Batman vs Spiderman

Originally posted by Mshinu
Even the big guns benefit greatly from MA skill. Hercules is a good example of this. Even gods would be beaten by far weaker guys if they did not hone their skills properly.

[b]

Unorthodox or no he still got four limbs tendons and muscles like the rest of us. Bats will read his movements before Spidey even knows what he is doing himself. The ability to do this and prevent others from reading yourself is one of the reasons those trained in the fighting arts seem to have unnatural speed. They see you coming from a mile away.

[b]

Sure he got potential, loads and loads of it. However he is not going to hone it past a certain level on his own. Getting to a level of skill remotely approaching MAists like Bats or Cap ON YOUR OWN is frankly not possile in a single lifetime. That is what teachers are for.

Characters really high up don't need MA as much, Juggs or Hulk for example.

The speed and reaction time is somewhat true, when you are familiar with a style, that is why BJJ dominated so long was because strikers were unfamiliar with how to counter it. They had to make a counter style. Plus Parker is too fast for Batman to react before him, especially with precog.

Good discussion though.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Oh yea, but that is simply MA skills, Spiderman has othe skills that his dexterity allows him to have, as well as versatility.

True

Characters really high up don't need MA as much, Juggs or Hulk for example.

Indeed they don`t need it until they meet someone who can stand up to them. I guess that is why Supes has picked up some skill

The speed and reaction time is somewhat true, when you are familiar with a style, that is why BJJ dominated so long was because strikers were unfamiliar with how to counter it. They had to make a counter style. Plus Parker is too fast for Batman to react before him, especially with precog.

Can`t comment on the UFC since I`ve never watched much of it. BJJ is an interesting art however.

Cap`s skill has let him outmaneuver and hit Peter good, no reason Bats couldn`t do the same.

Good discussion though.

Thanks. Good Night

Originally posted by Mshinu
True

[B]

Indeed they don`t need it until they meet someone who can stand up to them. I guess that is why Supes has picked up some skill

[B]

Can`t comment on the UFC since I`ve never watched much of it. BJJ is an interesting art however.

Cap`s skill has let him outmaneuver and hit Peter good, no reason Bats couldn`t do the same.

[B]

Thanks. Good Night

I don't know if Cap can outmaneuver Peter technically either.

Night.

Originally posted by Mshinu
As you said, the first time. It takes SOME training but it is easily learned. As for 8 year old kids I work with them all the time so I know exactly what you are talking about.

Originally posted by Mshinu

Spidey`s "style" does not remotely make full use of his powers. He would be much more effective if it did. He needs proper training to get the basics just like everyone else.

Originally posted by Mshinu

LOL it certanly does not prove an absolute statement like that.
Spiderman does not have Quicksilver`s speed anyway.

Originally posted by Mshinu

Nah you did not.

Originally posted by Mshinu

He HAS been beaten by them and all the stats in the world won`t change it. Since spidey is "better" it must either be because of skill, luck or PIS. I`ll leave it to you to decide wich.
Since he always KNOWS the best options why does he still LOOSE?

Originally posted by Mshinu

Cap`s wins are pretty consistent. Or is it PIS simply because spidey lost?

Originally posted by Juntai Report to the Spiderman vs Karate Kid thread and find out.

Originally posted by SamZED
You'd like it to work for the sake of your argument. But in reality it doesnt. If you're holding back in a fight and affraid to hurt your opponent it makes your attacks many times less effective. Fact. Dont even try to argue that.

I`ll say it again since you don`t get it. Anyone with a little experience can pull their punches without sacrificing speed or accuracy. You only inflict less damage. Since spidey has been doing this sucessfully for years with human opponents he should have no problem doing it against Cap who can take a bit of punishment anyway.

Yes it does and it's been mentioned a dozen times in comics. Training might help a little but the fact reamins - his natural abilitis combined with years of practice >>> ma training without this abilities..

If it was so he would not lose to street levelers with human range stats and better training than him.

Yes it does. Spider-man might not have Quicksilver's speed but he has OTHER powers that make him superior than Cap. That was just ANOTHER example that disproves your theory about ma training >>> superpowers

Try again, Spidey STILL gets beaten by MAists. Keep raving about his stats and spider sense, it won`t change what has happened on panel. He has trouble handling characters with real fighting skill.

Uh.. yeah I did. I made a claim that Spider-man has every possible physical advantage and clearly has what it takes to land a dozen punches (let alone one) on Cap without trying hard. You on the other hand provided nothing to support your "unhittable due to ma training" theory.

Again, Cap has in fact DONE what I say he can do. Spidey hits air and the shield.

