What if the Empire invaded the FOTJ era galaxy

A New Hope. That should be all you need, but I doubt you will be able to figure it out.

The Falcon lands, Imperials go onboard, scan the vehicle, find nothing. They leave, up pops a floor panel, and presto, there are our heroes. They proceed to make an absolute MOCKERY of anything resembling a security system onboard the Death Star.
In several ways: 1. they proved that by wearing stormtrooper armor, they can pretty much march down any hallway ever. (so maybe LOTF council just tries THAT approach)

2. Kenobi was able to waltz straight to the tractor beam and turn it off without anyone ever noticing it was off. He was completely undetected until Vader went and got him. Where was the security scanners?

I get what you are saying DE, but force users in LOTF had learned how to completely fool security systems. even Alema had mastered it. It was only by coming up with software that tracked the static that they were able to track her.

I don't have an opinion yet. I haven't seen enough evidence from either party. Just a lot of bashing and sarcasm. What happened to cogent points people?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Luke is no infiltrator, and would ultimately fail miseribly as one, so I sincerely doubt that he'll be able to take on Palpatines security network even if he can short circuit scanners And all the while he risks detection from other security forces and Palpatines senses, particularly with such a huge party of individuals.

"Luke is no infiltrator" actually he has been shown to infiltrate place quite successfully. Way back in ANH he, Han Solo and Obi Wan infiltrated the Death Star, which one would suppose would have pretty tight security.

I'm not even sure if Sidious has all that security, given how blindingly arrogant he is.

All Force cloak does is bend light around the jedi, the same way any other stealth generator does, the Force itself plays no part in it and thus the the scanners don't have to circumvent it. Plus it still fails to take into account things like air oscillations etc and nothing suggests that they have portible jamming equipment on par with the super-technology of the Empire or the mega paranoid Palpatines security system.

You may have a point, although the last part is likely false. The GFFA is more technologically advanced than the Empire.

They could but by this time Palps has been warned and has time to escape, cloak himself in a similar manner or simply fight them with the combined forces of his guards and military (probably millions), which he will win, effectively obliterating the chances of the FOTJ galaxy.

But Palpatine won't have time to escape: Luke Battle Melded with 12 Jedi Masters would be RIDICULOUSLY fast; even back in NJO he looked as though he was wielding 12 lightsabers at once. And again, Sidious likely won't attempt to escape, given how blindingly arrogant he is.

Originally posted by truejedi
A New Hope. That should be all you need, but I doubt you will be able to figure it out.

The Falcon lands, Imperials go onboard, scan the vehicle, find nothing. They leave, up pops a floor panel, and presto, there are our heroes. They proceed to make an absolute MOCKERY of anything resembling a security system onboard the Death Star.
In several ways: 1. they proved that by wearing stormtrooper armor, they can pretty much march down any hallway ever. (so maybe LOTF council just tries THAT approach)

2. Kenobi was able to waltz straight to the tractor beam and turn it off without anyone ever noticing it was off. He was completely undetected until Vader went and got him. Where was the security scanners?

I get what you are saying DE, but force users in LOTF had learned how to completely fool security systems. even Alema had mastered it. It was only by coming up with software that tracked the static that they were able to track her.

I don't have an opinion yet. I haven't seen enough evidence from either party. Just a lot of bashing and sarcasm. What happened to cogent points people?

Lol what a coincidence you said a very similar thing as me at almost the same time (I didn't read your post until after I posted mine)

The Falcon lands, Imperials go onboard, scan the vehicle, find nothing. They leave, up pops a floor panel, and presto, there are our heroes.

The Falcon has powerful sensor jammers, they were hiding in a specific smuggling hole designed to hide things and they killed the sensor team before they were picked up.

I get what you are saying DE, but force users in LOTF had learned how to completely fool security systems. even Alema had mastered it. It was only by coming up with software that tracked the static that they were able to track her.

Alema is an assassin, isn't in this fight and there isn't any evidence that the Jedi are as skilled in that area as her.

In several ways: 1. they proved that by wearing stormtrooper armor, they can pretty much march down any hallway ever. (so maybe LOTF council just tries THAT approach)

Wouldn't work. By the time they get anywhere near Palpatine they'd have to pass security and wouldn't have the right security clearance, codes etc to get through.

"Luke is no infiltrator" actually he has been shown to infiltrate place quite successfully. Way back in ANH he, Han Solo and Obi Wan infiltrated the Death Star, which one would suppose would have pretty tight security.

Actually its more likely given the sheer incredible size of the thing that its security wasn't up to par. That thing is HUGE and it would be f'ing impossible to maintain a tight security network effectively. Plus it is completely different from Palpatine's imperial palace, which is not only apparantly a maze but is designed to house and protect The Emperor himself, so access to Palpatine would be monitered and staffed at all times. Security would be tight and you'd need to be scanned and have clearance to get in. The Death Star on the other hand is a battle station, so its much more slanted towards military defense. Against boarding parties, invasion etc.

