Goku>>Speed of light.
The thing that is stupid on this forum is that as a kid goku was blocking multiple of machine gun fire with his pole. That feat alone puts him above the speed of sound, far above it.
NOw we have a goku that fought raditz possessing a speed far greater than that goku that knocked machine gun bullets out of the air by multiple of shooters like it was nothing.
Its stupid to say that raditz is just the speed of sound when you have teen goku performing feats far above the speed of sound with ease.
Hell, goku as a child fought a clay version of himself made by popo and out ran a kamehamaha blast.
Endless Mike knows nothing of DBZ characters. He dont want them to be on a certain level so that they wouldnt be able to beat his favorites when his favorites doesnt even have the feats of proving that they can even FIGHT at speeds even equal or close to people in even NAPPA area.
Light speed, I agree, goku cant FLY that fast, now reflexes and short burst, there speed is far above the speed of light.
Yeh I agree. Flying speed the top tier are relatavistic at most but in terms of reaction speed, looking at how Master Roshi destroyed the moon in seconds and vegeta's final flash disapated thousands of miles from earths atmosphere puts their blasts at light speed, and character can react to said blasts.
Originally posted by Peterlane
Yeh I agree. Flying speed the top tier are relatavistic at most but in terms of reaction speed, looking at how Master Roshi destroyed the moon in seconds and vegeta's final flash disapated thousands of miles from earths atmosphere puts their blasts at light speed, and character can react to said blasts.
Yep, hell, picollo shot destroyed the moon with a blast in less than a second and with that same blast, goku, vegeta, etc... has dodged it. Lets not even bring up the fact that frieza shot numerous of blast at goku and goku slapped them out of the air with ease. Hell, frieza shot his matter destroying blast numerous of times from his finger tips at goku and goku winked through all of them like it was nothing.
Lets not forget that goku vs Frieza fight was only 5 minutes and they made like 10 comics out of it that included them punching, talking at super speed, etc....
Light speed aint sh** to even krillin.
Originally posted by carver9
Endless Mike knows nothing of DBZ characters. He dont want them to be on a certain level so that they wouldnt be able to beat his favorites when his favorites doesnt even have the feats of proving that they can even FIGHT at speeds even equal or close to people in even NAPPA area.
I think maybe you and Mike should just meet up in person to settle this little grudge match, with a good old fashioned fist fight. You can finally show what happens to those who dare to go against the Church of goku.
As for this fight. Vegetto wins I guess. My recollection of the third Tenchi OVA is vague (mostly due to playing the drinking game: drink every time you find Ryoko's new dub voice annoying)
However users of the lighthawk wings have shown feats way, way about and DBZ character, Zinv for example.
I'll wait for someone with better knowledge about the Tenchi verse to weigh in. Considering on comic book versus Z was put in as Transcendent level there's probably something I'm missing about him.
Also this is the entire 5 minute frieza battle condensed into five minutes. Strange... I can still follow the movements. I must have faster than light reflexes.
Originally posted by Galvaclaw
I think maybe you and Mike should just meet up in person to settle this little grudge match, with a good old fashioned fist fight. You can finally show what happens to those who dare to go against the Church of goku.As for this fight. Vegetto wins I guess. My recollection of the third Tenchi OVA is vague (mostly due to playing the drinking game: drink every time you find Ryoko's new dub voice annoying)
However users of the lighthawk wings have shown feats way, way about and DBZ character, Zinv for example.
I'll wait for someone with better knowledge about the Tenchi verse to weigh in. Considering on comic book versus Z was put in as Transcendent level there's probably something I'm missing about him.
Also this is the entire 5 minute frieza battle condensed into five minutes. Strange... I can still follow the movements. I must have faster than light reflexes.
You can still follow the Flash on JLU and he goes FTL in the show. That is a STUPID analogy
Originally posted by carver9
Yep, hell, picollo shot destroyed the moon with a blast in less than a second and with that same blast, goku, vegeta, etc... has dodged it. Lets not even bring up the fact that frieza shot numerous of blast at goku and goku slapped them out of the air with ease. Hell, frieza shot his matter destroying blast numerous of times from his finger tips at goku and goku winked through all of them like it was nothing.Lets not forget that goku vs Frieza fight was only 5 minutes and they made like 10 comics out of it that included them punching, talking at super speed, etc....
Light speed aint sh** to even krillin.
LOL@ Super speed speech. Exactly how do you even accomplish that?
