Thor/Beta ray bill/Orion vs Surfer/Star dust/Superman

Originally posted by Allankles
Imagine Surfer shooting out a beam of the PC at Thor. Lets assume Thor dives out of the way of the oncoming beam. Following me so far? Now imagine if Surfer could bend and twist that beam to make it follow Thor, to ensure it strikes? Never ceasing until it struck him?

Imagine how much movement Thor would have to make to avoid such a beam? He's likely to get tagged after the first evasion, Thor doesn't accelerate his body like Superman.

😕 But surfer beams is faster than darkseid omega blast. If darkseid blast was so fast batman would move at light speed also since he has dodged them on numerous of occasions.

Now we do have instances of surfer shooting at thor and beta and both of them react so fast that they lift there hammers up to deflect the blast.

Originally posted by Allankles
You're missing the point, which is that Thor wouldn't be able to dodge such a beam beyond the first evasion, because he doesn't have that kind of acceleration.

Yes but it was more about timing and reflexes, no one has denied Thor has a measure of superspeed, but the feat was more about a single reaction. It doesn't put his combat speed on Supes level.

Why doesnt he have that kind of acceleration when he has flown 3 times the speed of light?

Originally posted by Allankles
You're missing the point, which is that Thor wouldn't be able to dodge such a beam beyond the first evasion, because he doesn't have that kind of acceleration.

No, you are clearly missing the point. Thor does not have any feats where he's flying around from beams because he does not need to. This is the same reason why Thor does not have feats where he is flying around someone hitting them. He does not need to and such a style would only hamper him. Superman, who is incredibly limited offensively for a high herald, needs to employ speed and manoeuvring. Thor, whose arsenal stems from the hammer he holds in his hand, does not.

Originally posted by Allankles
Yes but it was more about timing and reflexes, no one has denied Thor has a measure of superspeed, but the feat was more about a single reaction. It doesn't put his combat speed on Supes level.

It's a feat where it takes Thor a split second to get airborne.

How fast do you think he moves in the air. I want a direct answer to this.

There are two or three people in this thread who are bang out of order. if people don't settle down, there'll be warnings handed out.

thanks.

orion has 1 shotted supes
he killed DS
he is the superior here

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Exactly, Mongul is no different. His durability is below Thor's, he has less feats, he is weaker and so on. Blitzing him does therefore not make Superman capable of blitzing Thor. Especially when he did not really Blitz Mongul, but parried his attacks.

Mongul is quite durable or at least has very high damage soak. Regardles, durability is besides the point. Thor doesn't do what Supes did to Mongul there, he doesn't dodge every attack, he doesn't have that kind of speed.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
- Okay, that's great. The elite are not Thor however, not even close. Nor do they have anyone with impressive Superspeed.

The Elite had a meta human rating that rivaled Superman's, if not surpassed them (as one former checkmate member suggested). Considering the amount of damage they put on Supes, I'd say they are a valid measure, they pwned Superman for much of that story.

And as far their speed feats go, the Elite's speed blitzed several villains in the same story. Killing them before they knew what hit them. They also punked Superman, BFR'ing him in one instances before he could react.

Superman just changed gears (quite literally) with regards to combat speed in their last battle. Superman's superiority in the speed department is self evident.

Originally posted by carver9
Why doesnt he have that kind of acceleration when he has flown 3 times the speed of light?

Travel speed? Accelearation deals with how he propels his body in close quarters. You're lying to yourself if you think he can speed blitz the omega beams.

BFR'ing Superman is pretty simple....

There are a couple of things you simply cannot comprehend it seems. You're trying to put Thor in Superman's shoes and making a lot of wild claims, without actually being capable of retorting any of the points I make. I'm not sure if you're cowering away from a challenge or simply trying to be coy, or maybe even purposely misunderstanding what I'm writing here. But I am making arguments for why Thor would be able to counter a blitz. Instead of trying to counter this, you are making arguments for why Thor would not be able to blitz the people Superman did.

Why are you doing this? Do you not understand that Thor has a completely different fighting style? Still you fail to answer how fast you think Thor travels.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
No, you are clearly missing the point. Thor does not have any feats where he's flying around from beams because he does not need to.

Whether he needs to or not is besides the point, he does not possess the same split second acceleration that Superman does.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
It's a feat where it takes Thor a split second to get airborne.

How fast do you think he moves in the air. I want a direct answer to this.

It only takes a moment for transition between one action and the next, you don't need super speed for that. You also don't have to be able to speedblitz people to react quickly and instinctively to an on rushing chariot.

Superhuman reflexes for certain, but that wasn't what we were arguing.

Address ALL OF THE POINTS in my post at once.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
BFR'ing Superman is pretty simple....

There are a couple of things you simply cannot comprehend it seems. You're trying to put Thor in Superman's shoes and making a lot of wild claims, without actually being capable of retorting any of the points I make. I'm not sure if you're cowering away from a challenge or simply trying to be coy, or maybe even purposely misunderstanding what I'm writing here. But I am making arguments for why Thor would be able to counter a blitz. Instead of trying to counter this, you are making arguments for why Thor would not be able to blitz the people Superman did.

Why are you doing this? Do you not understand that Thor has a completely different fighting style? Still you fail to answer how fast you think Thor travels.