But Palpatine won't have time to escape: Luke Battle Melded with 12 Jedi Masters would be RIDICULOUSLY fast; even back in NJO he looked as though he was wielding 12 lightsabers at once. And again, Sidious likely won't attempt to escape, given how blindingly arrogant he is.

Yeah he would. Sidious isn't thick enough to take on 12+ Jedi Masters and Luke Skywalker at once. And it doesn't matter how fast they are, Sidious could just go invisible, hide his presence in the Force and flee, leaving the Jedi to fight their way out of 3 kilometers of imperial palace. He'd find out they're coming waaay before they get into range.

Plus their speed would be unquantifiable, is vague at best and isn't usable in a forum setting.

N, why bother?

Spoiler:
You did make some pretty good points though.

TJ
I don't have an opinion yet.

😂

TJ
I haven't seen enough evidence from either party.

😐

TJ
Just a lot of bashing and sarcasm. What happened to cogent points people?

I've made tons of those cogent points. Your boy, here, is the one saying that twelve Jedi could just walk into a heavily fortified palace and kill the galaxy's most powerful and protected man.

Now we both know that his ass has been thoroughly and decisively kicked by yours truly, but if you'd like to pretend that he actually made some good points, I'd suggest arguing on his behalf. You're ten times the debater he is.

So hows Luke going to avoid them detecting his weapons, metals, life-formissions, his movements blah blah? And is he invisile on the ultraviolet and infrared level? How's he going to get past scanners that can detact invisible stuff or on an audio level?

I only read this post, but there is precedent. Mara Jade, who was by no means as accomplished as Luke in any area of the Force during this attempt, was able to conceal herself from cameras while simultaneously containing all of her thermal emissions. She would have been invisible to thermal sensors. As I remember, the narrator said that any master would know the technique.

Do you think Luke will be unable to do that?

Spoiler:
I love how easy it is to prolong arguments, and that I no longer bother to read them. HWKN, i hope this helps?

I guess TJ can cover the rebuttals for him.

Originally posted by Nephthys

Actually its more likely given the sheer incredible size of the thing that its security wasn't up to par. That thing is HUGE and it would be f'ing impossible to maintain a tight security network effectively. Plus it is completely different from Palpatine's imperial palace, which is not only apparantly a maze but is designed to house and protect The Emperor himself, so access to Palpatine would be monitered and staffed at all times. Security would be tight and you'd need to be scanned and have clearance to get in. The Death Star on the other hand is a battle station, so its much more slanted towards military defense. Against boarding parties, invasion etc.

Given how advanced SW technology is, it wouldn't be beyond possibility to at least have security cameras in something that you spent countless credits building.

Yeah he would. Sidious isn't thick enough to take on 12+ Jedi Masters and Luke Skywalker at once. And it doesn't matter how fast they are, Sidious could just go invisible, hide his presence in the Force and flee, leaving the Jedi to fight their way out of 3 kilometers of imperial palace. He'd find out they're coming waaay before they get into range.

Sidious can't go invisible.

Plus their speed would be unquantifiable, is vague at best and isn't usable in a forum setting.

NJO Luke was shown wielding (sorry, not 12 lightsabers, my mistake) 20 lightsabers at once. He's gotten far stronger since and in this case is in a Battle Meld with 12 other Jedi Masters.

Originally posted by Gideon

I've made tons of those cogent points. Your boy, here, is the one saying that twelve Jedi could just walk into a heavily fortified palace and kill the galaxy's most powerful and protected man.
Now we both know that his ass has been thoroughly and decisively kicked by yours truly, but if you'd like to pretend that he actually made some good points, I'd suggest arguing on his behalf. You're ten times the debater he is.

I've disproved all of your points. You're twisting my claim to make it sound less plausible than it actually is: these aren't just 12 Jedi, they're 12 of the most powerful Jedi that ever lived; one of them is THE most powerful Jedi or any other Force user to ever live, using a Battle Meld.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I only read this post, but there is precedent. Mara Jade, who was by no means as accomplished as Luke in any area of the Force during this attempt, was able to conceal herself from cameras while simultaneously containing all of her thermal emissions. She would have been invisible to thermal sensors. As I remember, the narrator said that any master would know the technique.

Do you think Luke will be unable to do that?

Spoiler:
I love how easy it is to prolong arguments, and that I no longer bother to read them. HWKN, i hope this helps?

I appreciate the help, although calling me HWK"N" is unprovoked and uncalled for, especially since I do know more than nothing; I already knew what you said in your first paragraph.

Or, and I'll admit that this does sound a little sketchy, but Luke could equip his Stealth X with a high powered bomb that can be dropped from orbit, go to Coruscant and then just bomb the Emperor's palace. Stealth X's have been stated to be invisible to both the naked eye and sensors; and, with Luke's Force hiding, to Force users as well.

