It basically allows you to without beam ore anything to change the phyiscal structure in a target. Deathwing did it in DotD. I'm just curious if the repel Shield have ever repelled a spell (which I'm not even sure that it is) that doesn't need to hit Kain in order to function the fact that he is there is enough.
Originally posted by Q'AniliaSpoiler:
In Day of the Dragons, he did not win. Although he did not lose. He did attain some red dragon eggs and is scheming beneath Grim Batol.Indeed. It required a top-tier Azerothian magician to stop Endless Hunger. Supposedly, in order to beat Neltharion you need to be Medivh material or higher.
[B]
Spoiler:
He didn't get the eggs, not in the Book atleast he got the wagon but then Tyran followed him, and then after the battle the aspects arrived, they got there power back and well pwned him, he lost his position in the alliance, the eggs he claimed (in the book atleast) I would call it a Loss
The changed version of Endless Hunger that Deathwing used, even Medivh, without the counterspell that Krasus knew, would imo have died, but agreed you need Medivh ore above to take down Deathwing.
Originally posted by Utrigita
[B]Spoiler:
He didn't get the eggs, not in the Book atleast he got the wagon but then Tyran followed him, and then after the battle the aspects arrived, they got there power back and well pwned him, he lost his position in the alliance, the eggs he claimed (in the book atleast) I would call it a LossThe changed version of Endless Hunger that Deathwing used, even Medivh, without the counterspell that Krasus knew, would imo have died, but agreed you need Medivh ore above to take down Deathwing.
Spoiler:
I guess that could be true. My memory is a little vague revolving DotD. I just thought he succeeded in hiding the eggs just before the battle with the aspects. We do know, however, as of NotD that Deathwing is doing something beneath Grim Batol.
So I guess he was defeated, although Deathwing always lands on his feet.
That's true, I guess. Krasus with all his knowledge had only one single spell that could beat Endless Hunger (During it's early stage). I can't imagine anyone below Titan level can do anything about it if it reaches the level Krasus feared.
Originally posted by Utrigita
It basically allows you to without beam ore anything to change the phyiscal structure in a target. Deathwing did it in DotD. I'm just curious if the repel Shield have ever repelled a spell (which I'm not even sure that it is) that doesn't need to hit Kain in order to function the fact that he is there is enough.
I dont know, its just a shield that reflects spells. Technically/logically I cant see how the spell hitting Kain (I assume you mean a physical object, fireball, blast etc) is relevent simply because no spell actually hits Kain with the shield active, it just reflects.
In the case of the repel shield not working for some reason, e.g. a curse:
Has deathwing cast this without hitting the being, what are its specifics? cast time, did he stay still while casting it, what did it actually do when used, who was it used against etc.
Unless it is indeed without projectile, casts and hits instantly etc and unless ofc Deathwing has a bit of luck hes not going to likely hit Kain with it quick enough considering Kain will be teleporting atop him and jabbing the reaver into his eyes. And thats if Artifical glory is correct that Death Wing or the demon soul does indeed passively shield him from spells all over his body without his whim.
Originally posted by Q'Anilia
That's true, I guess. Krasus with all his knowledge had only one single spell that could beat Endless Hunger (During it's early stage). I can't imagine anyone below Titan level can do anything about it if it reaches the level Krasus feared. [/B]
From the quote I remember he did not actually say there was only a single counter, simply that the spell he thought up was the only spell he could have done at the time.
Originally posted by Burning thought
I dont know, its just a shield that reflects spells. Technically/logically I cant see how the spell hitting Kain (I assume you mean a physical object, fireball, blast etc) is relevent simply because no spell actually hits Kain with the shield active, it just reflects.In the case of the repel shield not working for some reason, e.g. a curse:
Has deathwing cast this without hitting the being, what are its specifics? cast time, did he stay still while casting it, what did it actually do when used, who was it used against etc.
Unless it is indeed without projectile, casts and hits instantly etc and unless ofc Deathwing has a bit of luck hes not going to likely hit Kain with it quick enough considering Kain will be teleporting atop him and jabbing the reaver into his eyes. And thats if Artifical glory is correct that Death Wing or the demon soul does indeed passively shield him from spells all over his body without his whim.
