Deathwing vs Kain

Originally posted by Q'Anilia
No, they really aren't. Often helpful to determine a feat, but only vital if you are so obsessed with being right that you don't trust a fellow member. If you don't believe the others, you aren't obliged to debate that point. If you do from that point forth is your choice. Quotes from books, movies or games should NEVER be an expectation, but rather an appreciation for being privileged the time and effort of a fellow member.

Quotes are appreciated. Useful. Effective. Not important.
I've seen you time and time again get a quote that everyone except for you have ended up agreeing with. Giving you quotes is in my opinion a waste of time. You abuse the width of the English language and use your own bias to decree yourself correct.

I'll answer the rest tomorrow.

Thats what a lazy person who does not or cannot provide feats would say, just trusting someone is pointless, ive given you an example where that does not work and if I had an infnite memory and patience, could find many more, especially warcraft quotes. Although this is your statement against mine with evidence, so mine is stronger.

But then thats your opinion, just like its their opinion on the quote, its unimportant if they agree, especially if their on your side to begin with, its me you need to change the decision of, which is the main goal of debating. And through real evidence you need to use it. Also remember what I said about evidence, none of the statements in this thread hold it which outlines the importance of evidence, imagine if I just told you Kain could use regulation powers to infnitly control magic? yet you now youve seen my evidence disagree with that.....thats a piece of evidence from my side AND yours that outlines the truth that evidence is extremely important.

The fact you are either too lazy to provide evidence or dont want me pulling your quotes apart to make your characters feats seem less powerful is neither here nor there or a baring on their importance.

Originally posted by Utrigita
It's vague because there isn't anything more to work on, the rings was one of Rhonins strongest spell, I just added the context to why Deathwing choosed to show to Rhonin what he could do to him. They was out in the open and given the context I would say there is some distance between Rhonin and Deathwing. Whether ore not Deathwing was in his dragon form ore not is of no concern his power's doesn't change.

Not in the Books, but as mentioned if Deathwing did that in the center of the Alliance Castle for instance he would rip the plot to shreds.

Deathwing has power imo beyond anyone in LoK, I'm interested in knowing against whom Kain has with the Soul Reaver claimed a soul that makes you think it would work on Deathwing, please don't say that because it works on humans it auto works on Deathwing. Perhaps in LoK, that is not the case in Warcraft.

You are correct in some sense, that light and fire was present but it is imo beyond anything Kain can has shown capable of conjuring, if all it toke was a fireball and a lightflare Krasus wouldn't have been scared by the Endless Hunger, that much is certain.

Teleport away from a Hunger that will basically hunt him forever? I wish him Good Luck, as for Deathwing being killed by his own randomized Spell... I find that extremely unlikely.

oh but what spells he can perform may, if we take a simple spell that may need a gesture to perform, a dragon making a gesture is arguably slower/quicker or more obvious than a human. Its small diffrence but it can be important. By the looks of it, Deathwing has to not only see what he is melting but also an effort of will.

Anyone? the Elder God could prob defeat most of warcraft or at least those on the planet. And your not making any logical sense, your argument seems to be "I think DW is more powerful so he atuomatically resists/defeats an ability because Kain is not as impressive!" thats a lot of illogical bs tbh and its not backed by anything. no the sword has not taken the soul of anyone other than humanoids although its the only weapon that can harm the Elder God who is a continental sized being, perhaps best described in the Warcraft unvierse as the "mother of all old gods". The power of a weapon does not change depending on the target, never has at least in the Soul reavers case, its a soul devouring weapon, simple....Kain strikes Deathwing who apprently so far seems to have no soul resistances and he drops dead or so weak Kain has more or less won.

Not certain, perhaps its just because he did not think of them at the time or he judged such as spells as weak despite the hunger not showing any feats to show its strong against them, either way the spell itself was of light and heat, thats it.....

You find it unlikely do you? unlikely when kain could easily be sitting atop him? on him? sitting on one of his Adamantium plates while invisible or made out of mist and DW is thinking how foolish he was for conjuring something that is about to devour him in its path towards Kain. Kain has powers that make this hunger fairly useless, as useless as Kains time freezing bolt chasing the "Flash".

