Ultimecia vs Kain

Pretty much all of them as far as I am concerned, theres only a couple hes actually lost thats for sure. Hes won fights when the forum was fairly young and there were more people who knew about LoK and hes won those with me backing him against Dante, Kratos, Sephiroth, evil pig, imo Demitri,Jedah and Pyron although their actually still arguable and many more obscure less mainstream characters.

He just cant fight robots too well.

Although I think your trying to bait and pick a fight, please just debate or leave the thread.

Hm....
Well, he hasnt won any since I've been on.

Tack this one onto his loss list, then.

I still have arguments for it, so if the idea that Kain loses just because yo uthink so your very much mistaken and its no wonder he has no "wins" from your point of view.

He loses because he is weaker than his opponents. Check your grammar.

Which is your opinion, just like how you think Link wins in the Kratos thread without argument, forgive me for saying but I dont think your opinion is held in high regard.

I never check my grammar, its not important to me, I usually have arguments to make you see.

It doesnt matter. What is right, is right. What is fact, is fact, and a full powered HoT Link never losing is both. Just like Ultimecia winning this one is.

Your kind of fact seems to be a very poor defintion of the word it would seem.....well banter all you like, i want to debate so Ill w8 until there is an argument in here.

Well, if you have proof that something I say isnt true, you feel free to debunk. On this particular matchup, Im merely choosing sides, but when it comes to my specialty, I'll be sure to give you a sound argument.

Well you dont have an argument do you at the moment so there is nothing to debunk, saying Kain loses because Ultimecia is too strong is not really an argument. its been debated for a while and it turns out most of utlimecia's actual power is potential, not actual direct power and her better skills take a fair time to get up and running e.g. the mind power that allows her to make imaginary monsters.

Also this matchup does not state what form of ultimecia, does she start in time compressing form in which case what powers does it have? and can it do all the things Ultimecia can do in her more humanoid form?

Well, I know some of Kain's abilities, and they are pretty weak in comparison to other chars. I just dont find him to be any challenge for an above average fighter.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Arguable if they were actually stars the way your refering to them or if their stars at all tbh, does it say they are or did they just look like them? furthermore shes taking things from time and space, its unkown if shes conciously taking targets or not, she could simply use the power of time compression and it starts with taking the largest objects first or stars first, you cant assume Kain will for some reason be suddenly sucked in. Theres a lot of assumptions made with this, for example why is her immediate environment not sucked in?

So? as i said, it may not work like a vaccume.

Which coud take a long time for all I know, assuming this form and if she starts in it, I would like to see her start time compression, it still did not affect her environment and the above arguments still stand.

Weve seen that already, not imrpessive at all in any sense of the word...

So they have no feats against psychic powers? and you are definite and can display that it was through mental force and not a spell or PIS event that lead to the possession/control of them?

False, having stronger mental abilities is worthless if you have no ability to defend. Kain can take souls, freeze opponents in time and use TK but that does not mean he can stop othes from doing these things to him. Just like Kratos having the ability to throw lightning, use the gorgon head etc does not mean he is immune to being turned to stone or being hit by lightning.

2. It sure as hell worked fast enough to absorb at the very least the planet they were on in no time at all...

3. The start of the thread stated Time Compressed Ultimecia. So yeah, she starts in it. And, um, yeah, it did affect her environment. As in it absorbed all of it.

4. Not impressive? It shows better reaction-time than Kain has ever shown. And can you prove Kain has more piercing power than an armor piercing bullet?

5. It was obviously through magic considering that forms the basis of her powers...But it was not a magic spell, not that you can prove anyway. As for PIS event, nope, just her abilities. She sent her conciousness back in time to take over their minds.

6. Taking souls is just that, the ability to take souls. A very specific term. Same with freezing in time. And no, if your TK abilities are above that of your opponent, obviously they will have a harder time TKing you. Mental abilities is a general term, encompassing a broad range of specific abilties. Ultimecia has shown more and better feats of mental abilities, she can tangle Kain's mind like a ball of yarn, because she has feats that put her mental abilities at a far greater level than his. Shit, show me an instance where someone with greater mental abilities than his opponent was mentally defeated by their opponent in some way. Humor me.

Originally posted by NemeBro
1. You seem to not know what an assumption is. You are making the assumptions that she may take the largest objects first and other assorted nonsense. Prove any of that. Her immediate...environment? Um, lul? When she enters her Time Compressed form, all that surrounds you and her is nothingness.

2. It sure as hell worked fast enough to absorb at the very least the planet they were on in no time at all...

3. The start of the thread stated Time Compressed Ultimecia. So yeah, she starts in it. And, um, yeah, it did affect her environment. As in it absorbed all of it.

