Originally posted by Nephthys
The level of Mace wankery (and PT wankery) in this thread makes me ill. Trying to use a statement about an entire group to prove an individual is above another is laughable.
Your condescension is on the rise, I see. Apparently arguing with DS brings the worst out in people; I'll have to speak to him about his possible contagion.
And explain to me how the recitation of fact constitutes wankery.
Bane most probably wins.
Prove it.
Originally posted by Slash_KMCShow me where anything says that Mace's Shatterpoint can break organic material, or Vapaad is his only choice. And that alone wouldnt work to well.
If you're trying to impersonate Neb, you should be more like 'Bane would wtflolomglmaomoreinternetslangPWNZORRSS Mace.'But no, Mace wins.
by Incanus
Show me where anything says that Mace's Shatterpoint can break organic material, or Vapaad is his only choice. And that alone wouldnt work to well.
You just don't understand shatterpoint it's not like organic organisms have one spot that if you touch it we just fall apart. It would allow mace to see how the orbalisks WEAKEN bane believe it or not they do have weakness's.
also shatterpoints change and mace would be constantly aware of where bane is weakest ast and exploit that weakness to his advantage giving him a win but it would be an amazing fight to see. can you just drop this now please? everyone on here besides you already KNOWS mace would beat bane let's put this to rest now.
Your condescension is on the rise, I see. Apparently arguing with DS brings the worst out in people; I'll have to speak to him about his possible contagion.And explain to me how the recitation of fact constitutes wankery.
Very well, on second thought I was probably a little hasty in my evaluation. As I recall, I got a little angry when I saw the argument that since the PT was the 'golden age', that meant that every individual of that age must surely be above every individual of every other. And that Shatterpoint will let Mace instant pwn Bane with all his weaknesses. Though yes, DS has rubbed my nerves raw these last few days.
Prove it.
Well, for starters there is of course the long tired factor of the Orbalisks, which should help counter the fact that Mace uses a foreign style, because Bane also uses a foreign style. There is also the point that Vaapad is a variant of Juyo, so it is likely the style won't be as earth-shattering to him as Jar'kai. Now the nature of Vaadad is that it takes the dark side energy from Bane and Mace and uses it against the Bane in a super-conductive loop, as well as boosting Mace. However, the orbalisks function in that they absorb darkside energy. It is probable that this would negate this effect, or at least significantly lessen the effects, though of course not the benefits Windu enjoys from it.
Now as to shatterpoint, it is a fallacy to say that it with allow Mace to see all of Banes weaknesses at once and capitalise instantly. Mace's own description of it reads as- 'I sometimes can see the weak places in an opponent—shatterpoints where the unbreakable can be broken. They can occur in individuals…and in events." Add to this that during his duel with Sidious in the novel it describes him as completely unable to find one, until Skywalker comes in, despite his obvious desperation for one proves that it is only randomly effective, not under the command of Windu. Furthermore, it is unlikely given the nature of shatterpoint that Windu would be able to use it to relieve Bane of the Orbalisks as given that quote someone posted about it earlier that -When applied to physical items, shatterpoints worked much in the same manner. An individual would view an item through the Force, noting where it came together and also noting weak points in its composition. By allowing the Force to surge through them into the weak point, individuals could effectively "shatter" the object, causing it to break into multiple fragments.- This would ultimately prove unsuccessful against Bane as POD specifies that Bane keeps a tight force barrier around himself at all times.
Taken this way, and I'm not trying to pass off my theories as fact hence why I only said 'probably' earlier, it seems that the two are matched in terms of the lightsaber, Banes orbalisks rectifying any diffence the two may have in pure blade-to blade skill with its defence. Thus I foresee the duel going into the realms of a stamina match, of which Bane would most probably win.
In terms of the Force, no matter how unpopular this subject may have been made by Nebaris, Bane edges it. He has displayed more devastating offence with his telekinesis, easily disintegrating entire beings with his power, probably utilizing Force Destruction, as well as using his lightning to turn beings into ash and to exceed a million volts.
In terms of Total combat between them, Bane most probably wins.
Only way to kill Bane when his orbalisks are on him are 2 ways that have been stated: Hit him with force lightning, and cut off his head. Mace would obviously see the weakness of orbalisks, but that is lightning. How would he produce it? Other than Bane using his, is Mace strong enough in the force to make it ALL go into his blade and be reflected, because if one hits him, he is dead, which means Mace would have to be about as strong as Bane is in the force. Wait, is he? I know Mace wins 7/10 times, yes. But I just want to know how Mace would exxploit the electricity flaw, and only m1 place can kill Bane without it. Not a very good argument, but it is one nonetheless......