Originally posted by Utrigita
It's directly after in my version at least, Krasus entire talk with Malygos.

Found it. So here's how it is, comparing and elaborating your quote first:

Around Deathwing multiply golden rings appeared and the shadow looking being walked straight through them "was that required" Deathwing shifted his eyes to a boulder next to Rhonin that melted before his eye, the melten rock ran into the ground and vanished all in a matter of seconds

The golden rings is in fact Rhonin's spell and not Deathwing's. Therefore irrelevant to actual feat preformed by our Neltharion. Rhonin narrated that it was a spell particularly good at binding ancient entities and dragons foremost. Deathwing proves that his level of power is beyond mere binding magic.
Deathwing in this state was in his human form, for what it's worth.

Rings of gold formed around deathwing-
--and the shadowy figure walked right through them "Now, was that really necessary?" An arm emerged from the cloak. Deathwing pointed.
A rock next to where Rhonin lay sizzled madly . . . then melted before his very eyes. The molten stone dribbled into the ground, seeped into every crack, disappearing without a trace as rapidly as it had melted in the first place. All in only scand seconds

Continuation for verification that it in fact works on living:

"This is what I could have done to you, wizard, if such had been my choice. Twice now your life is owed to me; must I make it a third and final time?"
Rhonin wisely shook his head.

Well thats not a fact that it works on living ,a threat is not a fact, but still, evidence is better than statement. I answered utrigitos above on the matter however.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Well thats not a fact that it works on living ,a threat is not a fact, but still, evidence is better than statement. I answered utrigitos above on the matter however.

He melted a rock. How is that not dangerous for a living, if directed at them? I'll just go ahead and have you meet Tyrygosa.

These two pictures show how Tyrygosa is melting people in very little time. In the first picture, Tyrygosa is even extremely weak, barely able to stand, let alone cast a spell. She is snared by the skeleton Ichor (The talker) in the next panel because she was too weak to fight back.

In the second, she has gathered new strength and had a chance to rest. It's taking place roughly a day later, when they were ambushed by minions of Dar'Khan.

Now to my point with showing you Tyrygosa doing this. Neltharion is more than a thousand times more powerful (Than Korialstrasz), not to mention a dragon Aspect and an insane amount of years older as well as more cunning in the magical arts.

Now imagine him, not only a thousand times more powerful, but almost quadruple his own strength because he is carrying the Demon Soul.

If you don't think he can melt Rhonin, we're done here 😐

Those scans make it look like an expelling of magical energy, not simply a stare, looks like a diffrent type of spell to me, its obvious he could melt Rhonin, not that I know who Rhonin is but since you talk of him as if hes nothing in comparison to DW ill take that on base value.

If Deathwings spell is to do with a blast of magic like that then it may have disadvantages.

But its irrelvent, DW in the quote looks at the stone and it goes molten, considering Kain will be teleporting constantly if he knows whats best with (kain is no fool and may be older and wiser than DW himself), especially if the Dragon is using the highly destructive demon soul then its not going to be as simple as melting that stone. not to mention, whats the likeliness hes going to use this tactic which he used to simply scare Rhonin on Kain when hes holding far more powerful weapons and is I assume, going all out in this battle.

Considering that melting someone isn't a particularly impressive feat, I can see no reason why Deathwing, let alone with the Demon Soul in his possession, wouldn't be able to cast it on a living being.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Considering that melting someone isn't a particularly impressive feat, I can see no reason why Deathwing, let alone with the Demon Soul in his possession, wouldn't be able to cast it on a living being.

Medivh melted someone by thinking it, or "At will" as the RPG book would explain it.

Originally posted by Burning thought
oh but what spells he can perform may, if we take a simple spell that may need a gesture to perform, a dragon making a gesture is arguably slower/quicker or more obvious than a human. Its small diffrence but it can be important. By the looks of it, Deathwing has to not only see what he is melting but also an effort of will.