But I've carried my argument through. I asked you to keep in mind Superman's entire body of work. Somehow you have it in your head that grabbing a chariot riding Hermes by the collar is ample evidence that Thor can counter Superman's speed in a CQC scenario.

That wasn't even a cqc scenario, at least not as it pertains to Superman.

Speed can be nullified when used with such simplicity. They are so many angles your argument fails to address with regards to combat speed, I'm facing the difficulty of having too many counter arguments.

Simply put, when Superman's level of speed is used for evasion and combined with his fighting skills and experience the result is tremendously efficient. Again this is in a close quarters scenario. The truth is you've not shown that you can see all the angles. Fighting is all about speed.

Originally posted by Allankles
But I've carried my argument through. I asked you to keep in mind Superman's entire body of work. Somehow you have it in your head that grabbing a chariot riding Hermes by the collar is ample evidence that Thor can counter Superman's speed in a CQC scenario.

That wasn't even a cqc scenario, at least not as it pertains to Superman.

Speed can be nullified when used with such simplicity. They are so many angles your argument fails to address with regards to combat speed, I'm facing the difficulty of having too many counter arguments.

Simply put, when Superman's level of speed is used for evasion and combined with his fighting skills and experience the result is tremendously efficient. Again this is in a close quarters scenario. The truth is you've not shown that you can see all the angles. Fighting is all about speed.

This post reeks of ignorance. In your mind, Superman is fighting a boxer with flight, isn't he?

- Cannot see all angles. Thor's defence is impenetrable, his vortex can contain a big enough explosion to take out 1/5 of a universe. Nothing Superman can do will get through this. Thor's Mjolnir defence is absolute.

- Evasion. You cannot dodge an energy siphon. Sucking the life force, energy, soul out of Superman is something that he cannot dodge. There is no beam to run away from, since it's Superman's essence being PULLED into something.

- Movement. Like I've proven, accelerating quickly is easy for Thor. Mjolnir lets him maintain faster than light speed which he can navigate at. Your entire argument seems to be built around "Superman is a superior hand to hand combatant" and "Thor cannot fly fast!" both are wrong.

- You think that Thor's only incident of Super speed is the Hermes incident? Once again, something that anybody who has read Thor or even looked in his respect thread would realize is a stupid claim.

- "This is in a close quarters scenario" why? Hypnotism, shrinking, BFR, vortex trap and so on. There are tons of different ways Thor could dispatch of Superman that would not involve close combat. All Thor has to do is react to Superman and seeing as he can react to things much faster than the speed of light and has millenia worth of fighting experience, I reckon he'd do just fine.

Once again, how fast do you think Thor flies?

Originally posted by carver9
😕 But surfer beams is faster than darkseid omega blast. If darkseid blast was so fast batman would move at light speed also since he has dodged them on numerous of occasions.

Now we do have instances of surfer shooting at thor and beta and both of them react so fast that they lift there hammers up to deflect the blast.

Since when are the speed of energy beams specified? This is where your arguments hit a brick wall.

And Batman has never dodged any omega beams. The two times Darkseid even thought about shooting beams at Batman he killed him (killed him in Rock of Ages and killed his original body in FC).

The only Batman that has dodged the Omegas is the animated Bruce Timm Batman.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
This post reeks of ignorance. In your mind, Superman is fighting a boxer with flight, isn't he?

Once again, how fast do you think Thor flies?

😂 You seem to have lost all perspective. My entire argument was about Thor's speed and Superman's speed. I already know about Thor's esoteric abilities.

I thought we were on the same page, but it appears we were arguing different points. If Thor requires his shields doesn't that already speak to Superman's speed advantage?

What does Thor's ambiguous flight speed matter now? It doesn't seem to have factored into your last post.

Originally posted by Allankles
Since when are the speed of energy beams specified? This is where your arguments hit a brick wall.

And Batman has never dodged any omega beams. The two times Darkseid even thought about shooting beams at Batman he killed him (killed him in Rock of Ages and killed his original body in FC).

The only Batman that has dodged the Omegas is the animated Bruce Timm Batman.

Some beams moves slower than others and darkseid beams isnt that fast.

Based on what exactly? Seeing has he's had no problem tagging the people he wishes to tag.

Originally posted by Allankles
Based on what exactly? Seeing has he's had no problem tagging the people he wishes to tag.

basing it off of all the people that deflected his beams with ease.

Originally posted by Allankles
😂 You seem to have lost all perspective. My entire argument was about Thor's speed and Superman's speed. I already know about Thor's esoteric abilities.

I thought we were on the same page, but it appears we were arguing different points. If Thor requires his shields doesn't that already speak to Superman's speed advantage?

What does Thor's ambiguous flight speed matter now? It doesn't seem to have factored into your last post.

Someone seem to have poured all their stat points in dodging. Thor isn't as fast as Superman. He's just more than fast enough to keep up with him.

Don't get upset because Superman's sole argument on this forum for keeping up with heralds is "ZOMFG SPEED" where as the rest seem to have a multitude of different ways to approach a fight.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Someone seem to have poured all their stat points in dodging. Thor isn't as fast as Superman. He's just more than fast enough to keep up with him.

Don't get upset because Superman's sole argument on this forum for keeping up with heralds is "ZOMFG SPEED" where as the rest seem to have a multitude of different ways to approach a fight.

True statement. 💃

Originally posted by carver9
basing it off of all the people that deflected his beams with ease.

Right! So no valid argument.