It doesn't move like a physical object, it just affects the target, no projectile ore visible form, not even a hint that it have been casted ore it's being used.
He was alone with Rhonin and melted a rock the size of Rhonin before Rhonin's eyes and then had the Lava vanish on the ground without lifting a finger. There was no cast time. Merely stating to Rhonin that if he wanted he could do the same to him.
No projectile and no Cast time from the looks of it. I highly doubt that the Soul Reaver will be enough to kill Deathwing, first you are going through the Adamantium Plating and you need the force of Alexstrasza at full power to strick them with enough force to actually injure Deathwing, on top of that he didn't have his shield active at the time because he didn't believe that Alexstrasza could injure him. AG is correct as mentioned in the DS is the power of Malygos, which apparently during the attack from the Demons, made it possible for Deathwing to without even being aware of it, was capable of throwing their spells right back at them.
Originally posted by Burning thought
From the quote I remember he did not actually say there was only a single counter, simply that the spell he thought up was the only spell he could have done at the time.
He tried a spell first that was supposed to counter it, that was the only counterspell against it that Krasus was sure would work and it would have hadn't Deathwing not altered the spell which made the counterspell useless, Krasus had another spell but he wasn't even sure that it could stop the endless hunger, and he was well aware that a single mistake was enough to kill him, and as you already know it was a spell that was old spoken in a nigh forgotten laungh and etc.
Originally posted by Utrigita
It doesn't move like a physical object, it just affects the target, no projectile ore visible form, not even a hint that it have been casted ore it's being used.He was alone with Rhonin and melted a rock the size of Rhonin before Rhonin's eyes and then had the Lava vanish on the ground without lifting a finger. There was no cast time. Merely stating to Rhonin that if he wanted he could do the same to him.
No projectile and no Cast time from the looks of it. I highly doubt that the Soul Reaver will be enough to kill Deathwing, first you are going through the Adamantium Plating and you need the force of Alexstrasza at full power to strick them with enough force to actually injure Deathwing, on top of that he didn't have his shield active at the time because he didn't believe that Alexstrasza could injure him. AG is correct as mentioned in the DS is the power of Malygos, which apparently during the attack from the Demons, made it possible for Deathwing to without even being aware of it, was capable of throwing their spells right back at them.
He tried a spell first that was supposed to counter it, that was the only counterspell against it that Krasus was sure would work and it would have hadn't Deathwing not altered the spell which made the counterspell useless, Krasus had another spell but he wasn't even sure that it could stop the endless hunger, and he was well aware that a single mistake was enough to kill him, and as you already know it was a spell that was old spoken in a nigh forgotten laungh and etc.
is this stated and implied or is it simply not stated? if this is a book the fact it does not have a statement of a cast time does not mean it does not have one, or an action.
Thats not necesserily transmutation, it could just be a targeted spell, this is one of those feats where I would need a quote. It may not actually work against living beings, Death wing could have been bluffing. If he could do such a thing he may have done it to a dragon or an aspect.
The SR is perfect to kill him, it attacks his soul and Kain could strike somewhere not touched by adamantium, theres always a crevice, there could be an opening, hell push it between plates, there has to be a hole because adamantium does not bend like flesh, if it comes down to it, Kain could go for the eyes.
Does it say he was not aware, is there a quote?
so...Krasus did indeed know several that "could" have possibly worked against it, which means its not necesserily beyond Kain to stop, all the unspoken spell was made up of was light and heat, Kain has both.
Originally posted by Burning thought
is this stated and implied or is it simply not stated? if this is a book the fact it does not have a statement of a cast time does not mean it does not have one, or an action.Thats not necesserily transmutation, it could just be a targeted spell, this is one of those feats where I would need a quote. It may not actually work against living beings, Death wing could have been bluffing. If he could do such a thing he may have done it to a dragon or an aspect.
The SR is perfect to kill him, it attacks his soul and Kain could strike somewhere not touched by adamantium, theres always a crevice, there could be an opening, hell push it between plates, there has to be a hole because adamantium does not bend like flesh, if it comes down to it, Kain could go for the eyes.
Does it say he was not aware, is there a quote?
so...Krasus did indeed know several that "could" have possibly worked against it, which means its not necesserily beyond Kain to stop, all the unspoken spell was made up of was light and heat, Kain has both.
