If God knew that Satan would rebel and Adam and Eve would sin, why did He create?

Started by peejayd10 pages

Originally posted by leonheartmm
do u respect the stoning of women? how about pedophelia? what about the right of the parents to beat children?

after all these are BELEIFS held by many people.

lesson being? just because sumthing is sum1's beleif does not mean it shud be respected or deserves respect.

* belief and opinion are two different things... stoning of women, sorry, i don't know what this is...

* pedophilia is not a belief but a sexual act, desire or fantasy to a child... and yes, this is bad...

* the right of the parents to beat children... this might pass to be a belief... parents have different beliefs in disciplining their children, so long as the discipline is applied with love, it's ok... it's wrong when you beat a child because of rage or with no apparent reason at all...

"He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him."
Proverbs 13:24

* the Bible/ King Solomon teaches us that if we love our children, we should discipline them, for them to be a good person when they grow up...

"Train up a child in the way he should go, And even when he is old he will not depart from it."
Proverbs 22:6

Originally posted by leonheartmm
NO1 shud respect christianity, it is harmful to the beleiver and to those around him{including the greater non beleiving world}. the beleif itself contains a lot of objective evil.

* the Christianity in the Bible teaches love, respect, and many good things... i don't what kind of "christianity" you have in mind...

Originally posted by leonheartmm
there IS a difference between oppinions supported by facts and oppinions challenged by facts.

* yes, that's true... but opinions does not necessarily have to be supported by facts... only by morals or personal beliefs... 😉

Originally posted by peejayd
* the Christianity in the Bible teaches love, respect, and many good things... i don't what kind of "christianity" you have in mind...

It's simple, in his world that's the equivalent of baby rape.

Originally posted by ushomefree
This is a two-part question. The first part is “Did God know Satan would rebel and Adam and Eve would sin?” The answer lies in what the Bible teaches about God’s knowledge. We know from Scripture that God is omniscient, which literally means “all-knowing.” Job 37:16, Psalm 139:2-4; Psalm 147:5, Proverbs 5:21, Isaiah 46:9-10, and 1 John 3:19-20 leave no doubt that God’s knowledge is infinite and that He knows everything that has happened in the past, is happening now, and will happen in the future.

Looking at some of the superlatives in these verses—“perfect in knowledge”; “his understanding has no limit”; “he knows everything”—it is clear that God’s knowledge isn’t merely greater than our own, but it is infinitely greater. He knows all things in totality. Not only that, but Isaiah 46:10 declares He not only knows everything, but He controls everything as well. How else could He “make known” to us what would happen in the future and state unequivocally that His plans will come to pass? So did God know that Adam and Eve were going to sin? Did He know Lucifer would rebel against Him and become Satan? Yes! Absolutely! Were they out of His control at any time? Absolutely not.

If God’s knowledge is not perfect, then there is a deficiency in His nature. Any deficiency in God’s nature means he cannot be God, for God’s very essence requires the perfection of all His attributes. Therefore, the answer to the first question must, by necessity, be “yes.”

Moving on to the second part of the question, “Why did God create Satan and Adam and Eve knowing ahead of time they were going to sin?” This question is a little trickier because we are asking a ‘why’ question, to which the Bible doesn’t usually provide comprehensive answers. Despite that, we should be able to come to a limited understanding if we examine some biblical passages.

To begin, we have already seen that God is omniscient and nothing can happen outside of His knowledge. So if God knew that Satan would rebel and fall from heaven and Adam and Eve would sin, and yet He created them anyway, it must mean that the fall of mankind was part of God’s sovereign plan from the beginning. No other answer makes sense given what we have been saying thus far.

Now we must be careful to note that Adam and Eve falling into sin does not mean that God is the author of sin, nor that he tempted Adam and Eve to sin (James 1:13). The fall serves the purpose of God’s overall plan for creation and mankind. This, again, must be the case or else the fall of mankind would never have happened.

If we consider what some theologians call the ‘meta-narrative’ (or over-arching story-line) of Scripture, we see that biblical history can be roughly divided into three main sections: 1) paradise (Genesis 1-2); 2) paradise post (Genesis 3 - Revelation 20); 3) paradise regained (Revelation 21-22). By far the largest part of the narrative is devoted to moving from paradise lost to paradise regained.