Anyone? the Elder God could prob defeat most of warcraft or at least those on the planet. And your not making any logical sense, your argument seems to be "I think DW is more powerful so he atuomatically resists/defeats an ability because Kain is not as impressive!" thats a lot of illogical bs tbh and its not backed by anything. no the sword has not taken the soul of anyone other than humanoids although its the only weapon that can harm the Elder God who is a continental sized being, perhaps best described in the Warcraft unvierse as the "mother of all old gods". The power of a weapon does not change depending on the target, never has at least in the Soul reavers case, its a soul devouring weapon, simple....Kain strikes Deathwing who apprently so far seems to have no soul resistances and he drops dead or so weak Kain has more or less won.

Not certain, perhaps its just because he did not think of them at the time or he judged such as spells as weak despite the hunger not showing any feats to show its strong against them, either way the spell itself was of light and heat, thats it.....

You find it unlikely do you? unlikely when kain could easily be sitting atop him? on him? sitting on one of his Adamantium plates while invisible or made out of mist and DW is thinking how foolish he was for conjuring something that is about to devour him in its path towards Kain. Kain has powers that make this hunger fairly useless, as useless as Kains time freezing bolt chasing the "Flash".

If we go by what the translated version said it would have no relevance the speed of Deathwing's eyefocus don't change drastically, however going by what the original text said Deathwing apparently has to move his finger to the target in the dragons case a claw, so Kain has to move instantly ore he will be melted. The spell pretty much happened instantly, the force of will required was at most minimal, If Malygos can choose to look whatever he likes (shapeshifting) in some dark hidden cornor of his mind, it shows just how much energy/will it requires for the dragons to use their magic.

Most of the mortal population, true but so could many other beings on Azeroth that doesn't make them above deathwing by default, neither do I see how the Elder God has any relevance since the Soul Reaver didn't steal the Elder God's Soul. No I just want like you did proof of what makes you think that Kain could draw out the Soul of Deathwing. The Dreadlords soul stealing beings couldn't do anything that could be related to soul magic against the ordinary dragons in war of the ancient, based on that I have no reason to believe that a Sword that has so far only has a instant effect on Humans (when they was weakened), and the Elder God was hardly continental size. Absolutely nonsense to be honest, the power of a Gun is greatly reduced when you are trying to use it to bring down a tank. Even a Nuke would based on the target have a different effect, the blast power might be the same but the armor of the given target, makes a difference. Even if we automatically assume that the Soul Reaver steal the targets soul (which it have failed to do on atleast two occasions, the Elder God and the Hylden Lord) it would still have to go through the adamantium plating on Deathwing and his magical shield.

Sorry but that is just plain ignorancy, if a Fireball spell and a flare spell would have been sufficiant, first off Krasus wouldn't almost have been paralyzed with fear, secondly he would have used a fireball and light, seen as how he immidiately after creates light and seen as how his first spell used in War of the Ancient was a immolation spell, he didn't he used a spell he had never spoken only read about and that Spell (the counterspell) was devoured by the Endless hunger, it also pretty much highlightens what would happen with a fireball ore a light flare, so your saying that Heat and light is enough is from my point of view a complete lack of misunderstanding concerning the Character that was in the situation.

I find it unlikely that Deathwing would place something in his home what could potentially kill him. You don't think that Deathwing can teleport? I'm sure Kain would be fine sitting on adamantium plates that is being heated by the fires that flow around in Deathwing's veins which is around the heat of molten lava in the mist form (I personally have my doubt that he can even get anywhere close to DW when DW holds the Demon Soul because Malygos tried that and as you know got blown across the planet)... While it might be a option for Kain to use his timeslow it would mean that he has to leave his mist form, and well melting is next.

Originally posted by Utrigita
If we go by what the translated version said it would have no relevance the speed of Deathwing's eyefocus don't change drastically, however going by what the original text said Deathwing apparently has to move his finger to the target in the dragons case a claw, so Kain has to move instantly ore he will be melted. The spell pretty much happened instantly, the force of will required was at most minimal, If Malygos can choose to look whatever he likes (shapeshifting) in some dark hidden cornor of his mind, it shows just how much energy/will it requires for the dragons to use their magic.