Originally posted by Nephthys
Very well, on second thought I was probably a little hasty in my evaluation. As I recall, I got a little angry when I saw the argument that since the PT was the 'golden age', that meant that every individual of that age must surely be above every individual of every other. And that Shatterpoint will let Mace instant pwn Bane with all his weaknesses. Though yes, DS has rubbed my nerves raw these last few days.Well, for starters there is of course the long tired factor of the Orbalisks, which should help counter the fact that Mace uses a foreign style, because Bane also uses a foreign style. There is also the point that Vaapad is a variant of Juyo, so it is likely the style won't be as earth-shattering to him as Jar'kai. Now the nature of Vaadad is that it takes the dark side energy from Bane and Mace and uses it against the Bane in a super-conductive loop, as well as boosting Mace. However, the orbalisks function in that they absorb darkside energy. It is probable that this would negate this effect, or at least significantly lessen the effects, though of course not the benefits Windu enjoys from it.
Now as to shatterpoint, it is a fallacy to say that it with allow Mace to see all of Banes weaknesses at once and capitalise instantly. Mace's own description of it reads as- 'I [b]sometimes
can see the weak places in an opponent—shatterpoints where the unbreakable can be broken. They can occur in individuals…and in events." Add to this that during his duel with Sidious in the novel it describes him as completely unable to find one, until Skywalker comes in, despite his obvious desperation for one proves that it is only randomly effective, not under the command of Windu. Furthermore, it is unlikely given the nature of shatterpoint that Windu would be able to use it to relieve Bane of the Orbalisks as given that quote someone posted about it earlier that -When applied to physical items, shatterpoints worked much in the same manner. An individual would view an item through the Force, noting where it came together and also noting weak points in its composition. By allowing the Force to surge through them into the weak point, individuals could effectively "shatter" the object, causing it to break into multiple fragments.- This would ultimately prove unsuccessful against Bane as POD specifies that Bane keeps a tight force barrier around himself at all times.Taken this way, and I'm not trying to pass off my theories as fact hence why I only said 'probably' earlier, it seems that the two are matched in terms of the lightsaber, Banes orbalisks rectifying any diffence the two may have in pure blade-to blade skill with its defence. Thus I foresee the duel going into the realms of a stamina match, of which Bane would most probably win.
In terms of the Force, no matter how unpopular this subject may have been made by Nebaris, Bane edges it. He has displayed more devastating offence with his telekinesis, easily disintegrating entire beings with his power, probably utilizing Force Destruction, as well as using his lightning to turn beings into ash and to exceed a million volts.
In terms of Total combat between them, Bane most probably wins. [/B]
1. The orbalisks wouldn't feed off the dark side energy being directed AT bane they ONLY feed off the darkside energy IN banes BODY. To think that Caedous's lightning would just be negated because the Orbalisks just absorb the darkside energy is just Stupid.
2. Mace's Shatterpoint Would still be effective against bane.
Originally posted by Incanus
Only way to kill Bane when his orbalisks are on him are 2 ways that have been stated: Hit him with force lightning, and cut off his head. Mace would obviously see the weakness of orbalisks, but that is lightning. How would he produce it? Other than Bane using his, is Mace strong enough in the force to make it ALL go into his blade and be reflected, because if one hits him, he is dead, which means Mace would have to be about as strong as Bane is in the force. Wait, is he? I know Mace wins 7/10 times, yes. But I just want to know how Mace would exxploit the electricity flaw, and only m1 place can kill Bane without it. Not a very good argument, but it is one nonetheless......
You don't have to be all powerful to produce lightning any pissed off force user can do it. also mace>plo koon in force power and plo can generate lightning.
Yes mace is powerful enough to make banes lighting hit his blade he did it at almost point blank range in rots to THE most powerful sith sidious lightning.
Yeah, but i think Sidious was holding back so he would let Anakin see him "dying" Bane would not have such restrictions. And yes, Shatterpoint IS a force skill, and Bane does have the force barrier at all times. Banes TK powers range to destroying a temple in 1 blast from a few seconds of concentration, to lifting a reanimated rancor off the ground to kill it(i think) And to cast lightning, one must be instructed on how to do it. I am sure Plo was pissed off enough to just do it instinctively, but i doubt Mace would.
Originally posted by Incanus
Yeah, but i think Sidious was holding back so he would let Anakin see him "dying" Bane would not have such restrictions. And yes, Shatterpoint IS a force skill, and Bane does have the force barrier at all times. Banes TK powers range to destroying a temple in 1 blast from a few seconds of concentration, to lifting a reanimated rancor off the ground to kill it(i think) And to cast lightning, one must be instructed on how to do it. I am sure Plo was pissed off enough to just do it instinctively, but i doubt Mace would.
so if someone has a force barrier up no force power works on him......
the only way shatter point would be negated is if someone like caedous ben luke jaina or mara. And i believe sidious did this in rots. was to hide ones presence in the force so you couldn't be sensed. Something Bane doesn't know how to do.
everything else you said is irrelevant to the fight you are just naming off stuff he can do.
Acutally, Bane can do that, as he taught Zannah to, she just learned a more advanced sorcery of it, and she could project a light side aura, not just hiding. Otherwise, alot of jedi would have found them. And no, if the guy attacking another guy with a force barrier is stronger than the other, then it would break the barrier, and still hit him. But I think Bane is more powerful in the force than Mace is......... Is he? im not entirely sure, but i think...........