GOKU IS OMFG 10000000000000000000s of times faster than light. Hush fanboy. SSJ Gotenks (who is stronger than Goku) took a minute to get to Buu's house and he was trying to get there as fast as he could, meaning that even if it was the other side of the world, his max speed would be about Mach 1000, or less than a 900th of lightspeed. Even Super Buu with Gohan absorbed wasn't able to reach Goku and Vegeto before they fused. They're very fast, but they aren't lightspeed.
Originally posted by Peterlane
You can still follow the Flash on JLU and he goes FTL in the show. That is a STUPID analogy
I don't recall him going FTL in the show, exactly what episodes did he do this?
Originally posted by Peterlane
You can still follow the Flash on JLU and he goes FTL in the show. That is a STUPID analogy
When did Flash ever go faster than light in JLU? Based of how long Flash took to lap the world each time he wasn't even going Lightspeed.
Using five minutes took lots of episodes so they must be faster than light argument is ridiculous. Someone who has a thousand times human reflexes would experience 5 minutes as 83 hours or 224 episodes of Dragonball z. The fight took 8 episodes. So that clocks out at about 35 times human reflexes being generous because I'd be including a lot of non fight filler.
So 5 minutes equals loads of episodes does not mean they are above light speed.
Originally posted by Peterlane
Proof please
Tokimi (multiverse creator) was about to destroy him but Z mentioned that in order to do so she would have to use enough power to shatter the third dimension. She then backed down (considering she created Z's powers and trained him in their use, she knew he was right).
What does this have to do with the fight? Strawman
Since you're claiming that manipulating dimensions/opening dimensional portals is such an impressive feat.
Did you watch the new DB special written by Akira Toriyama? Goku teleported the whole Z-Club to his house, so does his house have ki?
GG Endless Mike
What the hell are you talking about? If you're referring to the one with Vegeta's brother, I don't recall that happening, and if it did, it directly contradicts the primary canon where he says he can only IT to ki signatures he detects.
It only became an alternate timeline because he killed Freiza instead of letting Goku do the work, so his world became a branch of the original wheras before it was the original. Kinda like how the Marvel verse works. Are you going to say marvel time-travelers and time machines can only travel to alternate timelines?
Wrong, the timeline was already disrupted when Cell arrived a year before that. Furthermore, his mere presence made the timeline alternate. He said that killing the androids in the main timeline would not affect his timeline. Marvel time travelers can travel to other timelines or they can alter the normal timeline. DBZ has never demonstrated the latter.
Only because he has a mind of an idiot. He can transmutate anything to his desire, and he loves candy. Z is more imaginative but it doesn't mean his is greater than Buu's
Yes it does, because he DEMONSTRATED GREATER FEATS WITH IT.
Furthermore, All of the Super Buu forms were relatively smart and never demonstrated any super amazing matter manipulation feats.
any way all matter manipulation does change the way Vegeto looks, he is still as strong and retains consciousness.
That only applied when he was turned into candy. What if he is turned into sludge, or harmless energy, or antimatter?
Most but not all.
So name a single TK feat that compares to the ones I listed.
I accept your concession
How did I concede anything? I'm crushing all of your arguments.
A full powered Kamehameha will do the trick.
No it won't. Light Hawk Wings mechanism are proof against brute force attacks, all attacks are "transformed into harmless energy" via Word of God. You need an attack great enough to shatter dimensions on a universal level to kill him with just 2 LHWs. He has 5 in his natural state so due to the LHW formula he is 8 times more powerful.
Yeah, no he didn't do that. Z didn't possess material conversion, which is why even though he had 2 more LHW than Tenchi, he still lost. So he blew the moon up, plain and simple. And a full powered blast from Vegito would have blown the whole moon up.
Material Conversion isn't just basic matter manipulation or erasure. It's the ability to turn any form of matter or energy into any other form of matter or energy. Effectively unlimited matter/energy manipulation. Z simply fired a spacial shockwave at the moon, and half of it just disappeared. Not exploded, [b]vanished.
Furthermore, judging his destructive ability by that one feat is retarded, since he was simply trying to get Tenchi's attention. He destroyed an entire fleet of GP ships across millions of kilometers, and wiped out thousands of Tokimi's devices that she sent to test him (which were completely immune to conventional weapons).
If you want to use powerscaling (which we have to, since otherwise Vegeto's feats by himself are not very good, the guy never destroyed anything larger than rock formation), we can say how the Kamidake II (which was a 2nd Gen Jurai Treeship - much weaker than Z) effortlessly destroyed a pirate spacecraft composed of multiple planets, including gas giant planets. That's a greater destructive feat than any canon DBZ character has.