Why would he do such a thing on a dragon or an aspect? He kicked their asses without such spells. Twice. Two out of three times. Also in case you have not noticed, Azerothians are very tender in battle. You next to never see anyone go all-out in battle. There are spells that can kill someone with a gesture, yet such spells are next to never used.
Yes, it states that he was aware of this. A single word, a single letter missed in the nigh-unspeakable language could kill him. I'm not going to get you a quote, and not sure Utrigita will either. In my opinion, you aren't really worth the trouble. If you are distrustful, that's your problem. Not mine. If you don't believe me/us, I'm not going to try convince you.
Krasus said that only one other spell could help him against Endless Hunger. It's ridiculous how you speak of it as if it's that simple. You are aware that Krasus has both light and heat spells as well, right? Just like any other mage in all of Azeroth. Fire and light are two of the most basic spells on the planet. The fact that Kain master both is not impressive at all. Azerothian children mages can as well. It will not help him.
If Korialstrasz himself has to go to such extent that he risk his own life to stop a spell, you can't be so daft as to think that it's so easily countered that all he has to do is burst some fire on it and light up the room. He's done both those in the past, and since he was the only one knowing that Deathwing was still alive (Except for Nozdormu), he would be an idiot to risk his life unless it was absolutely necessary. He said himself that if he did not stop the spell there and then, it would be too late to do anything about it.
Krasus is no idiot.
And Kain is a magical weakling in comparison to Warcraft magicians. He won't stand a chance at stopping the Endless Hunger.
First off ^agreed Q.
Originally posted by Burning thought
is this stated and implied or is it simply not stated? if this is a book the fact it does not have a statement of a cast time does not mean it does not have one, or an action.Thats not necesserily transmutation, it could just be a targeted spell, this is one of those feats where I would need a quote. It may not actually work against living beings, Death wing could have been bluffing. If he could do such a thing he may have done it to a dragon or an aspect.
The SR is perfect to kill him, it attacks his soul and Kain could strike somewhere not touched by adamantium, theres always a crevice, there could be an opening, hell push it between plates, there has to be a hole because adamantium does not bend like flesh, if it comes down to it, Kain could go for the eyes.
Does it say he was not aware, is there a quote?
so...Krasus did indeed know several that "could" have possibly worked against it, which means its not necesserily beyond Kain to stop, all the unspoken spell was made up of was light and heat, Kain has both.
It is shown to be the case (as much as it can be shown in a book), Ehmm when a guy basically without lifting a finger ore doing anything else for that matter, I see no reason to assume that it requires cast time ore a action, to think that is does when shown that it doesn't is in logical imo.
Sure I will translate it to the best of my abilities
Around Deathwing multiply golden rings appeared and the shadow looking being walked straight through them "was that required" Deathwing shifted his eyes to a boulder next to Rhonin that melted before his eye, the melten rock ran into the ground and vanished all in a matter of seconds
I take the liberty of pointing out that from English to my language and back to English again the context can easily have changed, I have noticed that before, so if the English version (which is ultimate canon) has another description of the encounter it's imo the correct one. Deathwing doesn't bluff, he cheats and so on but he doesn't bluff, he shows that feat to Rhonin to assure Rhonin that right now he is living only because he is of use to Deathwing. Rhonin was well aware of that fact. Which would have been as Q mentioned extremely boring, Deathwing can raise a freaking volcano if he wants why doesn't he in DotD do that? because it would blow the plot to bits.
Has the Soul Reaver ever stolen a Soul from a Aspect of the earth ore to refrain have it ever stolen the Soul from a living being of tremendous power? Yeah straight after the eyes of Deathwing great idea, because then Deathwing most certainly doesn't see him, do you think that because Deathwing is large he isn't agile?
