Greatest Swordsman Marvel/DC

Started by Disappear6 pages

[the balder rip was a joke, by the way. nobody gets me.]

that definition seems to eradicate the need for the "peak human" definition, which i often apply to cap and BP and similar types, because it makes "superhuman" attainable WITHOUT the outside influence. it also hinges on who or what you consider "ordinary." the most basic interpretation of superhuman, as far as i can see, is that it's "above human," or "beyond human" or "past human." if a normal human could accomplish as superhuman feat, without outside influences causing them to adapt [science, genes, magic,] then the feat just can't be considered superhuman. a human did it. it's within the realm of human ability. if lifting two tons was considered superhuman, but then a guy in sweden trained for his whole life and lifted 2.1 tons, that wouldn't make him "superhuman," it would make the feat "human."

but that's also a somewhat narrow look, depending on numerical qualifiers. for example, if someone was scientifically, genetically or magically altered to possess a certain heightened physical skill, but that physical skill was still attainable to a human being [running 25 mph, lifting such-and-such weight, etc,] they'd be superhuman under the definition of no longer being "just human," not in that they could accomplish more than a normal human could.

i understand there's chi and ki and all that spiritual stuff involved in martial arts, but that isn't mysticism or magic. it might, under some definition, be energy manipulation, but it's not magic. in marvel martial arts is a form of spiritual purification or physical meditation, but it isn't a form of magic. characters like strange who "learned every martial art" and can perform magic didn't suddenly start spitting out spells after a punch, or start kicking teeth in after a spell. they were two separately-learned crafts. they simply work in harmony, given the whole spiritual/meditative principle.

anyway, i still don't believe a physical ability can be learned by a human, and somehow make them "superhuman." either that person wasn't human to start with, there's an outside-influence, or whatever they're doing can't be considered "superhuman" anymore.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Why does everyone keep ignoring me?

Everyone ignores me, too, but most of my comments are for my own amusement so I don't mind too much.

Originally posted by Galan007
i doubt many people know of this character, but rai is easily the most skilled swordsman in the valiant-verse.

You mean batmans trainer? Of so did he not get beaten by both batman and night wing in a sword fight?

also if it who I think it is, he would not touch Ogun.

Originally posted by Disappear

it might, under some definition, be energy manipulation, but it's not magic. in marvel martial arts is a form of spiritual purification or physical meditation, but it isn't a form of magic. characters like strange who "learned every martial art" and can perform magic didn't suddenly start spitting out spells after a punch, or start kicking teeth in after a spell. they were two separately-learned crafts. they simply work in harmony, given the whole spiritual/meditative principle.

Wrong actaully it consider ninjistu magic, which is why they can achieve things like immortality, telepathy ect. and it all through training in ninjistu

Originally posted by Battlehammer
You mean batmans trainer? Of so did he not get beaten by both batman and night wing in a sword fight?

also if it who I think it is, he would not touch Ogun.

no. the rai i'm talking about is from valiant comics, and easily the most skilled swordsman in that company.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
Wrong actaully it consider ninjistu magic, which is why they can achieve things like immortality, telepathy ect. and it all through training in ninjistu

chi, ki, life-energy and all that conceptual stuff exists outside of ninjitsu, as well. and if it's specifically a "ninjitsu magic," then it qualifies as an outside influence, so it's not just learning a physical skill, it's dabbling into the superhuman to become superhuman.

Originally posted by Disappear
chi, ki, life-energy and all that conceptual stuff exists outside of ninjitsu, as well. and if it's specifically a "ninjitsu magic," then it qualifies as an outside influence, so it's not just learning a physical skill, it's dabbling into the superhuman to become superhuman.

Its not an outside influence because its gained via meditation/concentration which means you are using your own ability to gain power not something external and that also makes it natural. This seems a point that you dont seem to get.

Originally posted by Galan007
no. the rai i'm talking about is from valiant comics, and easily the most skilled swordsman in that company.

I know about him. I'm not an expert or anything but I know who he is.