A by Incanus
Acutally, Bane can do that, as he taught Zannah to, she just learned a more advanced sorcery of it, and she could project a light side aura, not just hiding. Otherwise, alot of jedi would have found them. And no, if the guy attacking another guy with a force barrier is stronger than the other, then it would break the barrier, and still hit him. But I think Bane is more powerful in the force than A is......... Is he? im not entirely sure, but i think...........
Bane didn't know the ability to completely conceal his force presence from other nor did zannah. I know what you are talking about i own both bane books and have read them they do not posess the same ability.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Very well, on second thought I was probably a little hasty in my evaluation. As I recall, I got a little angry when I saw the argument that since the PT was the 'golden age', that meant that every individual of that age must surely be above every individual of every other. And that Shatterpoint will let Mace instant pwn Bane with all his weaknesses. Though yes, DS has rubbed my nerves raw these last few days.
Well, for starters there is of course the long tired factor of the Orbalisks, which should help counter the fact that Mace uses a foreign style, because Bane also uses a foreign style.
There is also the point that Vaapad is a variant of Juyo, so it is likely the style won't be as earth-shattering to him as Jar'kai.
Now the nature of Vaadad is that it takes the dark side energy from Bane and Mace and uses it against the Bane in a super-conductive loop, as well as boosting Mace. However, the orbalisks function in that they absorb darkside energy. It is probable that this would negate this effect, or at least significantly lessen the effects, though of course not the benefits Windu enjoys from it.
Now as to shatterpoint, it is a fallacy to say that it with allow Mace to see all of Banes weaknesses at once and capitalise instantly. Mace's own description of it reads as- 'I [b]sometimes can see the weak places in an opponent—shatterpoints where the unbreakable can be broken. They can occur in individuals…and in events." Add to this that during his duel with Sidious in the novel it describes him as completely unable to find one, until Skywalker comes in,
despite his obvious desperation for one proves that it is only randomly effective, not under the command of Windu.
Furthermore, it is unlikely given the nature of shatterpoint that Windu would be able to use it to relieve Bane of the Orbalisks as given that quote someone posted about it earlier that -When applied to physical items, shatterpoints worked much in the same manner. An individual would view an item through the Force, noting where it came together and also noting weak points in its composition. By allowing the Force to surge through them into the weak point, individuals could effectively "shatter" the object, causing it to break into multiple fragments.- This would ultimately prove unsuccessful against Bane as POD specifies that Bane keeps a tight force barrier around himself at all times.
Taken this way, and I'm not trying to pass off my theories as fact hence why I only said 'probably' earlier, it seems that the two are matched in terms of the lightsaber, Banes orbalisks rectifying any diffence the two may have in pure blade-to blade skill with its defence. Thus I foresee the duel going into the realms of a stamina match, of which Bane would most probably win.
In terms of the Force, no matter how unpopular this subject may have been made by Nebaris, Bane edges it. He has displayed more devastating offence with his telekinesis, easily disintegrating entire beings with his power, probably utilizing Force Destruction, as well as using his lightning to turn beings into ash and to exceed a million volts.
In terms of Total combat between them, Bane most probably wins. [/B]
LightsnakeI'm sure no one needs to explain why this isn't a valid comparison.
And Jar'Kai is a variant of Ataro, stated in PoD.
Lightsnake
Grievous, who knew Juyo, was not able to replicate Vaapad with his moves
Labyrinth of EvilThe implication is that Grievous couldn't "replicate" Vaapad because he wasn't a Force-sensitive, and therefore was unable to even attempt the "technique of dark flirtation." A few moments of dueling seems to be enough time for him to mimic much of the physical nature of the form, though.
His strikes were as forceful as any Mace had ever had to counter, and his speed was astonishing. But he didn't know Vaapad - - the technique of dark flirtation in which Mace excelled....
Successful at analyzing Mace's lightsaber style, those same computers suggested that Grievous alter his stance and posture, along with the angle of his parries, ripostes, and thrusts.
The result wasn't Vaapad, but it was close enough, and Mace wasn't interested in prolonging the contest any longer than necessary.
LightsnakeThis would be an obvious indicator that individuals don't necessarily have to have combat-related shatterpoints, which, if I'm understanding him correctly, was Neph's point. Palpatine's greatest flaw was that he had complete faith in Anakin; that's irrelevant in a situation like the one we're discussing, a versus match.
Why could THAT be...could it be ANAKIN WAS PALPATINE'S SHATTERPOINT AS MACE REALIZES A VERY SHORT TIME LATER?
Bane's "weak places" would be his head, wrists, and ankles. If you want to call those "shatterpoints" go right ahead, but then you may as well note eyeballs, extremities, and genitals to be [mostly?] universal shatterpoints. You wouldn't necessarily be wrong, it just isn't a very relevant conclusion.
You sort of address this in a different segment of your post, which I appreciate, although you do still seem to put more importance on Bane's only exposed areas than is appropriate considering he's going up against someone with no armor.
Aaaaand... I think I've fulfilled my nitpicking quota for the day. I'm not looking to argue anything, I just haven't had a chance to completely assert my control of you people yet today.