4. Not impressive? It shows better reaction-time than Kain has ever shown. And can you prove Kain has more piercing power than an armor piercing bullet?

5. It was obviously through magic considering that forms the basis of her powers...But it was not a magic spell, not that you can prove anyway. As for PIS event, nope, just her abilities. She sent her conciousness back in time to take over their minds.

6. Taking souls is just that, the ability to take souls. A very specific term. Same with freezing in time. And no, if your TK abilities are above that of your opponent, obviously they will have a harder time TKing you. Mental abilities is a general term, encompassing a broad range of specific abilties. Ultimecia has shown more and better feats of mental abilities, she can tangle Kain's mind like a ball of yarn, because she has feats that put her mental abilities at a far greater level than his. Shit, show me an instance where someone with greater mental abilities than his opponent was mentally defeated by their opponent in some way. Humor me.

1. ofcourse i do, you seem to be assuming their stars, I am not going to make that assumption so you show me that they are actually stars. When she enters it? so its not her default form then, Kain will kill her before she can even start compressing time. Also you still did not answer other questions, she may not be conciously taking everything she wants, nor may it be a vaccume, unless you can prove it.

2. Show me this....

3. Yet nobody was absorbed, also show me. And me and Spade had a debate on how long it took her to compress, he stated it does not take her long to get into the form itself but it does take al ong time to compress time....so...where does it state she starts off in the time compressing form?

4. First Kain is not going to be hitting a shield, he will be behind her slicing her in two down the back, second Kains piercing power is not the most improtant thing here, although 30 tonnes+ from a large sword is beyond a bullet. What will really kill her is her soul being torn out.

5. Can you prove any of this? and I dont have to prove anything your the one making the claim that she can do it this way, you will need to prove speed, timing etc. Apprently she used some sort of machine? that what I have read, theres definaltey a machine involved.

6. No, your making no logical sense. Mind powers are very specific, you either have the ability to defend or you do not, their two diffrent attributes defence and assault you understand? TK? how is having a higher TK any defence for you? you cant swat TK out of the air and you cannot necesserily push it either...

I dont have to show other characters, you need to show Ultimecia with mental defences or drop the argument, by the looks of things shes got into the minds of some what? mentally defenceless girls and has taken thoughts and made them reality or something? first thats not great mind control, nor is it defence.

Originally posted by LLLLLink
Well, I know some of Kain's abilities, and they are pretty weak in comparison to other chars. I just dont find him to be any challenge for an above average fighter.

Humour me, name me some of "kains" abilities and why they are pretty weak against average fighters, sounds like a Blunder 4 part 1 to me...

Kain lost 50% of the threads he was in a most of the so called victories remained inconclusive.

the only cleared ones was Sephiroth, Cloud, and Link I think

Originally posted by Phanteros
Kain lost 50% of the threads he was in a most of the so called victories remained inconclusive.

the only cleared ones was Sephiroth, Cloud, and Link I think

Hes not lost any threads in games vs, since I dont remember coneding to any, I still had many arguments for Kain in any thread. Theres either threads Kain has outright won, or threads that are as you say, inconclusive which is where my opponents disapear.

Edea and Rinoa do have telepathy as well btw, becuase if ultimacia has it they do too, seeing as how they have the exact (literally) same powerset as Ultimecia except for when she goes uber Time-wizard at the end of the game (or maybe they actually still have that power mmm), so yeah, they can resist mind-rape. It should logically only be becuase of skill and sheer force of will that she took over their minds, which is a damn good feat considering Rinoa survived the practical Apocalypse through will-power alone.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Edea and Rinoa do have telepathy as well btw, becuase if ultimacia has it they do too, seeing as how they have the exact (literally) same powerset as Ultimecia except for when she goes uber Time-wizard at the end of the game (or maybe they actually still have that power mmm), so yeah, they can resist mind-rape. It should logically only be becuase of skill and sheer force of will that she took over their minds, which is a damn good feat considering Rinoa survived the practical Apocalypse through will-power alone.

Or they merely had the power of mental attack, not defence, this supports my ideas even more so if they have the same mental power as her according to you....

Therefore, she only won probably because like herself, they have zero defences of the mind. Unlike Kain.

Also I thought she combined all the powers of all the sorceresses into herself, i thought thats what caused her to become so powerful?

It's impossible for someone to have telepathy and not be able to defend against telepathy. It would be like me having arms, but only being able to punch and never block; nonsensical.

Not really, that makes no sesne at all because arms are physical objects, you can react to them, touch them, see them. With a psychic attack you dont necesserily know when your opponent is going to attack and it takes a diffrent ability/technique entirely to defend. For example if you were a martial artist and you knew only offensive techniques, you dont automatically know all the defensive ones as well just because you have learnt the offensive.