Sorry about how long I took to post these, but I just got home today, so let me post them now. One thing before I start; Ogun is really more of a martial artist than a swordsman, and he has only had a few fights to begin with. Because of this, Ogun doesn't really have many pure sword fights, but I'll post the ones that come closest to it here:

This is his first on panel fight with Wolverine, in it he completely dominates him, forcing him to flee. I did not include the rest of the fight, because he drops the sword, and switches to a gun, and sais for the rest of it:

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/3927/kittyprydeandwolverine0.jpg
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/300/kittyprydeandwolverine0t.jpg

In this battle, Ogun takes on several ninjas (yeah, I know, but read 1st paragraph) and their master, the Japanese crimelord Hana. Shows good skill, uses immortality to secure win, see bottom for explanation:

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/923/wolverinev1ch1690203.jpg
http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/2669/wolverinev1ch16904.jpg
http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/1416/wolverinev1ch16905.jpg
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/9548/wolverinev1ch16906.jpg

In this fight, Ogun faces both Wolverine and Ghost Rider. He doesn't win the fight, but that's because he wasn't trying to - he tells Wolverine that it is his destiny to slay Ogun again and again. Regardless, he shows several good skill feats:

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/611/wolverinev1ch08911.jpg
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/7148/wolverinev1ch08912.jpg
http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/6872/wolverinev1ch08913.jpg
http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/2600/wolverinev1ch08914.jpg
http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/4971/wolverinev1ch08917.jpg
http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/9247/wolverinev1ch08918.jpg

One more thing that must be kept in mind about Ogun: He considers himself so superior to everybody else, that he never takes a fight seriously. This leads to him dropping his sword and taking his opponents to the gut, laughing while in the middle of a fight, and fighting Wolverine with the express purpose of losing to him.

While this point wouldn't help him in a versus match, as CIS is on in those, this thread is about the most skilled swordsman. Whether you consider fights to be the superior proof of skill, or technical showings, either way, it is the swordsman's skill that is being compared in this thread, not how a fight between the nominees would turn out.

Finally, to defend my comment that Ogun's powers come from his martial arts training. While Ogun may be a sorcerer, he is a ninja sorcerer, one who gained his powers through his mastery of ninjutsu. As evidence, here is Wolverine explaining his abilities to Kitty, in Kitty Pryde & Wolverine issue 4:

So anyways, sorry once again for the delayed post, I finished it as soon as I was able. If you need more evidence, well, there's not much more out there, so good luck, and let me know if you find any. This is all I've got for now.

Originally posted by Ize19
Sorry about how long I took to post these, but I just got home today, so let me post them now. One thing before I start; Ogun is really more of a martial artist than a swordsman, and he has only had a few fights to begin with. Because of this, Ogun doesn't really have many pure sword fights, but I'll post the ones that come closest to it here:

This is his first on panel fight with Wolverine, in it he completely dominates him, forcing him to flee. I did not include the rest of the fight, because he drops the sword, and switches to a gun, and sais for the rest of it:

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/3927/kittyprydeandwolverine0.jpg
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/300/kittyprydeandwolverine0t.jpg

In this battle, Ogun takes on several ninjas (yeah, I know, but read 1st paragraph) and their master, the Japanese crimelord Hana. Shows good skill, uses immortality to secure win, see bottom for explanation:

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/923/wolverinev1ch1690203.jpg
http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/2669/wolverinev1ch16904.jpg
http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/1416/wolverinev1ch16905.jpg
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/9548/wolverinev1ch16906.jpg

In this fight, Ogun faces both Wolverine and Ghost Rider. He doesn't win the fight, but that's because he wasn't trying to - he tells Wolverine that it is his destiny to slay Ogun again and again. Regardless, he shows several good skill feats:

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/611/wolverinev1ch08911.jpg
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/7148/wolverinev1ch08912.jpg
http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/6872/wolverinev1ch08913.jpg
http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/2600/wolverinev1ch08914.jpg
http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/4971/wolverinev1ch08917.jpg
http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/9247/wolverinev1ch08918.jpg

One more thing that must be kept in mind about Ogun: He considers himself so superior to everybody else, that he never takes a fight seriously. This leads to him dropping his sword and taking his opponents to the gut, laughing while in the middle of a fight, and fighting Wolverine with the express purpose of losing to him.

I still doesnt prove hes better than Drac. However there isnt enough evidence to prove Drac is better than Ogun. Unfortunately I dont have acces to scans for Drac vs Blade. Theres evidence that suggests that Drac could do similar stuff but Oguns showings show that he could probably tool Black Knight as well.

Originally posted by Ize19

While this point wouldn't help him in a versus match, as CIS is on in those, this thread is about the most skilled swordsman. Whether you consider fights to be the superior proof of skill, or technical showings, either way, it is the swordsman's skill that is being compared in this thread, not how a fight between the nominees would turn out.

and as stated to you earlier on the thread. Techinical showings are useless without having fights to back it up. A sword was invented to kill if you cant kill anybody what sort of a swordsman are you?