Goku>>Speed of light.The thing that is stupid on this forum is that as a kid goku was blocking multiple of machine gun fire with his pole. That feat alone puts him above the speed of sound, far above it.
Well not that far, but okay.
NOw we have a goku that fought raditz possessing a speed far greater than that goku that knocked machine gun bullets out of the air by multiple of shooters like it was nothing.
Um, Raditz only caught one bullet.
Its stupid to say that raditz is just the speed of sound when you have teen goku performing feats far above the speed of sound with ease.
Raditz is maybe around 50 times the speed of sound, by my estimation.
Lightspeed is 871,490 times the speed of sound.
Hell, goku as a child fought a clay version of himself made by popo and out ran a kamehamaha blast.
Filler.
Endless Mike knows nothing of DBZ characters.
Which is why you constantly reference non-canon shit and I always have to correct you, right? 🙄
He dont want them to be on a certain level so that they wouldnt be able to beat his favorites when his favorites doesnt even have the feats of proving that they can even FIGHT at speeds even equal or close to people in even NAPPA area.
More like you want your favorite DBZ characters to be way stronger than they actually are.
Light speed, I agree, goku cant FLY that fast, now reflexes and short burst, there speed is far above the speed of light.
Prove it.
Goku tracked Yakon by air movements. If they were that fast then that would have been useless. Explain this.
Yeh I agree. Flying speed the top tier are relatavistic at most
Bullshit. It took Super Buu minutes to fly across the earth.
but in terms of reaction speed, looking at how Master Roshi destroyed the moon in seconds and vegeta's final flash disapated thousands of miles from earths atmosphere puts their blasts at light speed, and character can react to said blasts.
Relying on inconsistent feats. 99% of times ki blasts aren't anywhere near that fast. Normal humans can view them perfectly.
And when Goku Kamehamed their ship on the way to Namek, they got there way faster than they were scheduled for.
Filler
You can still follow the Flash on JLU and he goes FTL in the show. That is a STUPID analogy
He only went lightspeed once in that show, and you could only "follow" him because the camera was showing scenes across the world as he ran across it.
Let us recap why Z wins again:
Even though speed is equal (which makes this whole speed discussion irrelevant) Vegeto has nothing to hurt Z. In 101 Secrets Light Hawk Wings are described as "A Manifestation of God's Aura" that nullify all attacks by converting them to harmless energy.
Tenchi's Light Hawk Wings nullified a black hole, which does infinite damage (having infinite gravity and density). Yes, Tenchi was beyond the event horizon. Vegeto cannot do as much damage as a black hole.
Z sat in the middle of Tokimi and Tsunami's clash, which destroyed a large part of the galaxy.
This is many orders of magnitude greater than anything any canon DBZ character has ever done. Z was completely unharmed.
Tokimi (who created Z's powers and trained him in their use and knows everything about them, and is also a multiverse creator) backed down because killing Z with just 2 LHWs would required destroying the universe (in TM!verse lingo, each dimension is a universe, and the hyperdimension is a multiverse. The 3rd dimension is the one where earth is and where most of the story takes place)
Z can warp space with his shockwaves and cause matter to simply disappear from existence. He can rewrite matter and energy on a high level. His telekinesis is sufficient to destroy a powerful spaceship from millions of kilometers away and carve his name in giant letters on the earth while cutting through the earth's crust to expose magma.
He can travel through time, both forward and backwards.
He can hang out in other dimensions and spy or attack from there, where Vegeto cannot reach him.
He can travel to other universes.
He can teleport himself or others anywhere in the universe instantly.
He can survive just fine in space, while Vegeto would suffocate (don't argue that resisting transmutation means he can survive without oxygen, that's a complete non-sequiter)
Vegeto, or anyone else in DBZ for that matter, has no chance. None at all.
Anyone who thinks he does is either ignorant or a borderline retard.
Case closed.
DUN, DUN DUN! FINISH HIM!
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Tokimi (multiverse creator) was about to destroy him but Z mentioned that in order to do so she would have to use enough power to shatter the third dimension. She then backed down (considering she created Z's powers and trained him in their use, she knew he was right).Since you're claiming that manipulating dimensions/opening dimensional portals is such an impressive feat.
What the hell are you talking about? If you're referring to the one with Vegeta's brother, I don't recall that happening, and if it did, it directly contradicts the primary canon where he says he can only IT to ki signatures he detects.