You keep insisting that he's "been beaten" before or that "he loses" and that's supposed to prove something, even though I just showed you scans with Spider-man effortlessly pwning Daredevil and Kingpin (who are on Cap's level, maybe slightly below) just cause they made him pissed and he HELD BACK LESS than usual. He was still holding back but this time he was mad. Here goes your ma training >>> superpowers theory again. So again, if that makes you better sleep at night, Spider-man can lose to ma fighters if he's fighting at 20% of his abilities like he usually does when he fights opponents without superdurability.

The holding back argument is getting old. He DOES have a bad record against MAists all things concidered.

No it is not PIS, in this case its CIS and there's nothing wrong with us simply followig the rules of the forum. And the rules say the following:
"CIS refers to any natural mental limitations that characters impose upon themselves and reduce their ability to use their own skills and powers effectively." And that includes Firelord fighting Spider-man h2h instead of just blowing up the planet BECAUSE HE DIDN'T WANT TO HURT INNOCENT PEOPLE also it includes Spider-man holding back 3 times more than usual, questioning himself during the fight and not wanting to fight BECAUSE HIS OPPONENT WAS THE MAN HE ADMIRES, THE MAN HE LOOKED UP TO FOR HIS WHOLE LIFE.
Those are examples of CIS. So if no CIS we get two characters, one of whom is clearly more powerful than another in every possible way, so he wins. That's how it works in vs forum.

Spidey is not "clearly more powerful" than Bats or Cap, they have both taken down better men than Peter Parker.

All your posts are in short "spidey`s got better stats and should beat street all street lvlers because skill is crap and he is holding back and his losses does not count"

Pehaps eventually you will see the fact that MA skill in comics is pretty equal to any other superpower. Extreme skill in this fantasy world can put human characters on par with almost anyone.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Truth, but I don't know if it will work as well with Juggy and Hulk.

I can see some difficulties in them getting trained but there is no reason they could not benefit from skill. But as you said they don`t need it most of the time. If they don`t use it they will get rusty. MA skills need to be kept fresh.

I don't know if Cap can outmaneuver Peter technically either.

I`d say getting inside his guard and raining punches on him is outmaneuvering.

Originally posted by Mshinu
I`ll say it again since you don`t get it. Anyone with a little experience can pull their punches without sacrificing speed or accuracy. You only inflict less damage. Since spidey has been doing this sucessfully for years with human opponents he should have no problem doing it against Cap who can take a bit of punishment anyway.

Originally posted by Mshinu

If it was so he would not lose to street levelers with human range stats and better training than him.

Try again, Spidey STILL gets beaten by MAists. Keep raving about his stats and spider sense, it won`t change what has happened on panel. He has trouble handling characters with real fighting skill.

Originally posted by Mshinu

Again, Cap has in fact DONE what I say he can do. Spidey hits air and the shield.

Originally posted by Mshinu

The holding back argument is getting old. He DOES have a bad record against MAists all things concidered.

Originally posted by Mshinu

Spidey is not "clearly more powerful" than Bats or Cap, they have both taken down better men than Peter Parker.

Originally posted by Mshinu

All your posts are in short "spidey`s got better stats and should beat street all street lvlers because skill is crap and he is holding back and his losses does not count"

Originally posted by Mshinu

Pehaps eventually you will see the fact that MA skill in comics is pretty equal to any other superpower. Extreme skill in this fantasy world can put human characters on par with almost anyone.

Originally posted by SamZED
Tell it to Kingpin. Becuase what has has happened on pannel was a proof that superpowers > ma training unless there are reasons for a character with super powers to not fight at his fullest potential. And that's called CIS and is not allowed on the forum.

Originally posted by Digi No Mentioning Events of PIS
Plot Induced Stupidity, or PIS, is when characters don't use their abilities or skills to the fullest extent as shown before, even within their personality ranges, for the sake of the story plotline. It makes lesser powered characters an actual challenge against higher powered characters in the comics. Examples of PIS include Flash stories lasting longer than three panels, or Toy Man as a threat to Superman.

Character Induced Stupidity, or CIS, on the other hand, refers to any natural mental limitations that characters impose upon themselves and reduce their ability to use their own skills and powers effectively. Unlike PIS, CIS does not occur because the plot requires it, but because the character is genuinely that dumb. Examples of the CIS-afflicted include characters such as Rhino or Jar Jar Binks. Events of CIS are not exempt from debates.

Originally posted by SamZED
I dont get? More like you refuse to admit the fact because it ruins your theory. Again, if you HOLD BACK and AFFRAID to HURT your opponent it makes your attacks SLOWER and LESS EFFECTIVE no matter how much experience you have. Its a fact and a common knowledge not just for fighters but for anyone with common sense.