At the center of this meta-narrative is the cross. The cross was planned from the very beginning (Acts 2:23). It was foreknown and foreordained that Christ would go to the cross and give His life as a ransom for many (Matthew 20:28)—those chosen by God’s foreknowledge and predestined to be His people (Ephesians 1:4-5).

Reading Scripture very carefully and taking what has been said so far, we are led to the following conclusions:

1. The rebellion of Satan and the fall of mankind were foreknown and foreordained by God.

2. Those who would become the people of God, the elect, were foreknown and foreordained by God.

3. The crucifixion of Christ, as atonement for God’s people, was foreknown and foreordained by God.

So we are left with the following questions: Why create mankind with the knowledge of the fall? Why create mankind knowing that only some would be ‘saved?’ Why send Jesus knowingly to die for a people that knowingly fell into sin? From man’s perspective, it doesn’t make sense. If the meta-narrative moves from paradise to paradise lost to paradise regained, why not just go straight to paradise regained and avoid the whole paradise lost interlude?

The only conclusion we can come to in view of the above assertions is that God’s purpose was to create a world in which His glory could be manifest in all its fullness. The glory of God is the overarching goal of creation. In fact, it is the overarching goal of everything He does. The universe was created to display God’s glory (Psalm 19:1), and the wrath of God is revealed against those who fail to glorify God (Romans 1:23). Our sin causes us to fall short of God’s glory (Romans 3:23), and in the new heaven and new earth, the glory of God is what will provide light (Revelation 21:23). The glory of God is manifest when His attributes are on perfect display, and the story of redemption is part of that.

The best place to see this in Scripture is Romans 9:19-24. Wrath and mercy display the riches of God’s glory, and you can’t get either without the fall of mankind. Therefore, all of the above assertions—fall, election, redemption, atonement—serve the purpose of glorifying God. When man fell into sin, God’s mercy was immediately displayed in not killing him on the spot. God’s patience and forbearance were also on display as mankind fell deeper into sin prior to the flood. God’s justice and wrath were on display as He executed judgment during the flood, and God’s mercy and grace were demonstrated as he saved Noah and his family. God’s wrath and justice will be revealed in the future when He deals with Satan once and for all (Revelation 20:7-10).

The ultimate exhibition of God’s glory was at the cross where His wrath, justice, and mercy met. The righteous judgment of all sin was executed at the cross, and God’s grace was on display in pouring His wrath for sin on His Son, Jesus, instead of on us. God’s love and grace are on display in those whom He has saved (John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9).

In the end, God will be glorified as His chosen people worship him for all eternity with the angels, and the wicked will also glorify God as His justice and righteousness will finally be vindicated by the eternal punishment of all unrepentant sinners (Philippians 2:11). None of this could have come to pass without the rebellion of Satan and the fall of Adam and Eve.

The classic objection to this position is that God’s foreknowledge and foreordination of the fall does damage to man’s freedom. In other words, if God created mankind with full knowledge of the impending fall into sin, how can man be responsible for his sin? The best answer to this question can be found in the Westminster Confession of Faith chapter III:

“God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established” (WFC, III.1)

What this is saying is that God ordains future events in such a way that our freedom and the working of secondary causes (i.e., laws of nature) are preserved. Theologians call this “concurrence.” God’s sovereign will flows concurrently with our free choices in such a way that our free choices always result in the carrying out of God’s will (when I say ‘free choices’ what I mean is that our choices are not coerced by outside influences).

Wrapping this up, God knew that Satan would rebel and Adam and Eve would sin in the Garden of Eden. With that knowledge, God still created Lucifer and Adam and Eve because creating them and ordaining the fall was part of His sovereign plan to manifest His glory in all its fullness. Even though the fall was foreknown and foreordained, our freedom in making choices is not violated because our free choices are the means by which God’s will is carried out.

If God knew that Satan would rebel and Adam and Eve would sin, why did He create them?

