I keep it in a jar under my bed Why would I be on ignore with anyone? (excluding that dick Anderson)
And I was merely pointing out that the Exile can't just be an 'average jedi', because someone explicitly states she was powerful at her weakest. And that quote comes from the orders battlemaster, so we can't just brush it off as naivete or bias. I kept the quote becuase I knew you would one day claim the Exile was average, and that it would come in handy to prove you wrong.
Originally posted by NephthysI keep it in a jar under my bedWhy would I be on ignore with anyone? (excluding that dick Anderson)And I was merely pointing out that the Exile can't just be an 'average jedi', because someone explicitly states she was powerful at her weakest. And that quote comes from the orders battlemaster, so we can't just brush it off as naivete or bias. I kept the quote becuase I knew you would one day claim the Exile was average, and that it would come in handy to prove you wrong.
He said she had a powerful connection to the force. How does this translate into her being a powerful jedi or force user? Not only does the quote not do anything for your case, but it makes your arrogance misplaced.
How can one have a powerful connection to the force and not therefore be powerful in the force, the two are mutually exclusive. It would be like me saying someones really good at fighting with a fencing sword but isn't a good fencer. You being a moron doesn't help your case either, but you don't see me going on about it. I wasn't arrogant at all btw, I was trying to have a civil debate, but oh, you just hate those don't you? Well guess what, baby got his way asshat.
Originally posted by Nephthys
How can one have a powerful connection to the force and not therefore be powerful in the force, the two are mutually exclusive. It would be like me saying someones really good at fighting with a fencing sword but isn't a good fencer. You being a moron doesn't help your case either, but you don't see me going on about it. I wasn't arrogant at all btw, I was trying to have a civil debate, but oh, you just hate those don't you? Well guess what, baby got his way asshat.
My contention was that the Exile is just an average Jedi. Your contention is that she had a powerful connection to the force. You're rebutting A with B. She can be an average Jedi with a powerful connection to the force. It just means she lacks force knowledge and various techniques.
You cant be an average anything if your powerful though. Exhibit A would be Anakin, a guy who clearly lacks mastery and techniques, and yet managed to defeat one of the most powerful and skilled Sith ever, Dooku, merely becuase he was powerful. Is he an average jedi? No. He's a very powerful jedi. Exhibit B would be young Zannah, a girl with little training, and yet her power makes her very un-average. Unless you think an average force-user could levitate and disintergrate arms. Heck Exhibit C could be Revan, a guy with bare months (if that) of training, and yet was able to defeat Malak multiple times.
The Exiles feats speak for themselves, she's defeated many sith lords and warriors including 3 Dark Lords, wiping out a whole sith faction practically by herself. NO average anything could have done that. Unless you can think of anyone else who wades through sith warriors who have specifically been stated to be able to match your strength in the force.
Finally, her disciples re-built the Jedi order, so she must have at least average force and saber knowledge. Even the fact that she can train others is proof of that. Average knowledge + strong power= Not average= powerful
Btw, thank you for not getting angry and for acting in a civil manner, that was nice of you.
Ok, i will state a few things from KOTOR 2: Nihilus is the Lord of Hunger, he originally fed on individuals, the sith assassins that pursue us have the same ability, but his is the perfection of it, to feed on planets at a time, Sion is the Lord of Pain, he is not a being of flesh and blood, but something else (which is why Atton thinks he sleeps with vibroblades) and he is only alive through his hatred of all things living. (both were jedi that were generals in Revans army during the mandalorian wars that barely survived the activation of the mass shadow generator, which explains why they fell to the dark side and why they have odd appearences) And there must ALWAYS be a Darth Traya, the one who betrays those who had betrayed her, betraying more in the process, which she did to the Exile. I think you may not be remembering this statement :" When you look at Revan, it is like looking at the heart of the Force. When i look at you, i see the DEATH of the Force." meaning Traya would eventually betray the Exile to destroy the Force itself, because that is the one thing she desires, she says so on Malachor V. And Traya knew Revan because she trained him......... yes she did
Originally posted by Incanus
Ok, i will state a few things from KOTOR 2
Originally posted by Incanus
Sion is the Lord of Pain, he is not a being of flesh and blood, but something else (which is why Atton thinks he sleeps with vibroblades) and he is only alive through his hatred of all things living. (both were jedi that were generals in Revans army during the mandalorian wars that barely survived the activation of the mass shadow generator, which explains why they fell to the dark side and why they have odd appearences)
And there must ALWAYS be a Darth Traya,
I think you may not be remembering this statement
" When you look at Revan, it is like looking at the heart of the Force.
