Batman vs Spiderman

Originally posted by Mshinu

What of it? Wolvie gets hurt all the time

[/B]

Fair enough, however Spidey can still be knocked out by someone with human range strength and who knows how to punch.

Black belts are not worth anything, you have six yers old parading around with them now.

Anyway MA characters in the comics tend to do vell against superpowered ones, even outside crossovers. [/B]

You were the one saying Wolverine was his "daddy" or something, I thought you had read those issues to show that isn't the case.

It is possible, but even then he his highly durable. A man did punch him and Spiderman turned his face to avoid breaking the guys hand. He tanlges and takes hits from guys like Venom, Carnage, and Ock. I just don't see Cap doing more damage. Or being faster.

True, but "trained" fighers are even more vulnerable than super humans and even the best figher alive can be dropped by an unskilled guy given the right situation. The training gives you the tools to move your body effectively, it does NOT make you a superhuman.

y do people keep using real world instances to compare and contrast between comic book stories. Fact is MA skill is just as much a "superpower" as any other skill in a comic book and more often than not evens the battlefield when fighting an unskilled opponent

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
You were the one saying Wolverine was his "daddy" or something, I thought you had read those issues to show that isn't the case.

He IS spidey`s daddy, dominating him just like Cap does. Unlike Cap he can afford to risk getting hit by him.

It is possible, but even then he his highly durable. A man did punch him and Spiderman turned his face to avoid breaking the guys hand. He tanlges and takes hits from guys like Venom, Carnage, and Ock. I just don't see Cap doing more damage. Or being faster.

Peter said Cap`s punch felt like a pint sized a-bomb, seeing stars. A few of those would likely put him out.

True, but "trained" fighers are even more vulnerable than super humans and even the best figher alive can be dropped by an unskilled guy given the right situation. The training gives you the tools to move your body effectively, it does NOT make you a superhuman.

True, but what a trained person can do can seem superhuman to the general public. In the comics it even DOES make some characters superhuman with chi-amping and whatnot

Originally posted by Sin I AM
y do people keep using real world instances to compare and contrast between comic book stories. Fact is MA skill is just as much a "superpower" as any other skill in a comic book and more often than not evens the battlefield when fighting an unskilled opponent

All of these MA characters have had trouble with "plain ol' humans" as well, so that argument goes both ways.

Originally posted by Mshinu
He IS spidey`s daddy, dominating him just like Cap does. Unlike Cap he can afford to risk getting hit by him.

Peter said Cap`s punch felt like a pint sized a-bomb, seeing stars. A few of those would likely put him out.

True, but what a trained person can do can seem superhuman to the general public. In the comics it even DOES make some characters superhuman with chi-amping and whatnot

Coming from a person who has taken hits from guys like Hulk, Carnage, Thing, etc. I'd doubt it.

Guys like Karate Kid and SF characters I'd agree. Shin Akuma has jumped in space and broken a comet, I'd completely agree he stomps Spiderman. These guys have human limitations, and a lot of the "MA feats" we see people do (like breaking bricks), is really just physics in the works. When you do MA yourself you see how such things are possible (like using curved bricks).

Originally posted by Sin I AM
y do people keep using real world instances to compare and contrast between comic book stories. Fact is MA skill is just as much a "superpower" as any other skill in a comic book and more often than not evens the battlefield when fighting an unskilled opponent

I am inclined to agree with this. Comic book MA skill works pretty much like any other special power, and it is one Spiderman has problems countering.

Originally posted by Mshinu
I am inclined to agree with this. Comic book MA skill works pretty much like any other special power, and it is one Spiderman has problems countering.

Spiderman has beaten trained fighers, when he fights famous ones with big fanbases like these ones, they are going to make the fight look good on both sides. They could make a no name guy the master of all styles and he would lose pretty soundly. Spiderman beat the Dragon in his comics, a highly trained figher.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
You must not hvae read what I said, Spiderman webbing Logan up, tossing him out of a window, and smacking him away doesn't making him his "daddy" those fights are going to be made "even" at best.

I believe those instances has been pretty well covered in a certain vs thread. No need to repeat it. At the very least Logan`s training closes the stat gap pretty well.

At least you can admit that Cap won't bea ble to afford being hit by him. Why do you want to continue to play the featwar game? He has beaten people these MA's haven't. (Why is this about Cap and Spiderman now that I think about it?)

I am not playing that game, just pointing out Cap has put spidey on his ass and Peter has a problem handling skilled martial artists.
Anyway abc logic sucks.

Right, it should be about Batman, not Cap.

Guys like Karate Kid and SF characters I'd agree. Shin Akuma has jumped in space and broken a comet, I'd completely agree he stomps Spiderman. These guys have human limitations, and a lot of the "MA feats" we see people do (like breaking bricks), is really just physics in the works. When you do MA yourself you see how such things are possible (like using curved bricks).