He did it for the lulz srug

He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him."
Proverbs 13:24
*the Bible/ King Solomon teaches us that if we love our children, we should discipline them, for them to be a good person when they grow up...
"Train up a child in the way he should go, And even when he is old he will not depart from it."
Proverbs 22:6

personally i don't know whats the big deal about discipling your children. i mean, sheesh, look at the children of east and west and tell me which ones are more well-behaved. best yet, the eastern children don't chuck their parents in old homes to rot when they grow up but take care of them (or atleast did anywa).
hitting a child for any reason BESIDES discipline is bad. but say whatever you want, but a slap or two here and there won't mentally scar them. the only way they get mentally scared is when the hitting is done for other reasons.

the whole thing's exaggerated and blown out of proportion in some countries imo.

NO1 shud respect christianity, it is harmful to the beleiver and to those around him{including the greater non beleiving world}. the beleif itself contains a lot of objective evil.

i disagree. i'm not a christian but i respect the religon and all other religions. all one has to do is realize what the religion is saying and where people are manupilating it. i know lots and lots of christians and i think they are nice people.

no disrespect intended to anyone, but i'm disheartened with this new trend of insulting religions. its not cool. i'm up for jokes but there are people who are seriously mocking it. christianity and islam are probably the two religions most poked fun at. worse part is, the majority is suffering for the actions of the few.

~Sado

Originally posted by Sado22

no disrespect intended to anyone, but i'm disheartened with this new trend of insulting religions. its not cool. i'm up for jokes but there are people who are seriously mocking it. christianity and islam are probably the two religions most poked fun at. worse part is, the majority is suffering for the actions of the few.

~Sado

Hey thats pretty intelligent and I agree with that. durhulk

Originally posted by Sado22
worse part is, the majority is suffering for the actions of the few.

~Sado

* very true... 😉

Hey thats pretty intelligent and I agree with that.

Frank Castle came in my dreams and taught me that 💃

and where the phuck are the new pics for the Punisher RT?! 😠

Originally posted by peejayd
* belief and opinion are two different things... stoning of women, sorry, i don't know what this is...

* pedophilia is not a belief but a sexual act, desire or fantasy to a child... and yes, this is bad...

* the right of the parents to beat children... this might pass to be a belief... parents have different beliefs in disciplining their children, so long as the discipline is applied with love, it's ok... it's wrong when you beat a child because of rage or with no apparent reason at all...

"He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is [b]careful to discipline him."
Proverbs 13:24

* the Bible/ King Solomon teaches us that if we love our children, we should discipline them, for them to be a good person when they grow up...

"Train up a child in the way he should go, And even when he is old he will not depart from it."
Proverbs 22:6

* the Christianity in the Bible teaches love, respect, and many good things... i don't what kind of "christianity" you have in mind...

* yes, that's true... but opinions does not necessarily have to be supported by facts... only by morals or personal beliefs... 😉 [/B]

beleifs lead to actions.

"disciplining" children as u put it {i.e. child abuse to sane people} is also an ACT! people DONT{and SHUD not} respect the act, THATS why they dont RESPECT the beleif. no matter what an insane book says, HITTING your children is never EVER right. no1 shud respect it. or the stupid relegion which endorses it.

pedophelia is both an act and a beleif, the beleif is part of the mind of the pedophile. shud i respect it? absolutely not!

teaches love/respect and many good thing?! REALLY?! but i guess u just proved yourself wrong with sndorsing chil abuse. not to mention, bigotry, fear, delusion, sexism, mass murder, masochism, etc etc etc. thats the kind of christianity i have in mind

oppinions unsupported or outright DISproven by facts dont deserve to be RESPECTED no matter how strong the personal beleifs or personally dreamt up or dogmatic morals of the beleiver are.

point being, disrespecting christianity and the negetive relegiously endorsed actions of christians is a GOOD thing. that doesnt mean you disrespect individuals, unless they embody the negetive teachings, but just the relegion.