When i look at you, i see the DEATH of the Force." meaning Traya would eventually betray the Exile to destroy the Force itself, because that is the one thing she desires, she says so on Malachor V.
And Traya knew Revan because she trained him......... yes she did
Originally posted by Nephthys
You cant be an average anything if your powerful though. Exhibit A would be Anakin, a guy who clearly lacks mastery and techniques, and yet managed to defeat one of the most powerful and skilled Sith ever, Dooku, merely becuase he was powerful. Is he an average jedi? No. He's a very powerful jedi. Exhibit B would be young Zannah, a girl with little training, and yet her power makes her very un-average. Unless you think an average force-user could levitate and disintergrate arms. Heck Exhibit C could be Revan, a guy with bare months (if that) of training, and yet was able to defeat Malak multiple times.
The Exiles feats speak for themselves, she's defeated many sith lords and warriors including 3 Dark Lords, wiping out a whole sith faction practically by herself. NO average anything could have done that. Unless you can think of anyone else who wades through sith warriors who have specifically been stated to be able to match your strength in the force.
Finally, her disciples re-built the Jedi order, so she must have [b]at least average force and saber knowledge. Even the fact that she can train others is proof of that. Average knowledge + strong power= Not average= powerful
Btw, thank you for not getting angry and for acting in a civil manner, that was nice of you. [/B]
No need, you're genuinely trying and not making a fool out of yourself like Nai.
Hey, i was just stating stuff as i remember them, so the Sion thing i got messed up on, it been a few months since i got to the end again cuz i cant plasy much, but it was saied by Traya in the Trayus Academy at the heart of Malachor V, so check the game, dont ask me, i just happened to know that stuff cuz i got a high enough influence with Kreia. And if some1 is "the death of the force" then they have to be pretty powerful, or Nihilus may have been the death of the force cuz i think he was a wound then he became a hole in the force.
For the record im not mad at you im just stating the facts about your post.
Originally posted by Incanus
Hey, i was just stating stuff as i remember them, so the Sion thing i got messed up on, it been a few months since i got to the end again cuz i cant plasy much, but it was saied by Traya in the Trayus Academy at the heart of Malachor V, so check the game, dont ask me, i just happened to know that stuff cuz i got a high enough influence with Kreia. e.
I know how to get the information and have done so, you could just look it all up on youtube instead of playing through it...
. And if some1 is "the death of the force" then they have to be pretty powerful
Well, the fact that she was able to form force bonds in maybe a few hours, AND the fact that she survived the activation of the mass shadow generator when she actually had bonds to mandalorians she didnt know, and every time some1 died, part of her died, and she survived, uh, would any one else say, 100,000 to 1,000,000 deaths at one time, and barely survived because she cut herself off from the force.
He managed to defeat Dooku because he tapped into his rage and beat him in lightsaber combat.
Fair enough on that one.
Zannah is anything but an average force user unless you failed to read either of the novels.
That was the point, that she didn't have any training, but she was still capable of extreme feats well above the average becuase of her powerful connection to the force.
Revan didn't have months of training, he had years of training, and maybe 1-2 years of ancient sith techniques nobody knew. None of the examples you have listed could be considered remotely legitimate.
