Originally posted by Dolos
Imagine what a technocrat that is superior to the entire human race would do to solve the problems of the human-robotic Utopian civilization in furthering its powers and technologies and intelligence.
but that doesn't exist, and appealing to some potential future being is not particularly pragmatic, which is one of the defining qualities of technocracy (with either a capital "T" or not). Yes, I agree, a being that is defined by perfection would know better than human would. You are missing the point of the argument though, nobody is talking about this end point, but rather how you seem to hand wave the process in getting there as if the reality of geo-politics has no baring on it.
Originally posted by Dolos
Oliver, if one wished to solve all the problems of an entire government, such as the problem you just asked me a solution for, than that individual's best bet would be to offer a way to take every individual effected by said problem, out of the equation. How do you take away billions of people from the conflicts of their governments without intervening in governmental affairs? Provide access to a Utopia that can sustain an unlimited population without any struggle for resources.You will find that not only all the people effected by the Israeli-Muslim Conflict will leave for a better world, but the people raging the conflict will follow in turn, forgetting about their petty differences and leaving it behind them.
it was only within the past 5 years that Israel allowed shipments of concrete into the Gaza strip. Access into and out of Palestine, on a temporary basis, is controlled by the Israelis.
The option of "just leaving" doesn't exist for the Palestinians, and further, they don't want to leave, you know, given the whole religious significance of the area. For instance, Jewish settlers are willing to break their own law, face direct attack from both the Israeli military and Hamas or associated groups, and live without the basic amenities of water and electricity, just to claim small pieces of what they think is the "Holy Land". How could whatever Utopia you have to offer change these people's minds? This is the type of mentality that exists on both sides of the Arab-Israeli conflict.
Originally posted by Dolos
I only said the cities would most likely be built in the ocean because, unlike the continents we occupy, the ocean has no governmental-territorial establishment. Neither does space. Utopias could be on the moon. The new technocratic nation will be built elsewhere, that is, if the current nations don't just become technocracies themselves.
space would be far more problematic.
Without getting really specific into the math, with modern technology, the space required to hold the requisite hydroponic farms, power them, and house the people who live there would increase exponentially. You are looking at, really, decades of dedicated research even to make such cities a possibility on a theoretical level. You are suggesting providing power for people to be scientists and do things that aren't just feeding and powering the city, in any reasonable analysis, what you are talking about is indistinguishable from magic in any pragmatic sense.
the moon? the moon? it would be hundreds of times more difficult to accomplish this on the moon.
The stubbornness of other nations will effect one or two nations from becoming technocracies, which may in turn slow down the progress of information technologies, in inventing machines capable of building self-sustaining cities, eventually a Type I civilization with limitless energy and resources. Other nations did cause a decline in American techno-political progress since the 1960s, USs Golden Age (See MIB3), but this is all too big to just sit back in bicker or theorize about. Of course for the technology that can solve a greater array of problems, we need to rely more on politics at the moment. Touche, white flag, concession, et cetra.
That said, even when these cities or this civilization, this miracle of technology and science, this Elysium is built, there's no grantee every human will flock to it. Vanity, stubbornness, ignorance, these will inhabit the 'holy land', this small part of a pale blue dot, isolated from the descended, transcended, superior and sophisticated civilizations of tomorrow.
Or maybe some jihaadist organization that makes Al Queda look like a joke will get North Korea to give them lots of nukes and bang bang communist alliances battling the UN will destroy humanity. I do believe that in the infinite systems in the trillions of galaxies, there has been evolution of life forms, there has been the emergence of intelligence and other civilizations and technologies in those instances where they evolved under similar conditions to us, and I believe most of them annihilated each other. The odds would be against us, as well. However, I believe the few that make it, are the few that evolve into eternity and infinity.
but like, you get it is more than just one nation being ahead of another? These advances in technology, even with the best intentions, tend to exacerbate the inequalities between the rich and poor in the world. I think that is almost my specific point, I think I said it before, the best we can hope for is the singularity is invented and 6 billion people wake up to absolutely no change in their life.
Like, I think you may have taken a wrong impression from me. I'm very much interested in technocracy and technology as answers to real world issues, in fact, my views on anarchy require a society that uses modern technology to reduce scarcity in certain resources. I just feel it should be more about trying to get investment into sky scraper farms that can feed heavy density urban environments at incredibly low upkeep with modern farming robotics, etc, than it should be about imagining some magic future. Utopia is impossible in our lifetimes, unfortunately. We are fighting 10000 years of culture and at least a million years of evolution, there aren't going to be leaps and bounds.