Originally posted by Sado22
personally i don't know whats the big deal about discipling your children. i mean, sheesh, look at the children of east and west and tell me which ones are more well-behaved. best yet, the eastern children don't chuck their parents in old homes to rot when they grow up but take care of them (or atleast did anywa).
hitting a child for any reason BESIDES discipline is bad. but say whatever you want, but a slap or two here and there won't mentally scar them. the only way they get mentally scared is when the hitting is done for other reasons.

the whole thing's exaggerated and blown out of proportion in some countries imo.

i disagree. i'm not a christian but i respect the religon and all other religions. all one has to do is realize what the religion is saying and where people are manupilating it. i know lots and lots of christians and i think they are nice people.

no disrespect intended to anyone, but i'm disheartened with this new trend of insulting religions. its not cool. i'm up for jokes but there are people who are seriously mocking it. christianity and islam are probably the two religions most poked fun at. worse part is, the majority is suffering for the actions of the few.

~Sado

actually a significant amount of children are mentally scarred whn hit EXACTLY for the social definition of "disciplining". traditional/relegious DISCIPLINE itself is a useless and abusive concept. no child shud be hit EVER. even if it doesnt mentally scar them for life, they have a right to not be hit. just like u have a right to not be hit by a stranger evem though it probably wont mentally scar u. ur endorsement of such ideals is frankly deplorable.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
bigotry, fear, delusion, sexism, mass murder, masochism, etc etc etc.

What's so bad about masochism?

its deplorable becuse you're not trying to see it from the eastern point of view. the thing is there are somethings that work for the west and somethings that work for us. whats really deplorable is either side shoving their ideals on the other side and phucking things up.

notice i didn't say "you western pvssies need to hit their children more". i'm not saying that. i'm just saying that the whole issue seems to be blown out of proportion from the west and more often than not I can't even go to a restaurant to eat a decent meal because children are no longer disciplined. eastern children are not only more well-behaved, they also tend to visit therapists less often and have lesser emotional and social problems. where I've lived (pakistani, china, india, mddle east), western children have a rep for being whiny brats, spoilt and uncultured and are usually easy to pick up in the street because not only being rowdy as hell but are also rude to anyone...including their parents.

of course, this can be owed to me not living in the west as of yet and maybe i might get a change of view if i go there. but as of yet, all the no-hitting children thing seems to do is mess a child up.

and lastly, i'm not saying drop kick your child and do an elbow drop on him or her. slap or two is enough, and that too only as last resort....which is what i'm saying when i say westerners are blowing it out of proportion and make eastern people look like pricks. you mention a slap and the whole world's like "ZOMG! OH NO! THAT B@STARD!" while all parent did was slap his child with a cushioned palm because he/she was really misbehaving and not listening at all.

its stupidity and emoness like this that i really hate. i'd love to see how westerners would react if easterner people come up and tell them and tell that they should concentrate on their family life more. when that happens, i keep hearing "eastern hegemony" and "narrowmindedness".

i call bullshit.

and answer me this: when was the last time you heard of a highschool shootout from the east as compared to the west?

~Sado

Originally posted by Sado22
its deplorable becuse you're not trying to see it from the eastern point of view. the thing is there are somethings that work for the west and somethings that work for us. whats really deplorable is either side shoving their ideals on the other side and phucking things up.

notice i didn't say "you western pvssies need to hit their children more". i'm not saying that. i'm just saying that the whole issue seems to be blown out of proportion from the west and more often than not I can't even go to a restaurant to eat a decent meal because children are no longer disciplined. eastern children are not only more well-behaved, they also tend to visit therapists less often and have lesser emotional and social problems. where I've lived (pakistani, china, india, mddle east), western children have a rep for being whiny brats, spoilt and uncultured and are usually easy to pick up in the street because not only being rowdy as hell but are also rude to anyone...including their parents.

of course, this can be owed to me not living in the west as of yet and maybe i might get a change of view if i go there. but as of yet, all the no-hitting children thing seems to do is mess a child up.

and lastly, i'm not saying drop kick your child and do an elbow drop on him or her. slap or two is enough, and that too only as last resort....which is what i'm saying when i say westerners are blowing it out of proportion and make eastern people look like pricks. you mention a slap and the whole world's like "ZOMG! OH NO! THAT B@STARD!" while all parent did was slap his child with a cushioned palm because he/she was really misbehaving and not listening at all.

its stupidity and emoness like this that i really hate. i'd love to see how westerners would react if easterner people come up and tell them and tell that they should concentrate on their family life more. when that happens, i keep hearing "eastern hegemony" and "narrowmindedness".

i call bullshit.

and answer me this: when was the last time you heard of a highschool shootout from the east as compared to the west?