No he didn't. The Revan that defeated Malak only had weeks (as master Zhar says) of training before s/hes sent out to fight Malak. If your implying that s/he regained her/him memories before the fight let me remind you that Bastila, who has a bond with Revan, states beforehand that its likely Revans memories will never return. So unless they did on the star forge (which can't be proven), it was a neophyte Revan that beat Malak using raw power.
This is just retarded. Do you understand the concept of game mechanics? That would take Nihilus out of the equation.
Why? Nihilus was weakened, but even if he was only at 30% he'd still be more of a match for an average jedi (and Mandalore), given his extreme power.
We have NO idea how she defeated Sion so he's questionable.
But she still defeated him. It would take great power to hold off a enraged Sith Lord on a Darkside Force Nexus long enough to Dun Moch him. Plus its implied that she held his own when Sion says,' no matter how many times you strike me down, when I am empowered by this world blah blah'
And Kreia hardly gave it her best effort to defeat her favorite student.
Thats just your bias opinion that flies in the face of canon. A half hearted Kreia would own even a master on Malachor.
Her disciples? You mean other Jedi who took the Jedi knowledge that already existed and...Expanded it? Again, this is retarded.
No, I mean Atton, the Disciple and Bao Dur, the 3 who were personally trained by the Exile into jedi and who were the only jedi left in the galaxy except Bastila to rebuild the order. That the Exile even possessed the skills to train others in a testament to her worth.
Personally though, I fail to see why you would think of her as merely average in the first place. If its that quote from Vrook, the source does have a rather obvious grudge against its subject, and its talking about the old exile and its only referring to her skills as a jedi (as in, peacekeeper) not her skills as a combatant.
Originally posted by Nephthys
How can one have a powerful connection to the force and not therefore be powerful in the force, the two are mutually exclusive.
no theyre not. "stronger" is a relative term. just because you might be stronger then me in my opinion doesnt mean youre a very strong person in general. youre just strong from my point of view.
Originally posted by Nephthys
That was the point, that she didn't have any training, but she was still capable of extreme feats well above the average becuase of her powerful connection to the force.
No he didn't. The Revan that defeated Malak only had weeks (as master Zhar says) of training before s/hes sent out to fight Malak. If your implying that s/he regained her/him memories before the fight let me remind you that Bastila, who has a bond with Revan, states beforehand that its likely Revans memories will never return. So unless they did on the star forge (which can't be proven), it was a neophyte Revan that beat Malak using raw power.
Why? Nihilus was weakened, but even if he was only at 30% he'd still be more of a match for an average jedi (and Mandalore), given his extreme power.
But she still defeated him. It would take great power to hold off a enraged Sith Lord on a Darkside Force Nexus long enough to Dun Moch him. Plus its implied that she held his own when Sion says,' no matter how many times you strike me down, when I am empowered by this world blah blah'
Thats just your bias opinion that flies in the face of canon. A half hearted Kreia would own even a master on Malachor.
No, I mean Atton, the Disciple and Bao Dur, the 3 who were personally trained by the Exile into jedi and who were the only jedi left in the galaxy except Bastila to rebuild the order. That the Exile even possessed the skills to train others in a testament to her worth.
Personally though, I fail to see why you would think of her as merely average in the first place. If its that quote from Vrook, the source does have a rather obvious grudge against its subject, and its talking about the old exile and its only referring to her skills as a jedi (as in, peacekeeper) not her skills as a combatant. [/B]
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Because nothing in KOTOR 2 stands out in terms of her being anything special, other than being a wound in the force, which isn't a testament of her powers but rather a fluke.
She crushed the exchange on two worlds. Stopped a mercenary invasion on Dantooine. Ended a civil war on Onderon and defeated three sith lords. Somehow I doubt anyone well versed in the mythos would confuse those accomplishments for average.
Also, it's pretty much stated that she had a strong connection to the force pre-Kotor2 and that the Masters spoke highly of her skills in battle, which would imply she's relatively powerful and gifted.