Most of the mortal population, true but so could many other beings on Azeroth that doesn't make them above deathwing by default, neither do I see how the Elder God has any relevance since the Soul Reaver didn't steal the Elder God's Soul. No I just want like you did proof of what makes you think that Kain could draw out the Soul of Deathwing. The Dreadlords soul stealing beings couldn't do anything that could be related to soul magic against the ordinary dragons in war of the ancient, based on that I have no reason to believe that a Sword that has so far only has a instant effect on Humans (when they was weakened), and the Elder God was hardly continental size. Absolutely nonsense to be honest, the power of a Gun is greatly reduced when you are trying to use it to bring down a tank. Even a Nuke would based on the target have a different effect, the blast power might be the same but the armor of the given target, makes a difference. Even if we automatically assume that the Soul Reaver steal the targets soul (which it have failed to do on atleast two occasions, the Elder God and the Hylden Lord) it would still have to go through the adamantium plating on Deathwing and his magical shield.

Sorry but that is just plain ignorancy, if a Fireball spell and a flare spell would have been sufficiant, first off Krasus wouldn't almost have been paralyzed with fear, secondly he would have used a fireball and light, seen as how he immidiately after creates light and seen as how his first spell used in War of the Ancient was a immolation spell, he didn't he used a spell he had never spoken only read about and that Spell (the counterspell) was devoured by the Endless hunger, it also pretty much highlightens what would happen with a fireball ore a light flare, so your saying that Heat and light is enough is from my point of view a complete lack of misunderstanding concerning the Character that was in the situation.

I find it unlikely that Deathwing would place something in his home what could potentially kill him. You don't think that Deathwing can teleport? I'm sure Kain would be fine sitting on adamantium plates that is being heated by the fires that flow around in Deathwing's veins which is around the heat of molten lava in the mist form (I personally have my doubt that he can even get anywhere close to DW when DW holds the Demon Soul because Malygos tried that and as you know got blown across the planet)... While it might be a option for Kain to use his timeslow it would mean that he has to leave his mist form, and well melting is next.

As I said above, Kain could be teleporting constantly which he would be doing considering the DS power and Kain is no fool, and if he is melted he would prob reform as mist, hell the mist form is an instant transformation of his body so he could resist this melting from that by turning himself even less viscous, gas>liquid. I doubt DW will use this power anyway, hes got the choice of all this power from the DS or his melting trick, I doubt hes going to choose melting.

Its relevent because the EG was massively wounded by it, it was the only weapon capable, I was outlining out stating it to be just a soul stealing weapon is folly when it has other unususal properties, including hitting a being that both spectral and material beings cant seem to strike. because thats what the sword is made to do and DW so far has no resistance shown. When did a dreadlord attempt to steal the soul of a dragon? or DW? was the dragon shielded or defenceless? and no, the only time the Soul reaver has an instant effect in gameplay is in BO1, where its a one hit kill which obliterates the beings body as well. Hardly continental? Nosgoth is either a continent or a planet, either way the EG is enormous (and can make itself far larger on a whim) and far larger than things in Warcraft, it would probably smother even a titan with its size.

wrong, the power of the gun is exactley the same when fired at a tank, the only problem is the resistance of the tank is massively higher than the guns power and it is "resisted". Only in this case, we have Kains power of his sword and seemingly zero resistance from DW. Furthermore the only reason the Hylden Lords soul is not taken is because of the Nexus stone which protects him from the reavers power, Kain uses it agains him to regain the sword in the end of BO2. The EG is an unkown being, it may not even have a soul, we know it absorbs them, eats them and then puts them into the wheel to recreate them as life but thats it. We know it slices through his tentacles like butter.