~Sado

errrr, i was born and have lived my entire life in pakistan...................in a traditional family............................................. your claims are ridiculous and untrue, i can say that with absolute confidence...being a pakistani and all........ and even if they were true, which they are not, they are illogical and unjustifiable..................

also. it is no measure of health to be well adjusted in a profoundly sick society. and india/pakistan/middle east are shining examples of PROFOUNDLY sick societies.

your claims are ridiculous and untrue, i can say that with absolute confidence...being a pakistani and all........ and even if they were true, which they are not, they are illogical and unjustifiable

my clams of what?
lesser social and emotional issues? less visitors to the therapist? less shootouts?

also. it is no measure of health to be well adjusted in a profoundly sick society. and india/pakistan/middle east are shining examples of PROFOUNDLY sick societies.

sick in many ways, yes. deplorable even, yes. but it depends in which way you mean it?

religous and moral hypocrisy? definitely
corrupt politicians and jaded public? sure

but how sick is that in comparison to America or UK or other eastern countries. world's goin to shit, man. no east or west involved in that.

Originally posted by Sado22
my clams of what?
lesser social and emotional issues? less visitors to the therapist? less shootouts?

less social/emotional issues? are u KIDDING ME?! sujugation of women, child abuse, no freedom of speech, majority living in rampant poverty, the likes of which never touches the first world, people having no social right to love or marry as they please and arranged marriages being the norm, no adequate social institutions like public schooling, predominantly corruptgovernment, no relegious freedom, insane taboos which hamper people from even trying to seek mental help because pathological modes of behaviour{i.e. beating children} are not considered wrong and normal biological imperetives are social and moral sins{i.e. masturbating and liking a person of the opposite sex or not agreeing with ur parents on runnfing your life} much less having the money to go to the APPALINGLY small number of qualified therapists, rampant violence and POSITIVELY NO RULE OF LAW, a police force that is 100% corrupt and criminal while criminals/gangsters/tribal lords run the streets and the governments???? what about the army owning 89% of all the wealth and no democracy?

as i said, absolutely ridiculous and ignorant claims.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
beleifs lead to actions.

"disciplining" children as u put it {i.e. child abuse to sane people} is also an ACT! people DONT{and SHUD not} respect the act, THATS why they dont RESPECT the beleif. no matter what an insane book says, HITTING your children is never EVER right. no1 shud respect it. or the stupid relegion which endorses it.

* hitting children without any reason is wrong... hitting children to discipline them is okay... reassess your moral standard, bro...

Originally posted by leonheartmm
pedophelia is both an act and a beleif, the beleif is part of the mind of the pedophile. shud i respect it? absolutely not!

* no one respects pedophilia, whatsoever... the Bible is against it too...

Originally posted by leonheartmm
teaches love/respect and many good thing?! REALLY?! but i guess u just proved yourself wrong with sndorsing chil abuse. not to mention, bigotry, fear, delusion, sexism, mass murder, masochism, etc etc etc.

* are you out of your freakin' mind, bro? when did i endorse those? 😱

Originally posted by leonheartmm
thats the kind of christianity i have in mind

* then, you're absolutely wrong...

Originally posted by leonheartmm
oppinions unsupported or outright DISproven by facts dont deserve to be RESPECTED no matter how strong the personal beleifs or personally dreamt up or dogmatic morals of the beleiver are.

* your so-called belief is getting far-fetched from what really is the Bible is teaching... the Bible promotes love and teaches Christians to do good to all people:

"So then, as we have opportunity, let us work that which is good toward all men, and especially toward them that are of the household of the faith."
Galatians 6:10

Originally posted by leonheartmm
point being, disrespecting christianity and the negetive relegiously endorsed actions of christians is a GOOD thing.

* the Bible never promotes evil things... if you see any person who is in that "negative religiously endorsed actions" of yours, and claiming to be a Christian, then that person is a fraud...

Originally posted by leonheartmm
that doesnt mean you disrespect individuals,

* this is the good thing...

Originally posted by leonheartmm
unless they embody the negetive teachings, but just the relegion.

