Originally posted by -Pr-but, kal-El going back in time and joining the JSA reinforces that this future version of superman does age and will age... hence, that over rides the superman one million which again we dont know what allowed him to reach said lvls no history or outside factors, no context.. he shouldnt be used as superman being naturally immortal/extremely long lived.
except he was canonically stated to live thousands of years, not hundreds. it over-rides kingdom come.
Originally posted by carver9I didn't bring her up. You also realize that Final Crisis 6 is after most of that, right? Of course other characters are going to shine occasionally. However, in direct confrontation, she had to kill Max because she couldn't stop Superman, and in another, she got downed with Heat vision.
She also admitted during that arc that she was holding back because superman was a friend. You can't base what happened back then to current wonder woman since she is more powerful... hell , she has shown that she can shoot lightning bolts out of her hands now and have on panel statements of being faster than superman. These are things that was never stated or shown in the past. Then we have her and konvikt showing where she did much better against a more powerful konvikt than the one superman faced... then outrught have her performing better against amazo than any of the members of the jla.Bringing her up didn't help your argument.
Originally posted by Juntai
Adam doesn't hold back, what you've seen is what you get, and he's no more impressive really, featwise than plain old everyday Superman. Superman getting serious is in a different league. Even you haters should understand that by now.Though I suppose we can forget in Final Crisis 6 that Superman downed Wonder Woman and her whole platoon of heros and villains with a blast of heat vision. [lol, "Look, up in the sky!"] Right before he punched open the singularity and destroyed a god. Instead we'll focus on the time it was he who was mind controlled, and still would have won the fight anyways, had she not changed tactics and made the ultimate decision to take a life to save everyone because she knew she couldn't stop him. Something she's admitted many times.
WRONG adam usually dont hold back but he does at times and the last time they fought superman was more agressive then adam was and adam took his best shots. Till supes decided to go ape shit and knock him to the moon and adam turned his back on him. This type pf superman is beyond even the marvels i think. the marvels and BA dont get any kinda of natural amps like supeman does. Without theses natural amps (sundipping and rage) Ba is more then a match for superman.
I dont like it when someone compare's superman rageing or a sundiupped supes to other bricks. Supes is getting a amp and in all honesty i cant really think of any other brick os supes level physically when hes that pissed and sundipped. Sure they will put up a fight but they aint winning, why casue supes is AMPED. could you imagine DOV marvel against a sundipped supes. Supes dies fast.
Supes (no amps) vs Black Adam or captian marvel no amps 50/50
supes (rageing, and sundipped) vs DOV captian marvel =supes dead
Originally posted by King Castle
but, kal-El going back in time and joining the JSA reinforces that this future version of superman does age and will age... hence, that over rides the superman one million which again we dont know what allowed him to reach said lvls no history or outside factors, no context.. he shouldnt be used as superman being naturally immortal/extremely long lived.
i'm not talking about superman one million.
i'm talking about a vision of the future shown in a canon book. an actually stated canon book.
you are referring to flash running and seeing a man in colored boots as the sun dies out, right?
i grant you that it is probably superman but we dont know how he got that way or that far and to say supes is "naturally" immortal is a stretch with no evidence or story to fill those gaps from now to then..
Originally posted by zeel
WRONG adam usually dont hold back but he does at times and the last time they fought superman was more agressive then adam was and adam took his best shots. Till supes decided to go ape shit and knock him to the moon and adam turned his back on him. This type pf superman is beyond even the marvels i think. the marvels and BA dont get any kinda of natural amps like supeman does. Without theses natural amps (sundipping and rage) Ba is more then a match for superman.I dont like it when someone compare's superman rageing or a sundiupped supes to other bricks. Supes is getting a amp and in all honesty i cant really think of any other brick os supes level physically when hes that pissed and sundipped. Sure they will put up a fight but they aint winning, why casue supes is AMPED. could you imagine DOV marvel against a sundipped supes. Supes dies fast.
Supes (no amps) vs Black Adam or captian marvel no amps 50/50
supes (rageing, and sundipped) vs DOV captian marvel =supes dead
Supes raging is not an amp. That's just him cutting loose.
Which the Marvels can do as well.
When Cap and Superman face off, both are holding back. Superman didn't know this until they fused and then he was flabbergasted by how much power Cap had, whereas Cap was nonchalant about feeling Supes power, probably already predicting the extent of it and how much Clark holds back on a daily basis since Cap does the same thing.
Cap has roughly the same physical stats as Supes all across the board, whether both are at full power or not. Supes should have more speed, but Cap/Adam will have more stamina/better HF.
Originally posted by Juntai
I didn't bring her up. You also realize that Final Crisis 6 is after most of that, right? Of course other characters are going to shine occasionally. However, in direct confrontation, she had to kill Max because she couldn't stop Superman, and in another, she got downed with Heat vision.
But the thing you fail to realize is that cis play a huge role when superman is facing jla member... hell, cis plays a huge role regarding superman against people outside of the jla. Eclipso took complete control of superman body and went head on at cap with all of superman ablities and cap still held back. Black adam even held back and turned his back on superman and black adam is an out right killer. Wonder woman also admitted more than once that she was holding back in a fight against supes.
Superman is the most respect character in dcu and "everyone" respects him... even villians. So again, you bringing up his showings against heros is irrelevant since we both know that they will not do anything to harm earths champion.
Originally posted by King Castle
you are referring to flash running and seeing a man in colored boots as the sun dies out, right?i grant you that it is probably superman but we dont know how he got that way or that far and to say supes is "naturally" immortal is a stretch with no evidence or story to fill those gaps from now to then..
i'm talking about JSA, not what you're talking about.