Originally posted by Oliver North
Utopia is impossible in our lifetimes, unfortunately. We are fighting 10000 years of culture and at least a million years of evolution, there aren't going to be leaps and bounds.
You believe this because you believe that first we should have a few technocracies to reinvent culture, and make the world an even middle class community, that that last step will somehow take the longest of anything else? A money free economy is very plausible, a resource based economy, a technocracy, is definitely the first step. I just believe that America at least would provide the technologies to prevent aging, cure mortality, and reverse aging to everyone when it emerges...or at least to maximum practicality, I don't think they will put a price on medicine. They may put a price on other things, however microprocessors will become nano-processors, and they will become femto or quantum processors, and I see lots of possibilities in space exploration and these 'pragmatic techno-solutions' you speak of, in leaps and bounds, from a sudden emergence of AI, it that happens...
This article is relevant to the current discussion:
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Laws of physics.
Originally posted by Oliver North
but like, you get it is more than just one nation being ahead of another? These advances in technology, even with the best intentions, tend to exacerbate the inequalities between the rich and poor in the world. I think that is almost my specific point, I think I said it before, the best we can hope for is the singularity is invented and 6 billion people wake up to absolutely no change in their life.
this sums it up.
materially impossible, geopolitically unfeasible. we're all talking in circles again.
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Laws of physics.
There is no upper limit to the potentials of technological innovations - well within the laws of physics. You will find anything is possible within the laws of physics, given ample sophistication. Techno-magic is really just supremely perplex technology and science in human perspective.
@Oliver, touche. Now that I think about it, I'm reminded of the conundrum that is human err, the various things that make our possibility to overcome radicalism-invoked Armageddon very unlikely.
Originally posted by Omega Vision
This article is relevant to the current discussion:
In my mind death is supremely undesirable. I don't care about evolution of intelligence, so much as I care about surviving it. I would be more than willing to transfer my essence into tech, but if it finds me evil, and rejects my influence, I could give two shits about the whole thing. I will go into a state of wishful Christianity upon being erased by the machines. Grasping to illogical religious desires for comfort and acceptance of the inevitable end of my life.
Originally posted by 753
materially impossible, geopolitically unfeasible.
There's always a probability where one comes out on top. There are infinite probabilities. Creating the probability requires an intellect of pure ambition, relentlessness, an ingenious and uncompromising pertinacity - undergoing constant changes, progress, and epiphanies. The will of stars and the patience of stone. And in the end, one that could be defeated and still believe that in trying, he was neither right nor wrong, nothing ends, it's all a matter of perspective.
Originally posted by Dolos
There is no upper limit to the potentials of technological innovations - well within the laws of physics. You will find anything is possible within the laws of physics, given ample sophistication. Techno-magic is really just supremely perplex technology and science in human perspective.@Oliver, touche. Now that I think about it, I'm reminded of the conundrum that is human err, the various things that make our possibility to overcome radicalism-invoked Armageddon very unlikely.
In my mind death is supremely undesirable. I don't care about evolution of intelligence, so much as I care about surviving it. I would be more than willing to transfer my essence into tech, but if it finds me evil, and rejects my influence, I could give two shits about the whole thing. I will go into a state of wishful Christianity upon being erased by the machines. Grasping to illogical religious desires for comfort and acceptance of the inevitable end of my life.
Originally posted by DolosI literally couldn't understand the message of this post, but I found "the will of stars and the patience of stone" bit quite poetic.
There's always a probability where one comes out on top. There are infinite probabilities. Creating the probability requires an intellect of pure ambition, relentlessness, an ingenious and uncompromising pertinacity - undergoing constant changes, progress, and epiphanies. The will of stars and the patience of stone. And in the end, one that could be defeated and still believe that in trying, he was neither right nor wrong, nothing ends, it's all a matter of perspective.
Edit: thinking about it, your expression style might be well/better suited for poetry, actually.
Originally posted by 753
I literally couldn't understand the message of this post, but I found "the will of stars and the patience of stone" bit quite poetic.Edit: thinking about it, your expression style might be well/better suited for poetry, actually.