* pure religion in the Bible is good... those people professing they are Christians but are doing otherwise are just like what mr.sado22 said: "the majority is suffering for the actions of the few"...

"They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work."
Titus 1:16

Originally posted by leonheartmm
less social/emotional issues? are u KIDDING ME?! sujugation of women, child abuse, no freedom of speech, majority living in rampant poverty, the likes of which never touches the first world, people having no social right to love or marry as they please and arranged marriages being the norm, no adequate social institutions like public schooling, predominantly corruptgovernment, no relegious freedom, insane taboos which hamper people from even trying to seek mental help because pathological modes of behaviour{i.e. beating children} are not considered wrong and normal biological imperetives are social and moral sins{i.e. masturbating and liking a person of the opposite sex or not agreeing with ur parents on runnfing your life} much less having the money to go to the APPALINGLY small number of qualified therapists, rampant violence and POSITIVELY NO RULE OF LAW, a police force that is 100% corrupt and criminal while criminals/gangsters/tribal lords run the streets and the governments???? what about the army owning 89% of all the wealth and no democracy?

as i said, absolutely ridiculous and ignorant claims.

"For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another."
Galatians 5:13

* the problem is your neglecting the good thing about law and belief... you absolutely reject in general... life is not black and white, there are "gray lines", you know... all those bad things you say that are happening, you all blame on a certain belief? however, my belief being a Christian does not ever promote anything like what you said...

* laws in the Bible are made not for the righteous:

"Knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
For fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine,"
I Timothy 1:9-10

* laws in the Bible are good if it was not abused:

"We know that the law is good if one uses it properly."
I Timothy 1:8

less social/emotional issues? are u KIDDING ME?! sujugation of women, child abuse, no freedom of speech, majority living in rampant poverty, the likes of which never touches the first world, people having no social right to love or marry as they please and arranged marriages being the norm, no adequate social institutions like public schooling, predominantly corruptgovernment, no relegious freedom, insane taboos which hamper people from even trying to seek mental help because pathological modes of behaviour{i.e. beating children} are not considered wrong and normal biological imperetives are social and moral sins{i.e. masturbating and liking a person of the opposite sex or not agreeing with ur parents on runnfing your life}

wow, all this happened because we hit our children?
dude you totally missed the point of what i'm saying. we're talking about chlidren disciplining. what does any of this have to do with child beating?

not to mention the fact that i love how we're automatically assuming that none of this goes around in the west. everything you mentioned has a flipside to it. are there as many gangs in pakistan or india or middle east as ameria? are drugs as rampant in the mid east as in the west? and what about crime? rape, theft, burglary all of these are pretty rampant in the west as well. there are somethings that are more rampant in the east, yes, but you're totally ignoring the flipside of the picture. west is far from the ideal society you seem to suggest it is.
you need to travel more, mate.

much less having the money to go to the APPALINGLY small number of qualified therapists, rampant violence and POSITIVELY NO RULE OF LAW, a police force that is 100% corrupt and criminal while criminals/gangsters/tribal lords run the streets and the governments???? what about the army owning 89% of all the wealth and no democracy?

criminals and gangsters don't exist in the west? postively no rule of law? in the middle east crime has always been low compared to the west. heck, in indo-pak countries, crime is still less.
you're making some serious sweeping generalizations here.

corrupt governments, i'd probably agree though. same with the army stuff. but that's pakistan only.

as i said, absolutely ridiculous and ignorant claims.

you're the one making rampant, sweeping generalizations here, mate. not to mention that you've practically turned this into a social commentary when we're originally talking about discipling children. in fact, you're making pretty weird generalizaton about christianity too. promoting bigotry and pedophilia? masochism and child abuse? damn, i didn't know Jesus and Tylor Durden were the same person.
i think you either visit way too many anti-christian/anti/islamic websites or you just don't seem to try to see the flipside of things. all religions promote only one thing: love and tolerance. for every anti-social comment you find in these scriptures (while ignoring context) there are several comments about love and tolerance and patience. what a few hardliners do, should not have any bearing on what the majority does. there are christian and muslims extremists, yes, there is a lot of religious hypocrisy going aorund, yes but people have always used religion as an excuse to do these things because people have always been good at that. its not religion's fault. islam nor christianity nor judaism never asked for women to be subjugated but manupilative asswipes took the story of Eve to stir bigot sentiments in people. Its best with islam because the Quran doesnt mention Eve as the one who ate the forbidden fruit but both of them (and in some cases Adam as the one who ate it and gave it to Eve)...still, it was misused by bigots to spew their poison
and people are good at it because people always beleive what they want to believe and see what they want to see. think about it, hitler used Neitzche's philosophy to carry out the holocaust and promote nazism. but was that Neitzche's real intention? were his books a treatise on genocide and racism?
Hell no. now notice how neitzche was an atheist but even his words were used to install all that hatred in people. now imagine how powerful manupilation the "word of god" really can be. THAT is the bt that you seem to miss.