He spoke every word very carefully knowing that the slighest mistake would be the end of him
He knew two, the one he tried first and the second he tried afterwards. If I didn't formulate that clearly enough I apologise. If the spell was as simple as you wishes it to be, it couldn't instantly have killed Krasus if he had spoken out a wrong word neither would it have made a amount of heat so high that a Dragon thinks it would burn it too death.
page 131, I mention it because I recall numerous incidents in Harry Potter and other translated books where the things I read was slightly altered from the ones in the english version, I especially recall a Star Wars where in the english version the force user pushed his hand forward while in the translated version if I translated back it would be something like a hand gesture. So it's cool to have you check Q 🙂
Originally posted by Q'Anilia
Why would he do such a thing on a dragon or an aspect? He kicked their asses without such spells. Twice. Two out of three times. Also in case you have not noticed, Azerothians are very tender in battle. You next to never see anyone go all-out in battle. There are spells that can kill someone with a gesture, yet such spells are next to never used.Yes, it states that he was aware of this. A single word, a single letter missed in the nigh-unspeakable language could kill him. I'm not going to get you a quote, and not sure Utrigita will either. In my opinion, you aren't really worth the trouble. If you are distrustful, that's your problem. Not mine. If you don't believe me/us, I'm not going to try convince you.
Krasus said that only one other spell could help him against Endless Hunger. It's ridiculous how you speak of it as if it's that simple. You are aware that Krasus has both light and heat spells as well, right? Just like any other mage in all of Azeroth. Fire and light are two of the most basic spells on the planet. The fact that Kain master both is not impressive at all. Azerothian children mages can as well. It will not help him.
If Korialstrasz himself has to go to such extent that he risk his own life to stop a spell, you can't be so daft as to think that it's so easily countered that all he has to do is burst some fire on it and light up the room. He's done both those in the past, and since he was the only one knowing that Deathwing was still alive (Except for Nozdormu), he would be an idiot to risk his life unless it was absolutely necessary. He said himself that if he did not stop the spell there and then, it would be too late to do anything about it.
Krasus is no idiot.
And Kain is a magical weakling in comparison to Warcraft magicians. He won't stand a chance at stopping the Endless Hunger.
"shrug" but still its still not implication that it may work on living beings, I mean if hes only used it on a rock. Hard case to make especially since its quite vague.
Quotes are very important in debates, for example in the other thread it turned the pigs time spell from an instant win for him to a pointless waste. utrigita is usually good at providing evidence.
So he has two spells that could help him? your overhyping the spell too much, the sitation could also factor largely into it, perhaps what with Deathwing also there he could not risk another spell that could take longer, time Kain has that Krasus does not. Well thats all its stated the spell had, maybe he has not the power of both or your giving him too much credit or something.
Well I dont know the situation, what I do know from the quote you provided before is that it was brighter than the sun or something and had incredible heat, its all fairly vague and as it seems now he had other spells that may have worked, there may be other factors instead of just raw spell talent for why he could not get rid of it more easily.
"shrug" not in canon, and in this thread Kain has a vast amount of magic powers so stating him as a magical weakling is redundant when he could likely destroy/defeat these "warcraft magicians".
Originally posted by Utrigita
First off ^agreed Q.It is shown to be the case (as much as it can be shown in a book), Ehmm when a guy basically without lifting a finger ore doing anything else for that matter, I see no reason to assume that it requires cast time ore a action, to think that is does when shown that it doesn't is in logical imo.
Sure I will translate it to the best of my abilities
I take the liberty of pointing out that from English to my language and back to English again the context can easily have changed, I have noticed that before, so if the English version (which is ultimate canon) has another description of the encounter it's imo the correct one. Deathwing doesn't bluff, he cheats and so on but he doesn't bluff, he shows that feat to Rhonin to assure Rhonin that right now he is living only because he is of use to Deathwing. Rhonin was well aware of that fact. Which would have been as Q mentioned extremely boring, Deathwing can raise a freaking volcano if he wants why doesn't he in DotD do that? because it would blow the plot to bits.
Has the Soul Reaver ever stolen a Soul from a Aspect of the earth ore to refrain have it ever stolen the Soul from a living being of tremendous power? Yeah straight after the eyes of Deathwing great idea, because then Deathwing most certainly doesn't see him, do you think that because Deathwing is large he isn't agile?
He knew two, the one he tried first and the second he tried afterwards. If I didn't formulate that clearly enough I apologise. If the spell was as simple as you wishes it to be, it couldn't instantly have killed Krasus if he had spoken out a wrong word neither would it have made a amount of heat so high that a Dragon thinks it would burn it too death.
fairly vague quote,and these golden rings Deathwing summoned may be significant as well, range is also important, by the sounds of it it was merely a room, he may also need to have his opponent nearby. Also was this human form or dragon form? this may also be relevent.