Just because I can fire a machine gun does not mean I can defend myself against one, or become immune to its shots....

hell did these sorcresses even try to stop Ultemecia from taking over their minds, if they did not even attempt a defence then that atuomatically resolves the issue that they probably had no idea of it happening before it was too late and so could not stop ultemecia due to lack of defence.

Your analogy is faulty becuase a machine gun is not an actual part of your body like telepathy is. Telepathy is almost literally (though of course different in specifics) a mental limb, allowing one to feel and manipulate minds. For all intents and purposes telepathy is a punch in that its still attached and can still be moved around. Otherwise it would be like a (as you suggest) a gun, but one where you can't see where your firing. Haven't you ever seen telepaths in the media sense someone behind their back. How could they do this if it was just a gunshot that you fire in specific directions.

Lastly, telepathy is used to directly mould the mind as the telepath see's fit. This requires the active ability to feel, to sense and to touch the other mind, rather than just firing an instant mind-hump blast. To stick with my analogy, Ultimacia taking over their minds would be a metaphorical headlock, she can move them around, but they can still fight back, becuase they still have control of their limbs, shes just moving them.

I think I'm right in this, and I don't know how to make it any clearer than this.

edit: and to answer your question I believe Rinoa was fighting back against Ultimecias control, as when she took over her body it was seriously spazing out and moving as if it had something really trying to hold it back. Nothing like the total control she imediately had over Adel, who's mind was dead I believe.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Your analogy is faulty becuase a machine gun is not an actual part of your body like telepathy is. Telepathy is almost literally (though of course different in specifics) a mental limb, allowing one to feel and manipulate minds. For all intents and purposes telepathy is a punch in that its still attached and can still be moved around. Otherwise it would be like a (as you suggest) a gun, but one where you can't see where your firing. Haven't you ever seen telepaths in the media sense someone behind their back. How could they do this if it was just a gunshot that you fire in specific directions.

Lastly, telepathy is used to directly mould the mind as the telepath see's fit. This requires the active ability to feel, to sense and to touch the other mind, rather than just firing an instant mind-hump blast. To stick with my analogy, Ultimacia taking over their minds would be a metaphorical headlock, she can move them around, but they can still fight back, becuase they still have control of their limbs, shes just moving them.

I think I'm right in this, and I don't know how to make it any clearer than this.

Telepathy is just a mental link, i.e speaking to others, its nothing to do with attacking and it seems to me your keeping some things from me, I have been reading this:

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Ultimecia

and utilized her ability to possess other sorceresses

She charmed him, and made the effort to gain control over him by offering him her assistance in saving him from the "predicament" he now found himself in

This one above makes me wonder if She can possess anyone other than Sorceresses considering she had to make an effort to gain control, if hse could just take his mind why wouldnt she?

telekinetically attacked Rinoa, beating her senseless

From this I have found out that first, before she can even use the power of time compression she had to send her mind through a machine both in the past, present and future. She had to possess Enoli or however you spell it who was a sorceress AND then, enoli actually defeated her possession long enough to stop her from using the full compression anyway. Whats more....they claim it as possession throughout this piece of information meaning it may not be mind control at all, considering she is only noted for telepathy, and her TK was said to be used just to beat up someone.....hardly impressive...

Ellone's unique power to send the consciousnesses of others into different time periods had been used and copied by the Dr. Odine of the future to create the Junction Machine named Ellone. Ultimecia was using the future Junction Machine as a means to reach back to Squall and Edea's time. However, the Junction Machine could only send a mind so far into the past. Ultimecia needed the real Ellone in order to go even farther into the past, so that her consciousness would exist in the past, present, and future. With this accomplished, she would be able to cast the spell that would commence Time Compression.

I feel lied to, since you said that all sorceresses previously passed their powers on? perhaps you misunderstood (evident from this information) and the truth is that they sent their power not powers to the next sorceress.

NOt only does utlemecia need this eloni or w/e she is, but she needs the machine to send about her conciousness and eloni can fight Ultimecias spell anyway...

Also it seems to me your confusing her possession of sorcesses (not sure if she did it to anyone else) with telepathy, which she used to sense various things which makes sense because telepathy is not used usually to control any mind at all. her telepathy is however at a high enough level in her final most powerful form to pluck things from it and give htem life.

But as youve shown, they take a fair amount of time to rise up and fight, far too long.

So in conclusion telepathy is nothing to do with mind control and her possesion is based on a machine, which she does not have in this fight. The machine being integral to all her main powers and her time compression as well....

Ultimecia had to use the machine as a bridge to facilitate her own mental time traveling