Mandalore also stated that she was every bit as exceptional as Revan. - "I thought that Revan was a singular Jedi, but now there's you [Exile]. With all our martial training, battles and ethics, even our greatest warriors are no match for you [Exile].
Sion is a brute, I doubt merely debating would have convinced him to give up. And we have evidence that being on dark side worlds makes him difficult to defeat.
Nihilus was still "too strong" even after he'd been weakened by the Exile.
And Kreia used 3 lightsabers and if you actually followed the plot, you'd know that taking it easy on the Exile would betray everything she ever intended for the Exile i.e. making her stronger than herself.
Originally posted by Allankles
She crushed the exchange on two worlds. Stopped a mercenary invasion on Dantooine. Ended a civil war on Onderon and defeated three sith lords. Somehow I doubt anyone well versed in the mythos would confuse those accomplishments for average.Also, it's pretty much stated that she had a strong connection to the force, which would imply she's relatively powerful and gifted.
Sion is a brute, I doubt merely debating would have convinced him to give up. And we have evidence that being on dark side worlds makes him difficult to defeat.
Nihilus was still "too strong" even after he'd been weakened by the Exile.
And Kreia used 3 lightsabers and if you actually followed the plot, you'd know that taking it easy on the Exile would betray everything she ever intended for the Exile i.e. making her stronger than herself.
seriously, Traya may have thought that someone may eventually be able to let the force "live" again, so she would make an uber wound, then use it to kill the force forever.
The wound bit was her lingering resentment towards the force, the Exile for her was beautiful because she did something Kreia wished she had done years ago.
As far as killing the force, that was primarily to force the Exile into a confrontation because the Exile respected Kreia as well, and had some affection towards her.
Whether she could have killed the force or not is left up in the air, we know that she could effect subtle actions that could echo across the galaxy, but we have no way of knowing if she could actually murder the force.
Suffice to say it gives the Exile ample motivation to raise arms against her mentor.
Kreia tells the Exile that she has to fight her with all her strength or she will die, Kreia wants the Exile to surpass her, she says it in the game and it was the underlining reason for her manipulations of the Exile.
She didn't have any thorough training which made her just average. Had she had a few more years of significant teachings, we wouldn't be debating this.
Please. She cannot be called average considering her feats, which are well above the norm for jedi and sith. She managed to protect herself from both the Force storm and Force bomb when even the greatest jedi and sith were simply overwhelmed by it. She also levitated and disintegrated an arm as well as killed two jedi, all purely on instinct. Heck, in POD the other apprentices were impressed when Bane managed a force choke! Clearly her strength elevates her above the norm, which was the initial point.
This is ridiculous. You're talking about the redeemed Revan? In that case only his memory was lost, not his techniques. Not to mention, he regained his memory rather quickly. And Bastila? Bastila wasn't the ONLY one who was surprised Revan's memory returned so quickly and that he had regained so much of his former self, so that is irrelevant.
*Snort* 🙄
Now who's acting retarded? Theres nothing to indicate Revan regained anything. When you go to Lehon, not only is it specifically mentioned by the Rakatan and Revan himself that he doesn't remember jack about before his capture, but Bastila then specifies on top of the temple that she doesn't know if Revan's memories will return, proving they haven't yet, and she has a force bond with revan so she knows whats going on in his head. And its only stated Revan completed his initial training quickly, not that he remembered anything.
You don't know the circumstances of his state of weakness. He was basically cancelled out by the Exile, allowing the other two combatants on the side of the Exile to sway the advantage.
No he wasn't. He was weakened from draining the Exile and still it is mentioned that he's too powerful to defeat, at which time Visas further weaken's him by will or sacrifice. So while she's busy its the Exile and Mandalore fighting Nihilus, so unless you think Mandalore beat him, the Exile did, with his (minimal) help.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBlgRFngTA8 7.00
Another fight with completely unknown circumstances and a lot of talking.