Actually it is a common knowledge for fighters who put a little bit of training into it, that pulling punches is easy and does not hinder your ability to move and land light punches as normal. I suggest you talk to someone who practices light contact sparring.

Tell it to Kingpin. Becuase what has has happened on pannel was a proof that superpowers > ma training unless there are reasons for a character with super powers to not fight at his fullest potential. And that's called CIS and is not allowed on the forum.

Huh? Spidey has lost to Kingpin because Fisk knows how to fight.

In other words you dont have any proofs. I proved Spider-man >>> Cap and supported it with scans. All you did was repeat the same thing about a CIS fight that happened in comics over and over for three pages and didn't even bother to give proofs that Cap stands a chance against Parker if no CIS is allowed. Im not even talking about your claim that Parker wont be able to hit him ONCE.

Superpowered people gets taken down by skilled non-powered ones all the time. Peter is not immune to this either, in fact quite the opposite. I can post a few scans of Cap dominating spidey and strength meaning nothing if it will make you feel better.

What's getting old is this^ All things concidered he can punch DD's head off but doesnt because he's holding back. If you dont like the fact its your problem.

Hey I like the fact that characters can be hurt, makes for an interesting story. Wolverine can cut Peter`s head off too you know.

Spider-man took down Hulk before, so what? Did you even bother to read the forum rules when you joined? The fact that chatacter A beat character B in a book because of PIS or CIS even though the character B is a lot more powerful than character A doesnt prove anything on vs forum. Deathstroke held his own against Titans on few ocasions. But in a say DS vs Flash thread that's not what we would take into concideration. What we would have to concider is - Flash can land 50000 punches on DS before Slade can blink, so he wins. So dont even go there, talking about what Cap accomplished in comics is not important right now. And yes, Spider-man IS "clearly more powerful".

Says the guy that brought up Firelord....

The spider is stronger if that is what you mean by powerful. There are still many who can outfight him.

All you post is - "look that happened in a book so I dont need to support any of my claims and I dont wanna hear anything about PIS CIS forum rules etc" If Kraven the Hunter takes down the Hulk because Hulk for some reason refuses to fight by your logic that'd mean Kraven >>>> Hulk because "it happened in the comics". And you say my posts about stats and factors that affected the fight are bad..

Ive been reading comics for many years, including the ones about trained MA, and I dont need to see anything 'cause I know that in comicbooks training is great and all but its still not as efective as super powers unless ofcourse the one with superpowers is a complete idiot, and you're clearly overstimating the ma taining in comics. Because seriously, it feels like im debating about a guy who got a super soldier serum as well as the green lanterns ring instead of years of training.

Listen, Spidey is not that durable that he can`t be hurt by a punch by a human who really knows how to punch. For all his speed and spider sense he can still be hit by someone who got skills far surpassing Peter`s. He has trouble dealing with skilled fighters because he is not one himself. THAT is why he can be taken down by the "less powerful" as you call them.

Originally posted by Mshinu Again, Cap has in fact DONE what I say he can do. Spidey hits air and the shield.

Spidey is not "clearly more powerful" than Bats or Cap, they have both taken down better men than Peter Parker.

Originally posted by Tshern
You know who else has? Squirrel Girl.

Well she got squirrel like agility.. no defense against that

Originally posted by Mshinu
Well she got squirrel like agility.. no defense against that

Originally posted by Tshern
If there is, at least Thanos and Dr Doom didn't utilise it.

No way they could beat her anyway.. she is clearly too powerful

Originally posted by Bouboumaster
Are you implying that Wolverine = Batman?

Batman is a human, a tough s.o.b human, and a god of martial arts, but still, a human.

Wolverine have physical abilities that gives him the possibility to go against the Hulk. They're not in the same weight class at all.

I mean, no disrecptect for the Bat, a kick ass hero, btw. I gives him a win over DareDevil anyday of the week! But he can't compete with Wolverine.

And Wolverine beat Spidey! 😮‍💨 💃

As good as Wolverine in what? In a fight, he certainly is not.

Originally posted by Tshern
As good as Wolverine in what? In a fight, he certainly is not.

And Galactus has lost to Vindicator. What's your point?

Originally posted by Tshern
And Galactus has lost to Vindicator. What's your point?

Originally posted by thanos-prime
that i think daredevil would beat wolverine

DD could beat on Wolvie with his billyclub all day and Logan smoking a cheap cigar would barely notice.

Originally posted by Mshinu
DD could beat on Wolvie with his billyclub all day and Logan smoking a cheap cigar would barely notice.