Ime curious, ive heard this but has he actually raised a volcano?
define tremendous power and explain its relevent to stealing the soul which is typically a fairly defenceless immaterial part of a being that that being cannot usually sense itself or protect. Soul attacks are one of the nastiest, Deathwing being tremendously powerful is an opinion, more unusual is the paradox of stating something as able to resist something simply based on tremendous power yet if it is drained of its soul, then it is bested.
But I am correct, it was heat and light that did it, does this heat have other external feats? I mean Kains light fills a room and blinds enemies, his fire incinterates them and his pyrokenisis immolate has albiet in anothers usage shattered rock through heat.
All kain has to do is teleport away from endless hunger, hell even atop Deathwing, Deathwings own spell could, forgive the wording be the "death" of him if Kain moves around and on top of Deathwing, the hunger may devour its caster.
"shrug" but still its still not implication that it may work on living beings, I mean if hes only used it on a rock. Hard case to make especially since its quite vague.I'd like to highlight a flaw in this logic. Kain's not a living being.
also, in another thread you argued that his body is an inanimate husk that shouldn't work [heart torn out, blah blah blah].
Originally posted by Burning thought
Quotes are very important in debates, for example in the other thread it turned the pigs time spell from an instant win for him to a pointless waste. utrigita is usually good at providing evidence.
No, they really aren't. Often helpful to determine a feat, but only vital if you are so obsessed with being right that you don't trust a fellow member. If you don't believe the others, you aren't obliged to debate that point. If you do from that point forth is your choice. Quotes from books, movies or games should NEVER be an expectation, but rather an appreciation for being privileged the time and effort of a fellow member.
Quotes are appreciated. Useful. Effective. Not important.
I've seen you time and time again get a quote that everyone except for you have ended up agreeing with. Giving you quotes is in my opinion a waste of time. You abuse the width of the English language and use your own bias to decree yourself correct.
I'll answer the rest tomorrow.
Originally posted by Burning thought
fairly vague quote,and these golden rings Deathwing summoned may be significant as well, range is also important, by the sounds of it it was merely a room, he may also need to have his opponent nearby. Also was this human form or dragon form? this may also be relevent.Ime curious, ive heard this but has he actually raised a volcano?
define tremendous power and explain its relevent to stealing the soul which is typically a fairly defenceless immaterial part of a being that that being cannot usually sense itself or protect. Soul attacks are one of the nastiest, Deathwing being tremendously powerful is an opinion, more unusual is the paradox of stating something as able to resist something simply based on tremendous power yet if it is drained of its soul, then it is bested.
But I am correct, it was heat and light that did it, does this heat have other external feats? I mean Kains light fills a room and blinds enemies, his fire incinterates them and his pyrokenisis immolate has albiet in anothers usage shattered rock through heat.
All kain has to do is teleport away from endless hunger, hell even atop Deathwing, Deathwings own spell could, forgive the wording be the "death" of him if Kain moves around and on top of Deathwing, the hunger may devour its caster.
It's vague because there isn't anything more to work on, the rings was one of Rhonins strongest spell, I just added the context to why Deathwing choosed to show to Rhonin what he could do to him. They was out in the open and given the context I would say there is some distance between Rhonin and Deathwing. Whether ore not Deathwing was in his dragon form ore not is of no concern his power's doesn't change.
Not in the Books, but as mentioned if Deathwing did that in the center of the Alliance Castle for instance he would rip the plot to shreds.
Deathwing has power imo beyond anyone in LoK, I'm interested in knowing against whom Kain has with the Soul Reaver claimed a soul that makes you think it would work on Deathwing, please don't say that because it works on humans it auto works on Deathwing. Perhaps in LoK, that is not the case in Warcraft.
You are correct in some sense, that light and fire was present but it is imo beyond anything Kain can has shown capable of conjuring, if all it toke was a fireball and a lightflare Krasus wouldn't have been scared by the Endless Hunger, that much is certain.
Teleport away from a Hunger that will basically hunt him forever? I wish him Good Luck, as for Deathwing being killed by his own randomized Spell... I find that extremely unlikely.