Breaking bricks are party tricks with little meaning in a fight. If you have any training you should know that.

Plenty of comic book characters below Karate Kid levelu uses MA efficiently against superhumans. It makes them hable to hang with them even if they do not posess other powers. You cannot bispute that fact.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
On Karate Kid's Level or Akuma's level when you are shooting ki blasts and such out (or bursting islands), I would be more inclined to agree. However we compare worldly martial arts and lifting feats to the real world because comics (especially on street level) revolve around real world. These are Martial artists who specialize in things like boxing and judo. These aren't superhuman martial arts. And the real advantage of MA comes to when you make your own style out of it. Something Spiderman has. (Although he could benefit from some MA training).

All of these MA characters have had trouble with "plain ol' humans" as well, so that argument goes both ways.

Well thats an inaccurate comparison then honey. Even basic skills that street-level martial artist do are leagues above what a real world MA can possibly achieve. You should take that outta the equation, someone made a comment earlier about a expert MA in the real world not being able to drop an elephant, yet im sure positive any street coul;d do it with a pressure point attack, i can name 10 off the top of my head. It simply bridges the gap, and in Parkers case eclipses his stats.

True Spiderman has hisd own style but its so basic, that experienced martial artists can easily counter it. I get tired of the "holding" back excuse, its gay. I personally think its a cop-out for him being "superhuman" and not being able to beat Cap, DD, Bullseye, Elektra, Iron Fist etc, etc etc...his style just isnt devastating enough.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
How so? Any punch that a lower MA throws is really the same old haymaker that an untrained character throws, many times readers assume is more than it is. But truly the tactics is where it is at, and Batman and Spiderman both have sound tactics.

Seriously, have you ever read a comic book fight where the physics of the fight was sound? MA works quite differently in the comics than in the real world.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
And the real advantage of MA comes to when you make your own style out of it. Something Spiderman has. (Although he could benefit from some MA training).

You benefit from making the style your own WHEN you have developed solid BASICS. Spidey does not have that.

Originally posted by Mshinu
I believe those instances has been pretty well covered in a certain vs thread. No need to repeat it. At the very least Logan`s training closes the stat gap pretty well.

I am not playing that game, just pointing out Cap has put spidey on his ass and Peter has a problem handling skilled martial artists.
Anyway abc logic sucks.

Right, it should be about Batman, not Cap.

Breaking bricks are party tricks with little meaning in a fight. If you have any training you should know that.

Plenty of comic book characters below Karate Kid levelu uses MA efficiently against superhumans. It makes them hable to hang with them even if they do not posess other powers. You cannot bispute that fact. [/B]

I have no problem with characters "hanging" with othes. They all "hang" with characters like Hulk, but that doesn't mean they can beat him.

Originally posted by Mshinu
Seriously, have you ever read a comic book fight where the physics of the fight was sound? MA works quite differently in the comics than in the real world.

And no they aren't "vastly different" they still use pressure point attacks, nerve strickes, grappling, and pressure locks. They do it much better than you or I do, but things like equilibrium still come into play.

Originally posted by Mshinu
You benefit from making the style your own WHEN you have developed solid BASICS. Spidey does not have that.

Spiderman's body does NOT work and move like an average person therefore his movement doesn't need to mimic those, he just needs brushing up more more tactical type things, not saying he couldn't benefit from training, but seriously someone who has spent DECADES fighting doesn't have any basics? That's absurd.

I could take someone who has had to "survive" off of the streets without training and I could bet you he could beat someone "with MA training" who has had little to no fights, and I'd give it to that guy. Efficiency is where it counts and the better figher is the one who can consistently (or should conssitently) win, regardless of "skill" there are too many styles out there to say which ones are the best, they should flow together.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Well thats an inaccurate comparison then honey. Even basic skills that street-level martial artist do are leagues above what a real world MA can possibly achieve. You should take that outta the equation, someone made a comment earlier about a expert MA in the real world not being able to drop an elephant, yet im sure positive any street coul;d do it with a pressure point attack, i can name 10 off the top of my head. It simply bridges the gap, and in Parkers case eclipses his stats.

No, I was the one who made the comment, and I'm well aware about the difference between the human level MA and a Comic one, which is why I used the difference between an elephant and Spiderman, Spiderman could drop an elephant even easier than they could. His ability to drop a Comic MA is much greater than theirs is to drop him, and it does NOT eclipse far greater speed, more durabilitity, far greater strength, and precognition with 120 lb per millimeter tensile strength webbing that none of them can "break" with their strength. It doesn't really eclipse anything, it does allow them to "hang" with him however. If the physical gap was small say Logan's without healing, then I would be more inclined to agree.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
True Spiderman has hisd own style but its so basic, that experienced martial artists can easily counter it. I get tired of the "holding" back excuse, its gay. I personally think its a cop-out for him being "superhuman" and not being able to beat Cap, DD, Bullseye, Elektra, Iron Fist etc, etc etc...his style just isnt devastating enough.