Originally posted by carver9
But the thing you fail to realize is that cis play a huge role when superman is facing jla member... hell, cis plays a huge role regarding superman against people outside of the jla. Eclipso took complete control of superman body and went head on at cap with all of superman ablities and cap still held back. Black adam even held back and turned his back on superman and black adam is an out right killer. Wonder woman also admitted more than once that she was holding back in a fight against supes.Superman is the most respect character in dcu and "everyone" respects him... even villians. So again, you bringing up his showings against heros is irrelevant since we both know that they will not do anything to harm earths champion.
that's not true at all.
adam turned his back because he knew superman wouldn't hit a man in the back. there was nothing about him holding back. adam outright stated that he didn't want to fight superman.
wonder woman? even when he was mind controlled he was beating her, so not a good example.
you could even make the case that eclipso weakened him. cap refused to kill him when superman begged him to. that's pretty much all the "holding back" you're referring to.
superman has fought tons of heroes, heroes that were even brain washed to fight him, and he was still able to put them down. this has happened more than once, so tbh, you're just coming across as low-balling, dude.
Originally posted by carver9
But the thing you fail to realize is that cis play a huge role when superman is facing jla member... hell, cis plays a huge role regarding superman against people outside of the jla. Eclipso took complete control of superman body and went head on at cap with all of superman ablities and cap still held back. Black adam even held back and turned his back on superman and black adam is an out right killer. Wonder woman also admitted more than once that she was holding back in a fight against supes.Superman is the most respect character in dcu and "everyone" respects him... even villians. So again, you bringing up his showings against heros is irrelevant since we both know that they will not do anything to harm earths champion.
I subscribe to the theory that both are equal, but there are examples that suggest Supes can take it to another level.
For one, there's that "Genesis" New Gods story, where Superman was in energy form and believed if he had his powers, he could have single handedly taken Darkseid's entire squad, which includes Kalibak and the Furies. Captain Marvel was in this story, and he didn't stand out from the other characters or do anything noteworthy, and even struggled with Kalibak alone (To be fair, he was attacked while his back was turned)
And Superman HAS, in fact, gone through most of Apokolip's forces during the storyline that where Brainiac had the world thinking Supermans body was still in his tomb, and the real Superman was an impostor.
There's also Darkseid having a high opinion of Supes abilities, believing he could withstand a combined assault from Mantis and Kalibak with no problems.
On the other, other hand, Darkseids words don't match what was actually happening on panel, which is Superman struggling with Kalibak and Mantis, and nearly being knocked unconscious by their combined attacks. And Supes has struggled with Kalibak in the past alone as well...
There's lots more examples though, like Probe Busting Superman... Where was Cap during that storyline?
Or Doomsday Wars/Death of Superman, where characters usually considered on par with Supes couldn't really touch the monster. Orion and Martian Manhunter combined couldn't last even half a minute in Doomsday Wars, if not less, and while Supes got his head handed to him he performed better.
I think if you look at pure feats, Superman comes out on top because of his long, long history in comics (Even looking at purely post crisis examples, he has exponentially more then Captain Marvel and Black Adam combined.)
Originally posted by -Pr-
i'm talking about JSA, not what you're talking about.that's not true at all.
adam turned his back because he knew superman wouldn't hit a man in the back. there was nothing about him holding back. adam outright stated that he didn't want to fight superman.
wonder woman? even when he was mind controlled he was beating her, so not a good example.
you could even make the case that eclipso weakened him. cap refused to kill him when superman begged him to. that's pretty much all the "holding back" you're referring to.
superman has fought tons of heroes, heroes that were even brain washed to fight him, and he was still able to put them down. this has happened more than once, so tbh, you're just coming across as low-balling, dude.
To be fair, Wonder Woman DID claim she was pulling her punches.
And Cap was likely holding back in both fights with Eclipsed Superman.. But then, so was Superman against Eclipsed Lar Gand, and he managed to win his fight (And while suffocating).
Originally posted by cdtm
To be fair, Wonder Woman DID claim she was pulling her punches.And Cap was likely holding back in both fights with Eclipsed Superman.. But then, so was Superman against Eclipsed Lar Gand, and he managed to win his fight (And while suffocating).
she did, but she also added the word "barely" at the end.
plus, he's consciously (yes, as opposed to subconsciously) held back against her in the past and been a match if not moreso for her.
cap was keeping his emotions in check, i'll give him that, but he did seem like he was struggling all the same (to me) until he brought out the lightning.
double post. bollocks.
Originally posted by cdtm
On the other, other hand, Darkseids words don't match what was actually happening on panel, which is Superman struggling with Kalibak and Mantis, and nearly being knocked unconscious by their combined attacks. And Supes has struggled with Kalibak in the past alone as well...
one thing: it was stated that i think it was kalibak got very lucky, and superman was distracted.
There's lots more examples though, like Probe Busting Superman... Where was Cap during that storyline?
he was around, though he didn't do much bar assault warworld with superman and captain atom when it reappeared.
both cap and superman couldn't break through, and it was only clark's sundip that allowed him to gain entry to warworld (the entire reason he did the thing in the first place, not to move the planet as others have stated in the past)
Originally posted by -Pr-
double post. bollocks.one thing: it was stated that i think it was kalibak got very lucky, and superman was distracted.
True, he caught Supes with a wild swing, and off guard.
But the way Darkseid was talking before the lucky attacks, you'd think he could have tanked anything they dished out, even if he just stood there and took their best shots.