~Sado

more often than not religion is manupilated because people are vastly ignorant of it. today most religious people are religious only by birth right and scarcely read up on their scriptures and practce their religion. both the quran and the bible are rich texts with a lot to offer, with great depth. depth that people don't understand because people barely read it, and when they do, they ignore the context of things. THAT again, is not the fault of religion. its frustrating to have people badmouth god and muhammed and jesus for the ignorance and stupidity of their followers. not to mention that most people i know who try to badmouth religious scriptures have such a shallow reading of it, that I'm not sure whether to facepalm myself or laugh.

and lastly, scriptures are all about personal interpretation. another reason why religion is so often manupilated is because religious teachers are going around telling everyone what to think, even though the idea of god is such a personal issue. christianity has been particularly guilty of this in the past where only the clergymen were allowed to have the bible...and today muslim scholars are going around expecting everyone to look at things the way they do.
again, its not the fault of religion or god but people themselves. people dont read enough of their religion, flock around the teacher and expect to be spoonfed everything all the while ignoring that the teacher is as fallible as they themselves are.

~Sado

Originally posted by Sado22
all religions promote only one thing: love and tolerance. for every anti-social comment you find in these scriptures (while ignoring context) there are several comments about love and tolerance and patience. what a few hardliners do, should not have any bearing on what the majority does.

* that's what they fail to understand, bro... they blatantly ignore the good (whether it's Bible or Qur'an), and when they encounter/read something that suits them, they take it and treat it like the country's constitution...

* no religion promotes evil... if there's evil manifesting in a person because of it, it's not religion's fault but the person itself who can discern what's right and what's wrong... 😉

Originally posted by peejayd
* hitting children without any reason is wrong... hitting children to discipline them is okay... reassess your moral standard, bro...

* no one respects pedophilia, whatsoever... the Bible is against it too...

* are you out of your freakin' mind, bro? when did i endorse those? 😱

* then, you're absolutely wrong...

* your so-called belief is getting far-fetched from what really is the Bible is teaching... the Bible promotes love and teaches Christians to do good to all people:

"So then, as we have opportunity, [b]let us work that which is good toward all men, and especially toward them that are of the household of the faith."
Galatians 6:10

* the Bible never promotes evil things... if you see any person who is in that "negative religiously endorsed actions" of yours, and claiming to be a Christian, then that person is a fraud...

* this is the good thing...

* pure religion in the Bible is good... those people professing they are Christians but are doing otherwise are just like what mr.sado22 said: "the majority is suffering for the actions of the few"...

"They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work."
Titus 1:16

"For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another."
Galatians 5:13

* the problem is your neglecting the good thing about law and belief... you absolutely reject in general... life is not black and white, there are "gray lines", you know... all those bad things you say that are happening, you all blame on a certain belief? however, my belief being a Christian does not ever promote anything like what you said...

* laws in the Bible are made not for the righteous:

"Knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
For fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine,"
I Timothy 1:9-10

* laws in the Bible are good if it was not abused:

"We know that the law is good if one uses it properly."
I Timothy 1:8
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didnt u hear what i said? hitting children FOR any reason is wrong, please dont debate this ridiculious stance of yours.

some individuals DO respect pedophelia{specially in the past, aisha was 8-9 when muhammad married her}. shud their beleifs be respected?

the wrest is falsified claims and quotations from a falsified book?

discrediting and exposing any negetive ideology/dogma/tradiotion and relegion {i.e. christianity} remains a GOOD thing.