Pirates vs Ninjas (seriously)

Originally posted by dadudemon
Since a ninja is all about NOT having direct combat, then they would win in almost any real world scenario.

The only direct combat I can think of is the surprise attack on the Iga stronghold.

Since when do Pirates travel far inland and attack a stronghold?

since when do pirates and ninja fight at all? in a "real world scenario" ninja and pirates would almost never meet so why are we even discussing this?

Certainly would.

Ninja's had all sorts of projectiles (which did not include throwing stars.) Guns were definitely around when Ninjas were around...so why would a ninja still be around if guns totally nulled ninjas? You do know that Japan was using guns much sooner than the Europeans, right? [/B]

guns first came to japan around 1543 and they were delivered by europeans. in the 1600's ninja started to die out as their tactics and skills became more and more useless. there-in lies the point. ninjas cant compete with the new technology offered by guns. their little darts and stars and what-not simply arent as formidable. that was the entire point of the last samurai... drunk white people with guns > japanese culture in its entirety. there werent even machine guns or full fledged canons. it was the single shot pistol and rifle that was enough to make ninja technology and mannerisms all but obsolete. whats the point in sneaking up on someone and throwing a peice of metal when you can tag them with a bullet from the saftey of a bush 70 feet away?

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
since when do pirates and ninja fight at all? in a "real world scenario" ninja and pirates would almost never meet so why are we even discussing this?

And, I disagree. Ninja missions would most likely end up sabotaging some sort of "pirate-like" warriors at some point. You do know that Japan has a HUGE amount of coast, right?

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
guns first came to japan around 1543 and they were delivered by europeans. in the 1600's ninja started to die out as their tactics and skills became more and more useless. there-in lies the point. ninjas cant compete with the new technology offered by guns.

I think our definition of what constitutes a gun is where we disagree.

Killing someone with a projectile, while using gun powder, is what constitutes a gun, IMO.

The Japanese were using gunpowder well before the 1500s to kill each other.

I can't put a date to it....as i couldn't find anything.

And, no, the ninjas started to die out because they became useless as Japan became united. I posted it for everyone to read.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
their little darts and stars and what-not simply arent as formidable.

B-but...

I already said that they didn't use stars.

And, yes, they were more than enough. Using a gun would be the last thing a Ninja assassin would want to use when on a mission to asassinate a Samurai or someone of higher rank. A gun would be one of the worst things to use.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
that was the entire point of the last samurai... drunk white people with guns > japanese culture in its entirety.

I don't suggest using a movie as an example of Ninja versus Pirates.

Also, they were not Ninjas. They were Samurai, the anti-thesis of Ninajs.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
there werent even machine guns or full fledged canons. it was the single shot pistol and rifle that was enough to make ninja technology and mannerisms all but obsolete.

Logical fallacy. Why would a ninja carry a cannon, rifle, or a machine gun, to secretly kill someone? Does that even make sense? You know...stealth...hiding in the night. Using poison, deceit, etc. Do you even know what a real ninja's skill set is? It's not like naruto, for the most part.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
whats the point in sneaking up on someone and throwing a peice of metal

They didn't use throwing stars. 😐

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
when you can tag them with a bullet from the saftey of a bush 70 feet away?

More likely that the ninja would be the in the bushes, tagging someone with a poisoned dart or arrow, 70 feet away. 😐

Originally posted by dadudemon
It's called "using your imagination."

in my imagination the fight wouldnt play out in the scenario you think it will. and in my imagination i think its very likely that the pirates will go ahead and go in-land and attack a fortress for the lulz. its my imagination after all.

And, I disagree. Ninja missions would most likely end up sabotaging some sort of "pirate-like" warriors at some point. You do know that Japan has a HUGE amount of coast, right?

and im sure many of them ended up getting shot in the face as well if they did fight. 😐

I think our definition of what constitutes a gun is where we disagree.

Killing someone with a projectile, while using gun powder, is what constitutes a gun, IMO.

The Japanese were using gunpowder well before the 1500s to kill each other.

I can't put a date to it....as i couldn't find anything.

the only record i have of japan using gunpowder weapons before the 1600's is in cannons not personal firearms. so its an entirely different ball game. they used gun powder for artillery not anti-personnel. japan didnt majorly use gunpowder weapons like the pistol or rifle until after the ninja already began to
disappear.

And, no, the ninjas started to die out because they became useless as Japan became united. I posted it for everyone to read.

i know. im looking at the same google results youre looking at.