As I said, timing could also be important, perhaps the light he creates is no more than an Luminous from harry potter or w/e its called and not enough, perhaps his fireball takes too long to cast or he was not certain it would have been useful so he used this dangerous spell which he thought was the strongest he could have performed in the time period he had. Either way this hunger is featless and due to the fact it would devour DW and kain cna escape it with ease its irrelvent, a useless spell in comparison to DS and this melting.

I dont know, can he teleport? if so has he done it in Dragon form? Do we know the plates heat up like this to burn Kain? and as I said, Kain could stand on Deathwing, theres no evidence to suggest a plate covers ever piece of skin DW has, its illogical, there would have to be slits between plates so DW can move, especially on his arms, tail, neck etc. Malygos is a huge dragon, he would be an easy target to strike with the soul, Kain being small has an advantage over Malygos.

Kain puts up his repel shield early on to repel magic back at DW, then he continues on to teleport to escape this melting fate or blasts from the DS and DW physical attacks. He teleports atop DW and fires an incapacitation bolt into DW head, freezing him in time who drops like a rock into the ground below. kain finishes his opponent with one of his soul devouring powers, unless he can claim the DS for himself and use it to blast DW into piecies.

Originally posted by Utrigita
While it might be a option for Kain to use his timeslow it would mean that he has to leave his mist form, and well melting is next.

Remember that Neltharion neglected time magic even without the Demon Soul.

How? when? and in what form?

Originally posted by Burning thought
How? when? and in what form?

It's War of the Ancients, Day of the Dragon or Beyond the Dark Portal. At least as far as I know, he has only made an appearance in those three. Nozdormu participated in Day of the Dragon, so that might be it.

Of course, Soridormi participated in War of the Ancients.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Kain puts up his repel shield early on to repel magic back at DW, then he continues on to teleport to escape this melting fate or blasts from the DS and DW physical attacks. He teleports atop DW and fires an incapacitation bolt into DW head, freezing him in time who drops like a rock into the ground below. kain finishes his opponent with one of his soul devouring powers, unless he can claim the DS for himself and use it to blast DW into piecies.

If he teleported atop DW he would most likely get blown away, if not, his incapacitation bolt would be reflected back on him. Not like it really matters, because DW has been shown to shrug of incapacitation and using time powers against him with the Demon Soul would be pretty much moot.

Kain's best chance is to try to quickly teleport in and snatch the DS.

Snatch the DS is beyond unlikely. Deathwing's physical strength dwarf that of Kain by far.

Originally posted by Phantom Miria
[b]Snatch the DS is beyond unlikely. Deathwing's physical strength dwarf that of Kain by far. [/B]

Snatch not necessarily with physical strength.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Snatch not necessarily with physical strength.

Then what? Kain's meek telekinesis is out of the question as well.

Originally posted by Phantom Miria
[b]Then what? Kain's meek telekinesis is out of the question as well. [/B]

Like teleporting away with it? Or maybe striking it with Soul Reaver? Persons that didn't participate in the creation of the Demon Soul are apparently able to at least damage it.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Like teleporting away with it? Or maybe striking it with Soul Reaver? Persons that didn't participate in the creation of the Demon Soul are apparently able to at least damage it.

Kain lack the capability to damage the Demon Soul. Teleporting away with it is also unlikely, since Deathwing will have a grip on it, very possibly tight within his palm. Kain can't fly anyway, so gravity would work in his disadvantage.

If anything, Kain is toast if he teleport in front of Deathwing. He might as well grip him as he did Rhonin, only tight.

Originally posted by Phantom Miria
[b]Kain lack the capability to damage the Demon Soul. Teleporting away with it is also unlikely, since Deathwing will have a grip on it, very possibly tight within his palm. Kain can't fly anyway, so gravity would work in his disadvantage.

If anything, Kain is toast if he teleport in front of Deathwing. He might as well grip him as he did Rhonin, only tight. [/B]

If he has it gripped tightly in him palm, then yeah, Kain wouldn't be able to get it.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
If he has it gripped tightly in him palm, then yeah, Kain wouldn't be able to get it.

If I remember it properly, Deathwing's physical force was adequate to break through a magical barrier and tear DS loose with pure strength. This during the end of War of the Ancients.