As I stated earlier on if we wanted to prove that Wolverine was a great martial artist you could post a scan of him dancing but obvoulsy that would be absurd to take that over fights.

Originally posted by Ize19

Finally, to defend my comment that Ogun's powers come from his martial arts training. While Ogun may be a sorcerer, he is a ninja sorcerer, one who gained his powers through his mastery of ninjutsu. As evidence, here is Wolverine explaining his abilities to Kitty, in Kitty Pryde & Wolverine issue 4:

The thing is in the scans you posted above GR and Wolverine made a disintcion between martial arts and sorcery.

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/6872/wolverinev1ch08913.jpg

your above scan does not specify wether he learnt that from ninjutsu or magic. Either way it doesnt matter.

Originally posted by Ize19

So anyways, sorry once again for the delayed post, I finished it as soon as I was able. If you need more evidence, well, there's not much more out there, so good luck, and let me know if you find any. This is all I've got for now.

Sorry probably not the response you wanted from me.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I still doesnt prove hes better than Drac. However there isnt enough evidence to prove Drac is better than Ogun. Unfortunately I dont have acces to scans for Drac vs Blade. Theres evidence that suggests that Drac could do similar stuff but Oguns showings show that he could probably tool Black Knight as well.

Thanks for the admission.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
and as stated to you earlier on the thread. Techinical showings are useless without having fights to back it up. A sword was invented to kill if you cant kill anybody what sort of a swordsman are you?

As I stated earlier on if we wanted to prove that Wolverine was a great martial artist you could post a scan of him dancing but obvoulsy that would be absurd to take that over fights.

Well, now that there are fights to back it up, do my first scans have relevance? The way I see it, his technical skills, and his abilities in a fight, back each other up.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
The thing is in the scans you posted above GR and Wolverine made a disintcion between martial arts and sorcery.

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/6872/wolverinev1ch08913.jpg

your above scan does not specify wether he learnt that from ninjutsu or magic. Either way it doesnt matter.

Notice the third word bubble: "This process [magic/psy powers] is forbidden knowledge. Only the most gifted--or cursed-- of ninja (emphasis NOT mine) masters were reputed capable of such things, and that only in legend."

S

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Sorry probably not the response you wanted from me.

Not at all. This is a fun debate we're having, and I'm enjoying it immensely.

Originally posted by Ize19
Thanks for the admission.

Well, now that there are fights to back it up, do my first scans have relevance? The way I see it, his technical skills, and his abilities in a fight, back each other up.

Notice the third word bubble: "This process [magic/psy powers] is forbidden knowledge. Only the most gifted--or cursed-- of ninja (emphasis NOT mine) masters were reputed capable of such things, and that only in legend."

S

Not at all. This is a fun debate we're having, and I'm enjoying it immensely.

I think at this stage I may give it to Ogun, but I still dont think its a foregone conclusion. I might write a more detailed post later.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Its not an outside influence because its gained via meditation/concentration which means you are using your own ability to gain power not something external and that also makes it natural. This seems a point that you dont seem to get.

according to the good doctor strange, some years back when he had his own series, there are three kinds of magic. there's the magic accomplished by your own power, the magic used energy drawn from the earth/dimension, and the magic that involves invoking extra-dimensional beings. you say "magic," i assume all three. given that two of the three are from external sources, and that the magic displayed in comics is in the vast majority from those latter two... put it together.

Originally posted by Disappear
according to the good doctor strange, some years back when he had his own series, there are three kinds of magic. there's the magic accomplished by your own power, the magic used energy drawn from the earth/dimension, and the magic that involves invoking extra-dimensional beings. you say "magic," i assume all three. given that two of the three are from external sources, and that the magic displayed in comics is in the vast majority from those latter two... put it together.

That still doesnt change the fact that you can use magic to give you powers without using external sources. Therefore part of magic is still natural and you can use it to give you superhuman powers.

You said that you cant use magic to make you superhuman naturally...incorrect. The sort of powers were are talking about are telepathy, astral projection etc. That part of magic is actually developing psionic ability and many humans have done it. Moondragon, Mantis, Baron Mordo etc etc. Hell theres even a guy from DC who used meditation to learn magic (telekinesis).

Yes humans can become superhuman naturally I dont need to put anything together.

but if humans have done it naturally, being humans and without external power, how is it "superhuman"? they're not changing, evolving or invoking external help. they're still human. they're just humans with powers. so either they're superhuman and the magic isn't natural, or the magic is natural and their powers aren't outside of the "human" spectrum.

edit.