Holding back excuse? That's what he does, and it's a part of his character. He doesn't really have to go "all out" anyways, and we've seen in a comic what happens when he does to guys like Kingpin (who are accomplished fighers, and even Stark upclose (although Stark would iwn here), not to mention how he performs against higher tiered characers (like Iron Man) CONSISTENTLY when he fights them, we can see the comparison.

Lastly none of these xxx beat xxx arguments are as valid on KMC because this is *not* a comic book, there is no plot device on here and none of the other silly things that get in the way like they do in comics. Put Batman vs Flash in a comic and Batman would drop him each and every time. Put him on here vs Flash and he loses in less time than it takes me to blink. Would that ever happen in a comic? No, not with two big name characters.

And when has he been unable to compete with those characters you mentioned (we are already talking about cap) Scans? Issue numbers?

I was reading the DD fight where he was hypnotized and he admitted he wouldn't be a match if Spiderman went all out, and he admitted the speed difference as well. Which is why I find it hard to trust a lot of members out there now, because many have been guilty in the past of lying, so when I read the issue myself I find a totally different story. So when you get the chance could you post scans and/or issues of the entire fight? I'd appreciate it greatly. But I have to go now.

Take care all, it's been fun.

Anyways.

Batman with prep still wins here.
🙂

Lol this has gone so off topic. I really do have to go though. 😆

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Well I agree about the bricks meaning little. Logan's "training" (that he doesn't use often" doesn't bridge the gap, it is his Superman healing ability and skeletal system that carries the weight in his fights.

He is able to tag the spider mostly because of skill, like other MAists Pether has fought.

Hmm, the gravity worked. And no they aren't "vastly different" they still use pressure point attacks, nerve strickes, grappling, and pressure locks. They do it much better than you or I do, but things like equilibrium still come into play.

Actually gravity doesn`t work even remotely in comic book fights. A good fighter stays in contact with the ground so he can put his weight behind his strikes. In comics they do it on their tiptoes or flying trough the air. It is a fantasy world.

Basics such as proper stances (spiderman has perfect balance and equilibrium), things such as standing properly (corrected by above), basic application of practical movement? Learning the "basics" doesn't take long, you can drill a person for a few short weeks and they would have the bare basics down enough to survive, but the mastery of those abilities to the point where you can do them without thinking? That takes much, much longer.

Learning the basics even remotely takes years. It is such training spidey needs before he can even think about matching Bats or Cap in skill.

Spiderman's body does NOT work and move like an average person therefore his movement doesn't need to mimic those, he just needs brushing up more more tactical type things, not saying he couldn't benefit from training, but seriously someone who has spent DECADES fighting doesn't have any basics? That's absurd.

Spiderman still has two arms and two feet so he can be taught like anyone else. He has just made some made some rough chipping and reinforced his bad habits. Why do you think any proper art spends 90% of the time on technique? The only reason it works is his superhuman stats and the spider sense.

I could take someone who has had to "survive" off of the streets without training and I could bet you he could beat someone "with MA training" who has had little to no fights, and I'd give it to that guy. Efficiency is where it counts and the better figher is the one who can consistently (or should conssitently) win, regardless of "skill" there are too many styles out there to say which ones are the best, they should flow together.

Sure, someone who is used fo fighting will take a badly trained "ma guy" who has never taken a hit. What does that prove? The guys that get the better of Spidey are not badly trained. People with proper training and experience DO have an edge.

Styles haven`t really got anything to do with it since Peter has none.

Originally posted by Mshinu
Wrong, a fighter with a little training can easily pull his punches without sacrificing speed and accutracy. Light to none contact sparring a very common in in several sports. It is very easy to learn even on your own and spidey has lots of practice in it.

Originally posted by Mshinu

Wrong again. High level MA characters with human attributes does quite well against superhumans in comics. Especially aganinst untrained ones.

Originally posted by Mshinu

Quickilver is irrelevant to this topic.

Originally posted by Mshinu

Cap does not let him get that punch.

Originally posted by Mshinu

Also 10 years of fighting like spidey actually limits him to a certain level since he relies on instinct and never develop solid fighting basics. In other words he reinforces bad habits and wasteful moves as well as never learning to mask his intentions brodcasted by his body language.

Originally posted by Mshinu

Which is why good fighters HAS beaten him, ARE beating him and WILL continue to beat him unless he improves himself.