RN
I only read this post, but there is precedent. Mara Jade, who was by no means as accomplished as Luke in any area of the Force during this attempt, was able to conceal herself from cameras while simultaneously containing all of her thermal emissions. She would have been invisible to thermal sensors. As I remember, the narrator said that any master would know the technique.

Do you think Luke will be unable to do that?

Cite the source and exact quote please.

Originally posted by Gideon
Cite the source and exact quote please.

One of the LOTF books. Thrakan Sal Solo's fortress mansion pace.

Autokrat
One of the LOTF books. Thrakan Sal Solo's fortress mansion pace.

...

There are nine of those, you sumbitch. Don't make me look through all of them.

Edit: Hold plz.

Are you sure it was Mara Jade? I'm pretty sure it was Alema and if anything, they learned ALema's technique.

DS
Are you sure it was Mara Jade?

Actually, it wouldn't surprise me. Mara Jade was trained to be more of an assassin and stealth hunter than an outright warrior.

Spoiler:
Guess who trained her in those particular arts?

DS
I'm pretty sure it was Alema and if anything, they learned ALema's technique.

Ya, I'm so confuzzled; I need ze source and ze quote.

I feel like I've used this exact source recently.

Um... wookiee cites it as being in Betrayal, but I don't have the page number. the quote from the Russian site is:

It was time to be a Jedi instead of a spy. As a spy, she'd probably have fixed a line thrower to the top of the CorSec building, launched a driller projectile, trailing a nearly invisible cable, to affix itself to the top of Thrackan's dome, and used a powered or hand-cranked winch to carry her the quarter kilometer from rooftop to rooftop . . . and even so, her chances of detection would have been very high. Instead, she carried almost no equipment, and her chances of detection would be determined by her own concentration.

She allowed herself to float down to stand just above the blue clover. The bubble of Force energy that kept her aloft was easier to maintain when she was mere centimeters above the surface-merely having the mental image, the paradigm, of it as a sort of air-filled balloon improved her ability to perceive it, to maintain it. She'd need to employ all the concentration tricks she knew, because what she was about to do was very tricky.

At the base of the wall, she stood a moment, eyes closed, and focused on the other things she'd have to do to cross two hundred meters of sensor-filled open space.

Air. She could not keep air from moving, of course. As she moved, she would displace it. But she added motion to the air she displaced, so that it moved out in a single stream, losing neither speed nor coherence for dozens of meters ahead of her. To a sensor, it would read not as the movement of a person across the lawn, but as a breeze.

Heat. That would be the trickiest part. If she radiated heat, infrared sensors would inevitably pick it up. She surrounded herself with another bubble, this one of containment . . . and immediately felt her temperature begin to rise as the heat she expended stayed within centimeters of her skin. She could even control herself to the point that she did not sweat, and would need to do so here-but that, too, would increase her internal temperature.

She couldn't sustain the effect of heat entrapment for long; she would end up collapsing. But she should be able to sustain it long enough to cross the open space between wall and bunker . . . and in that time, infrared detectors would not see her.

Probably.

She stepped forward, concentrating on the act of walking, reminding herself that the movement of her legs was only a comforting paradigm-levitating in some other pose would require more of her attention. Each step felt a bit wobbly, as though she were moving across a flexible playground surface, but she fell into a regular pace and let her muscle memory do the work for her.

Yes, any Jedi Knight might know one of these three techniques-most commonly, the technique of levitation. But only a Jedi Master was likely to know all three or be able to sustain them simultaneously across such a broad distance.

Originally posted by Gideon
...

There are nine of those, you sumbitch. Don't make me look through all of them.

Edit: Hold plz.

There was actually a big argument over it relating to the capabilities of a Master and what Master Level actually means.

Anyways I'm dead certain it was Mara.

SOURCE

It was time to be a Jedi instead of a spy. As a spy, she'd probably have fixed a line thrower to the top of the CorSec building, launched a driller projectile, trailing a nearly invisible cable, to affix itself to the top of Thrackan's dome, and used a powered or hand-cranked winch to carry her the quarter kilometer from rooftop to rooftop . . . and even so, her chances of detection would have been very high. Instead, she carried almost no equipment, and her chances of detection would be determined by her own concentration.

She allowed herself to float down to stand just above the blue clover. The bubble of Force energy that kept her aloft was easier to maintain when she was mere centimeters above the surface-merely having the mental image, the paradigm, of it as a sort of air-filled balloon improved her ability to perceive it, to maintain it. She'd need to employ all the concentration tricks she knew, because what she was about to do was very tricky.

At the base of the wall, she stood a moment, eyes closed, and focused on the other things she'd have to do to cross two hundred meters of sensor-filled open space.