Don't ignore the fact she fought him and bested him before Dun Moching him. Sion even mentions that she's struck him down and that she's 'strong' and that she will surpass Traya's power. The same Traya that owned a dozen sith merely by walking past them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xioFuv0aZAo&feature=related
The term is biased, and I have nothing riding on this "opinion", but if you want to pull a Nai and make ridiculous accusations, you may. Not to mention your speculation is unfounded.
MY speculation is unfounded. YOUR speculation is unfounded! It go's against canon, the storyline, Trayas own words and her entire character. My speculation is held up by feats, that Traya defeated a dozen sith without any effort. She would own the average jedi master (and she has).
Explain how and when she trained them and in what specific field, and then explain how this makes her better than average.
She trained them on her ship and enough to wield a lightsaber (specifically Shii-cho) and wield the force. What this shows is that she has a basic (average) knowledge of jedi skills and that this, bolstered by her high strength in the force makes her a great Jedi, not an average one.
Because nothing in KOTOR 2 stands out in terms of her being anything special, other than being a wound in the force, which isn't a testament of her powers but rather a fluke.
You mean other than her numerous feats (which Allankles posted) that she 's constantly referred to as strong and powerful, that she defeated a darkside boosted Atris (Jedi Master) that she solo'd a sith academy, that Sion said she could easily become more powerful than Traya, that she then proved she was more powerful than Traya by beating her and that Traya names her as her greatest pupil, even above Revan?Yeah she's a regular Coleman Trebor. 🙄
Originally posted by Nephthys
Please. She cannot be called average considering her feats, which are well above the norm for jedi and sith. She managed to protect herself from both the Force storm and Force bomb when even the greatest jedi and sith were simply overwhelmed by it. She also levitated and disintegrated an arm as well as killed two jedi, all purely on instinct. Heck, in POD the other apprentices were impressed when Bane managed a force choke! Clearly her strength elevates her above the norm, which was the initial point.
*Snort* 🙄Now who's acting retarded? Theres nothing to indicate Revan regained anything. When you go to Lehon, not only is it specifically mentioned by the Rakatan and Revan himself that he doesn't remember jack about before his capture, but Bastila then specifies on top of the temple that she doesn't know if Revan's memories will return, proving they haven't yet, and she has a force bond with revan so she knows whats going on in his head. And its only stated Revan completed his initial training quickly, not that he remembered anything.
No he wasn't. He was weakened from draining the Exile and still it is mentioned that he's too powerful to defeat, at which time Visas further weaken's him by will or sacrifice. So while she's busy its the Exile and Mandalore fighting Nihilus, so unless you think Mandalore beat him, the Exile did, with his (minimal) help.
Don't ignore the fact she fought him and bested him before Dun Moching him. Sion even mentions that she's struck him down and that she's 'strong' and that she will surpass Traya's power. The same Traya that owned a dozen sith merely by walking past them.
MY speculation is unfounded. YOUR speculation is unfounded! It go's against canon, the storyline, Trayas own words and her entire character. My speculation is held up by feats, that Traya defeated a dozen sith without any effort. She would own the average jedi master (and she has).
She trained them on her ship and enough to wield a lightsaber (specifically Shii-cho) and wield the force. What this shows is that she has a basic (average) knowledge of jedi skills and that this, bolstered by her high strength in the force makes her a great Jedi, not an average one.
You mean other than her numerous feats (which Allankles posted) that she 's constantly referred to as strong and powerful, that she defeated a darkside boosted Atris (Jedi Master) that she solo'd a sith academy, that Sion said she could easily become more powerful than Traya, that she then proved she was more powerful than Traya by beating her and that Traya names her as her greatest pupil, even above Revan?Yeah she's a regular Coleman Trebor. 🙄
Way to incorporate gameplay mechanics into the discussion. I've had this discussion with Allankles and it's never gone anywhere. The only feat I will grant that was impressive was defeating Atris, and we don't know her power. She didn't solo a sith academy, and you don't know the circumstances of the Sion fight. And please don't start pretending that the Exile is superior to Revan.