B-but...

I already said that they didn't use stars.

and youre wrong. that one article which incidentally i read before i saw your link to it, states that. however every single article on the internet that is about shuriken says the complete opposite. ninja used shuriken. granted not all shuriken are star-shaped but they did throw sharp metal which were in the shape of a star and they were classified as shuriken. your source is inaccurate.

And, yes, they were more than enough. Using a gun would be the last thing a Ninja assassin would want to use when on a mission to asassinate a Samurai or someone of higher rank. A gun would be one of the worst things to use.

which is interesting because in todays world we assassinate people all the time even with guns and people still manage to do it undetected and discreetly. in fact even 200 years ago before silencers people were discreetly assassinate other people with guns. the ninja didnt assassinate with guns because they werent around when guns became popular.

I don't suggest using a movie as an example of Ninja versus Pirates.

Also, they were not Ninjas. They were Samurai, the anti-thesis of Ninajs.

but my point remains the same. japanese culture and fighting styles simply werent enough. do you honestly think that if ninja had still been around when the europeans took interest in japan it would have made any real difference?

Logical fallacy. Why would a ninja carry a cannon, rifle, or a machine gun, to secretly kill someone? Does that even make sense? You know...stealth...hiding in the night. Using poison, deceit, etc. Do you even know what a real ninja's skill set is? It's not like naruto, for the most part.

its not a logical fallacy at all. stealth hiding in the night deceit etc. are all things that can be accomplished with a gun. 😬 you act liek stealthy assassinations arent possible with firearms.

They didn't use throwing stars. 😐

incorrect.

More likely that the ninja would be the in the bushes, tagging someone with a poisoned dart or arrow, 70 feet away. 😐 [/B]

thatd work against people who had no ranged weapons to speak of and were laying about doing nothing.

on another note. i think its kind of funny that neither of us know what the **** were talking about and we're just using websites from the internet. 😂

and dont deny it. i know [u]you[/i] dont know what the **** youre talking about. 131

my ADHD's kicked in. whatever your next reply states im gonna go ahead and basically agree with it. i dont have the patience to keep going. o.o

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
in my imagination the fight wouldnt play out in the scenario you think it will. and in my imagination i think its very likely that the pirates will go ahead and go in-land and attack a fortress for the lulz. its my imagination after all.

Reality, using your imagination:

European Barbary pirates make their way to Japan in which Ninjas still carry out assassinations.

Pirates rob and pillage like made, using almost a guerrilla-like tactic at sea and on the docked ships.

The local Daiymo highers a ninja group to take them down.

The pirates find out.

The battle begins.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
and im sure many of them ended up getting shot in the face as well if they did fight. 😐

Right, a shot, which was a ball that had questionable accuracy at times, which also was a one fire deal and required some time to reload, would definitely take down a person that shouldn't have been seen to begin with. On top of that, this person has been trained to avoid gunfire, bow fire, and people in general.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
the only record i have of japan using gunpowder weapons before the 1600's is in cannons not personal firearms. so its an entirely different ball game. they used gun powder for artillery not anti-personnel. japan didnt majorly use gunpowder weapons like the pistol or rifle until after the ninja already began to
disappear.

Began to disappear is a gross over-exaggeration. Let's go with die out over the course of 200 years.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
i know. im looking at the same google results youre looking at.

So why say Ninjas died out because guns made them useless when that isn't true?

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
and youre wrong. that one article which incidentally i read before i saw your link to it, states that. however every single article on the internet that is about shuriken says the complete opposite. ninja used shuriken. granted not all shuriken are star-shaped but they did throw sharp metal which were in the shape of a star and they were classified as shuriken. your source is inaccurate.

I thought everyone knew that Ninjas didn't use throwing stars/Chinese stars/ninja stars and that it was a modern misrepresentation of the ninja that lead to the fallacious belief and even misnomer of calling it a 'ninja star."

Where is this evidence of yours?

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
which is interesting because in todays world we assassinate people all the time even with guns and people still manage to do it undetected and discreetly. in fact even 200 years ago before silencers people were discreetly assassinate other people with guns. the ninja didnt assassinate with guns because they werent around when guns became popular.

Modern weaponry /= feudal Japan.

Also, firearms were quite popular in Japan very shortly after the Portuguese introduced them to the Japanese, or did you forget about mentioning that already?