Originally posted by Mshinu

True, but if he learned to use it better and even ignote it at times when fighting he would do better. All good fighters know how to harness their instincts instead of being controlled by them.

Originally posted by Mshinu

Cap has put Spidey on his ass consistently. Clearly dominating him as if he were a little child just by the use of his skills. Live with it. Spiderman`s stats does not magically change this FACT. Your logic is seriously flawed.

Originally posted by SamZED
Yeah, that's why he almost broke Flash Tompsons skull when he tried it for the first time, 'cause its so easy hitting someone without hurting him when you can turn a tank into a pancacke with your bare fists. Imagine for a second that you are (for some unknown crazy reason, not the point) fighting a 8 year old kid. And you're trying to knock him down with your punches without seriously hurting him. You think your punches and your fighting would be as effective and fast as if you just jumped at him and started hitting him with full force without caring if you seriously injure him or not?

As you said, the first time. It takes SOME training but it is easily learned. As for 8 year old kids I work with them all the time so I know exactly what you are talking about.

if that superhuman is a dumb brawler who just got his powers and knows crap about fighting. And even then it is the superior speed that counts the most, not skills. Spider-man on the other hand has years of fighting experience and a uniq fighting style that is perfecr for someone with powers like that. Rogers got skills but is just inferior to Spider-man. So he loses.

Spidey`s "style" does not remotely make full use of his powers. He would be much more effective if it did. He needs proper training to get the basics just like everyone else.

Did you even bother to read the post?😬 That was an anology that proves - superior speed, strength, reflexes, agility, durability and years of fighting experience >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ma training.

LOL it certanly does not prove an absolute statement like that.
Spiderman does not have Quicksilver`s speed anyway.

Prove it. Spider-man is faster, Rogers can read his moves blah blah do whatever he wants but he he's not fast enough to counter every Spider-man's attack. So again, prove it.
shows how much you know. His fighting style uses ALL his supernatural abilities to the their fullest potential, that makes it a lot more effective than if he just studied, say karate.

If it used his ablilties to the fullest he would not be beaten like he has been so many times by MAists with human range attributes. He HAS been beaten by them and all the stats in the world won`t change it. Since spidey is "better" it must either be because of skill, luck or PIS. I`ll leave it to you to decide wich.

a lot of words that are supported by nothing. Spider's last fight with Kingpin shows exactly how "effective" years of ma training against a guy with super powers. Cap can train a 100 more years for all I care, Parker is still gonna be superior to him in speed strength durability reflexes and as I already proved that's what matters the most.

Nah you did not.

Never argued that, but Spider-man is a different case. It so happens that during a fight his instinct works better than good fighter's coordination. Why ordinary ma fighters cant rely only on instincts? Because it could fail them. spidersense on the other hand would give Parker the safest and most effective options. That's why he can fight, run, jump around and even swing with his eyes closed. Guys like Cap during a fight are forced to find the best options while Spider-man just KNOWS it thanks to his ss.

Since he always KNOWS the best options why does he still LOOSE?

MY logic is flawed? Fact? If I start t debating the way you do i would sound like "Spider-man beat Firelord! Fact! Not listening nananana!" Unfortunately for you this is a vs forum, not a comicbook. Here we do not take into concideration things like "Spider-man would hold back, doubt himself or refuse to fight at all that's why Cap would win JUST like it happened in comics" its much simplier than that. Read the rules. No PIS no CIS. Spider-man doesn't care that he's fighting "the living legend" and doesn't hold back. Who wins? Lets see. Strength - spider-man, speed - spider-man, durability - sp.. oh do I really have to do this again. Its obviously that Spider-man is the winner. And 10/10 that is. Not even a challenge for him. So once again, stop pretending you didn't hear me. SHOW me RANDOM Captain America feats that PROVE that his skill makes him unhittable even when he's fighting a faster and a stronger opponent. No PIS no CIS. Just feats. I'll wait.

Cap`s wins are pretty consistent. Or is it PIS simply because spidey lost? All characters loose some time, wolvie gets beaten constantly by Sabretooth for instance. Taskmaster has smashed his shield in Cap`s face using his own style iirc even

And Spidey taking firelord is as much PIS as Wolvie surviving a nuke. Let`s not drop to that level.

Originally posted by SamZED

Did you even bother to read the post?😬 That was an anology that proves - superior speed, strength, reflexes, agility, durability and years of fighting experience >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ma training.

Originally posted by Juntai
Report to the Spiderman vs Karate Kid thread and find out.

btw, the poll is hilarious, Peter stands little to no chance of winning in this scenario, and has almost as many votes.

spiderman..his spider sense would always keep him one step ahead of batman

plus since this is full potential, spiderman uses his super speed and super strength and super agility and punches batman's head off and wins in one hit.