Wrong, the timeline was already disrupted when Cell arrived a year before that. Furthermore, his mere presence made the timeline alternate. He said that killing the androids in the main timeline would not affect his timeline. Marvel time travelers can travel to other timelines or they can alter the normal timeline. DBZ has never demonstrated the latter.
Yes it does, because he DEMONSTRATED GREATER FEATS WITH IT.
Furthermore, All of the Super Buu forms were relatively smart and never demonstrated any super amazing matter manipulation feats.
That only applied when he was turned into candy. What if he is turned into sludge, or harmless energy, or antimatter?
So name a single TK feat that compares to the ones I listed.
How did I concede anything? I'm crushing all of your arguments.
No it won't. Light Hawk Wings mechanism are proof against brute force attacks, all attacks are "transformed into harmless energy" via Word of God. You need an attack great enough to shatter dimensions on a universal level to kill him with just 2 LHWs. He has 5 in his natural state so due to the LHW formula he is 8 times more powerful.
Material Conversion isn't just basic matter manipulation or erasure. It's the ability to turn any form of matter or energy into any other form of matter or energy. Effectively unlimited matter/energy manipulation. Z simply fired a spacial shockwave at the moon, and half of it just disappeared. Not exploded, [b]vanished.
Furthermore, judging his destructive ability by that one feat is retarded, since he was simply trying to get Tenchi's attention. He destroyed an entire fleet of GP ships across millions of kilometers, and wiped out thousands of Tokimi's devices that she sent to test him (which were completely immune to conventional weapons).
If you want to use powerscaling (which we have to, since otherwise Vegeto's feats by himself are not very good, the guy never destroyed anything larger than rock formation), we can say how the Kamidake II (which was a 2nd Gen Jurai Treeship - much weaker than Z) effortlessly destroyed a pirate spacecraft composed of multiple planets, including gas giant planets. That's a greater destructive feat than any canon DBZ character has.
Well not that far, but okay.
Um, Raditz only caught one bullet.
Raditz is maybe around 50 times the speed of sound, by my estimation.
Lightspeed is 871,490 times the speed of sound.
Filler.
Which is why you constantly reference non-canon shit and I always have to correct you, right? 🙄
More like you want your favorite DBZ characters to be way stronger than they actually are.
Prove it.
Goku tracked Yakon by air movements. If they were that fast then that would have been useless. Explain this.
Bullshit. It took Super Buu minutes to fly across the earth.
Relying on inconsistent feats. 99% of times ki blasts aren't anywhere near that fast. Normal humans can view them perfectly.
Filler
He only went lightspeed once in that show, and you could only "follow" him because the camera was showing scenes across the world as he ran across it.
Let us recap why Z wins again:
Even though speed is equal (which makes this whole speed discussion irrelevant) Vegeto has nothing to hurt Z. In 101 Secrets Light Hawk Wings are described as "A Manifestation of God's Aura" that nullify all attacks by converting them to harmless energy.
Tenchi's Light Hawk Wings nullified a black hole, which does infinite damage (having infinite gravity and density). Yes, Tenchi was beyond the event horizon. Vegeto cannot do as much damage as a black hole.
Z sat in the middle of Tokimi and Tsunami's clash, which destroyed a large part of the galaxy.
This is many orders of magnitude greater than anything any canon DBZ character has ever done. Z was completely unharmed.
Tokimi (who created Z's powers and trained him in their use and knows everything about them, and is also a multiverse creator) backed down because killing Z with just 2 LHWs would required destroying the universe (in TM!verse lingo, each dimension is a universe, and the hyperdimension is a multiverse. The 3rd dimension is the one where earth is and where most of the story takes place)
Z can warp space with his shockwaves and cause matter to simply disappear from existence. He can rewrite matter and energy on a high level. His telekinesis is sufficient to destroy a powerful spaceship from millions of kilometers away and carve his name in giant letters on the earth while cutting through the earth's crust to expose magma.
He can travel through time, both forward and backwards.
He can hang out in other dimensions and spy or attack from there, where Vegeto cannot reach him.
He can travel to other universes.
He can teleport himself or others anywhere in the universe instantly.
He can survive just fine in space, while Vegeto would suffocate (don't argue that resisting transmutation means he can survive without oxygen, that's a complete non-sequiter)
Vegeto, or anyone else in DBZ for that matter, has no chance. None at all.
Anyone who thinks he does is either ignorant or a borderline retard.
Case closed. [/B]
Endless wins...Logicality!