Air. She could not keep air from moving, of course. As she moved, she would displace it. But she added motion to the air she displaced, so that it moved out in a single stream, losing neither speed nor coherence for dozens of meters ahead of her. To a sensor, it would read not as the movement of a person across the lawn, but as a breeze.

Heat. That would be the trickiest part. If she radiated heat, infrared sensors would inevitably pick it up. She surrounded herself with another bubble, this one of containment . . . and immediately felt her temperature begin to rise as the heat she expended stayed within centimeters of her skin. She could even control herself to the point that she did not sweat, and would need to do so here-but that, too, would increase her internal temperature.

She couldn't sustain the effect of heat entrapment for long; she would end up collapsing. But she should be able to sustain it long enough to cross the open space between wall and bunker . . . and in that time, infrared detectors would not see her.

Probably.

She stepped forward, concentrating on the act of walking, reminding herself that the movement of her legs was only a comforting paradigm-levitating in some other pose would require more of her attention. Each step felt a bit wobbly, as though she were moving across a flexible playground surface, but she fell into a regular pace and let her muscle memory do the work for her.

Yes, any Jedi Knight might know one of these three techniques-most commonly, the technique of levitation. But only a Jedi Master was likely to know all three or be able to sustain them simultaneously across such a broad distance.

😄

I only read this post, but there is precedent. Mara Jade, who was by no means as accomplished as Luke in any area of the Force during this attempt, was able to conceal herself from cameras while simultaneously containing all of her thermal emissions. She would have been invisible to thermal sensors. As I remember, the narrator said that any master would know the technique.

Do you think Luke will be unable to do that?

Oh yeah thanks RN its really great you started posting again. 😐

Spoiler:
Backstabber

I'd also like the quote and source please. And even then it isn't proof that Luke has it, as Mara was taught to be specialised as an infiltrator. Also, remember that it was Sidious himself who taught her most of what she knew. If she got the technique from him then he likely has a defense against it.

Ah.

Given how advanced SW technology is, it wouldn't be beyond possibility to at least have security cameras in something that you spent countless credits building.

Whatever. Security cameras or not the security likely was crap. And this has no bearing on the thread or your scenario anyway so why are we actually talking about it?

Sidious can't go invisible.

I'm no Sidious expert but I find that unlikely.

NJO Luke was shown wielding (sorry, not 12 lightsabers, my mistake) 20 lightsabers at once. He's gotten far stronger since and in this case is in a Battle Meld with 12 other Jedi Masters.

Its still unquantifiable. How much faster would he be exactly? Lightspeed? How do you know that there isn't a limit to how fast teh Force can increase teh human bodies speed. In fact there likely is. Too fast and you'll smash your own bones and flay your own skin. So yeah, you need to prove he can go faster than his top speed. Plus that was arm movement speed. Jedi have consistently shown that the can strike much faster than they can run.

Or, and I'll admit that this does sound a little sketchy, but Luke could equip his Stealth X with a high powered bomb that can be dropped from orbit, go to Coruscant and then just bomb the Emperor's palace. Stealth X's have been stated to be invisible to both the naked eye and sensors; and, with Luke's Force hiding, to Force users as well.

The bomb would be detected and Sidious would either evacuate or push the it out of the way a la Yoda in Dark Rendevous.

edit: Yeah, good luck doing all that while shielding yourself from the Force and cloaking for a good 3 kilometers of Imperial palace. And thats just vertically.

N., I promise to stop now. I just thought I should get some helping in before I left.

You should have been helping ME!!!!!!!

fffuuu

Originally posted by Nephthys

Whatever. Security cameras or not the security likely was crap. And this has no bearing on the thread or your scenario anyway so why are we actually talking about it?

And what evidence is there that Sidious's palace is any better protected? Sidious himself went on the Death Star and still it wasn't that well protected from within.

And again, Sidious would not prepare for a massed assault from Force users because 1. he is arrogant and 2. there weren't enough Jedi left that were organized enough to pose a threat.

I'm no Sidious expert but I find that unlikely.

Well it isn't true. To my knowledge only Luke has done this.

Its still unquantifiable. How much faster would he be exactly? Lightspeed? How do you know that there isn't a limit to how fast teh Force can increase teh human bodies speed. In fact there likely is. Too fast and you'll smash your own bones and flay your own skin. So yeah, you need to prove he can go faster than his top speed. Plus that was arm movement speed. Jedi have consistently shown that the can strike much faster than they can run.

Definitely far faster than Sidious.

The bomb would be detected and Sidious would either evacuate or push the it out of the way a la Yoda in Dark Rondevous.

I thought that shadow bombs can't be detected...Luke and his allies could just make a more powerful version of it and bomb the palace to bits...or use a superpowered laser.

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize that you needed help to rebut HWKN. I should have remember what level of intelligence you have to work with. I'll be more careful in the future.