I don't see how any of that negates the fact that using a flint lock pistol, rifle, or cannon, would be the shittiest thing to discreetly, quietly, and quickly assassinate someone in feudal Japan.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
but my point remains the same. japanese culture and fighting styles simply werent enough. do you honestly think that if ninja had still been around when the europeans took interest in japan it would have made any real difference?

Any real difference in what?

And, you seem to still be missing why the ninjas fell out of use: peace. 😐

You mean how all secret government agencies act just like Ninja clans with modern weapons? 😖hifty: What are you referring to when you say "difference"?

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
its not a logical fallacy at all. stealth hiding in the night deceit etc. are all things that can be accomplished with a gun. 😬 you act liek stealthy assassinations arent possible with firearms.

In feudal Japan, not only would the big ass sound of a gun give away the assassin's position, so would the large ass amount of smoke (did you know that?)

Not to mention the inaccuracy problem with a ball.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
incorrect.

Prove that at least one clan or ninja group used throwing stars, and I'll show you that they are the exception to the rule.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
thatd work against people who had no ranged weapons to speak of and were laying about doing nothing.

That's also how it would work, and probably how it worked primarily. They WERE assassins of the night, you know. 😐

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
on another note. i think its kind of funny that neither of us know what the **** were talking about and we're just using websites from the internet. 😂

and dont deny it. i know [u]you[/i] dont know what the **** youre talking about. 131

Speak for yourself.

The only thing I've used from teh internetz is the article I posted about ninjas to help choke off misconceptions and misrepresentations of what ninjas are capable of because it looked like people were going to give them ungodly abilites. Everything is off the top of the head.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
my ADHD's kicked in. whatever your next reply states im gonna go ahead and basically agree with it. i dont have the patience to keep going. o.o

That's good because your last reply was a bunch of strawman arguments that really didn't address most of my previous points. The only one I will concede is the "guns" argument. I grouped all gunpowder weapons together as "guns", which is correct, depending on the use of the word "gun" being used...but we both know that's not what I meant. I confused China's technology for Japan's, thinking that I was safe in assuming that the firearm technology spread to Japan before it spread to Europe. I was only partially correct in that, gunpowder and projectiles being employed with it, were correct.

Despite this, I still know a HUGE amount more about Japan than China. I am really weak on my Chinese history.

i agree with everything. 😐

Originally posted by Robtard
"Only a ninja can kill a ninja" -Enter The Ninja

Yes.

"Jedis are stored neatly in the dvd case. Ninjas are right behind you" - Ask A Ninja

Oops! Sorry, I forgot to specify the conditions.

There is a big lake, and then an island with a lot of forests and a medium sized village. There is a pirate ship with 50 pirates. There are 50 ninjas hiding in the islands. The ninjas can see the pirates but NOT vice versa. The pirate ship has guns and cannons.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Oops! Sorry, I forgot to specify the conditions.

There is a big lake, and then an island with a lot of forests and a medium sized village. There is a pirate ship with 50 pirates. There are 50 ninjas hiding in the islands. The ninjas can see the pirates but NOT vice versa. The pirate ship has guns and cannons.

so, like, what is the conflict?

The ninjas could even just wait the pirates out in that case, as the island would seem to have more food stores.

So, like, the best pirates in the world were the English Navy, so at best, a pirate would be a competent hand to hand fighter, though nowhere close to a ninja, whose training is specifically close combat/hand-to-hand.

Ninjas trained as assassins, pirates trained to navigate ships, boat maintenance, cannon warfare, naval tactics etc.

I can't see how ninjas would ever fight pirates, nor do I think it would be very interesting. Either the pirates don't see it coming, or the ninjas are overwhelmed at a distance, based entirely on what you set as the starting conditions.

For instance, the pirates loosing a huge cannon bombardment of the shores of the island could do serious damage to the ninjas with no possibility of a counter-attack

And oh yeah, the island isn't terribly large; let's just say 2 miles wide/long (about).

It might prove difficult to bombard a 2 by 2 mile area completely. Chances are they would have to disembark and attack the ninjas by land, in which case it is uncertain who would win.

I think that one on one a ninja would probably win. Firearms back in those days were rather unreliable, and the pirate would generally only really get one shot off, assuming that the gun doesn't malfunction. Although ninjas didn't use throwing stars in the same way that hollywood portrays them, they would still use them and other effective long range weapons to counter the pirate's guns. The thowing stars/blowguns/darts would probably be more accurate and you'd get more shots off than the pirate's gun, so the ninja has a better chance of survival. Close range I'm pretty sure that the ninja would be better skilled, but forgive me if I'm wrong...

Originally posted by inimalist
So, like, the best pirates in the world were the English Navy

Surely you're thinking of privateers 😛

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
And oh yeah, the island isn't terribly large; let's just say 2 miles wide/long (about).

It might prove difficult to bombard a 2 by 2 mile area completely. Chances are they would have to disembark and attack the ninjas by land, in which case it is uncertain who would win.

I think that one on one a ninja would probably win. Firearms back in those days were rather unreliable, and the pirate would generally only really get one shot off, assuming that the gun doesn't malfunction. Although ninjas didn't use throwing stars in the same way that hollywood portrays them, they would still use them and other effective long range weapons to counter the pirate's guns. The thowing stars/blowguns/darts would probably be more accurate and you'd get more shots off than the pirate's gun, so the ninja has a better chance of survival. Close range I'm pretty sure that the ninja would be better skilled, but forgive me if I'm wrong...

no, that was my point. You really couldn't make a situation where one isn't just going to have the advantage. If the pirates have to come to land, they might as well be trained thugs, as they AREN'T land soldiers, but rather naval soldiers. The reverse is true if the ninjas have to come to water.

And the bombardment would be immensely effective, especially if they were going to land. They would probably do well to burn/siege as much of the forest as they could. Bombarding a landing point on the island would give them some safe room to move.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Surely you're thinking of privateers 😛

lol, privateers vs ninjas then

It might be smart for the pirates to have half of the team go somewhat into the islands and for the rest to stay on the ship, and then the land team could draw the ninjas out only to be slaughtered by cannons.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I am being serious and not stupid.

Ninjas would win in almost any scenario.

http://asianhistory.about.com/od/warsinasia/p/NinjaProfile.htm

(If we're being serious)

Hahahaha, silly ninja fanboy, someone's been watching too many ninja movies.

Pirates have far better weapons and are for all intents and purposes, highly skilled soldiers who have no qualms about using dirty tactics.

Originally posted by Robtard

Pirates have far better weapons and are for all intents and purposes, highly skilled soldiers who have no qualms about using dirty tactics.

In this scenario the fact that ninjas are hiding and know the location of the clueless pirates would be a big advantage, but so would the pirates' cannons.

Originally posted by Robtard
(If we're being serious)

Hahahaha, silly ninja fanboy, someone's been watching too many ninja movies.

Pirates have far better weapons and are for all intents and purposes, highly skilled soldiers who have no qualms about using dirty tactics.

Hahahah, silly pirate fanboy, someone's been watching too much Yellowbeard.

Please tell me, sir, why a Ninja would be at sea fighting a pirate?

Edit -
In fact, I specifically posted some of the things I did to talk down the ninjas' abilities because it was getting out of hand.

Evidence:

Originally posted by dadudemon
...I posted about ninjas to help choke off misconceptions and misrepresentations of what ninjas are capable of because it looked like people were going to give them ungodly abilites.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Hahahah, silly pirate fanboy, someone's been watching too much Yellowbeard.

Please tell me, sir, why a Ninja would be at sea fighting a pirate?

Edit -
In fact, I specifically posted some of the things I did to talk down the ninjas' abilities because it was getting out of hand.

Evidence:

Ha, no. I grew up watching every silly 80's ninja flick, if anything, I'm a ninja fanboy. But at least I'm able to separate fact from fiction.

Logically, they'd probably never meet. This is a "what if" scenario.

Ninjas were spies and information gatherers first and foremost, assassins when needed. Many a jobless samurai worked as a spy/assassin when times were hard. Still, guns, explosives and sheer ferocity wins here, ie technology wins here.

Originally posted by Robtard
But at least I'm able to separate fact from fiction.

Which exactly what I've been arguing about with Ms. Marvel for a page. 😐

Originally posted by Robtard
Logically, they'd probably never meet. This is a "what if" scenario.

Already been covered. 😐

Originally posted by Robtard
Ninjas were spies and information gatherers first and foremost,

You goof. They had specializations. Some were assassins, Some were recon, Some were special thieves, etc.

Where's your evidence that they were first and formast info. gatherers?

Originally posted by Robtard
assassins when needed. Many a jobless samurai worked as a spy/assassin when times were hard.

You mean dishonored Samurai who refused to commit Sepuku, right?

Originally posted by Robtard
Still, guns, explosives and sheer ferocity wins here, ie technology wins here.

Except, that it doesn't.

Proper scenario is the one I setup. Find it. 😐