Z vs Vegeto

Originally posted by Kento
You do realize that stuff like

http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y26/Kento300/?action=view&current=DBZ_120.jpg

is shown in a pretty good bit of Shounen manga right? Even in manga where people aren't much better than mid-street. And Spider-Man has had at least one image I can think of where his hands are pretty much drawn the exact same way when punching some guy in armor.

How are you Kento, long time no see.

Can you please post scans to debate against what I brought up. Spiderman aint close to being on goku level of speed, not even kid goku, so why bring him up. 😕

Originally posted by carver9
How are you Kento, long time no see.

Can you please post scans to debate against what I brought up. Spiderman aint close to being on goku level of speed, not even kid goku, so why bring him up. 😕

I brought him up the same reason I brought the rest up. Slower people have been shown to do the exact same thing as Gokou and Nappa did. I'll see if I can find any scans.... I believe it's done in School Rumble even but I'd have to check. I know Kyo does it in Samurai Deeper Kyo for sure except it's against a sword attacks not punches. Comic Book characters..I can find at least two scans that have in one panel the characters fighting that have three of each characters in it. Lots of pictures in one panel doesn't make a speed feat. Gokou disappearing does but Rock Lee has pretty much done the same thing before. It's also one of those things that appear in shounen manga quite a bit.

lol I see these two are at it again. That means plenty of lowballing and fanboyness, I guess I'll jump in to be the voice of reason when it heats up again.

Originally posted by TheBadguy
lol I see these two are at it again. [B]That means plenty of lowballing and fanboyness, I guess I'll jump in to be the voice of reason when it heats up again. [/B]

Yeah well its a shame but its pretty much guaranteed lowballing and fanboyness is gonna happen anytime carver posts,its just good people like mike are there to correct him constantly 😄

Originally posted by Alucard25
Yeah well its a shame but its pretty much guaranteed lowballing and fanboyness is gonna happen anytime carver posts,its just good people like mike are there to correct him constantly 😄

I never low ball a character, I give reasons for all of my decisions and Mike has never put me in my place so I dont know where you get that from.

Originally posted by Kento
Good, and you?

I brought him up the same reason I brought the rest up. Slower people have been shown to do the exact same thing as Gokou and Nappa did. I'll see if I can find any scans.... I believe it's done in School Rumble even but I'd have to check. I know Kyo does it in Samurai Deeper Kyo for sure except it's against a sword attacks not punches. Comic Book characters..I can find at least two scans that have in one panel the characters fighting that have three of each characters in it. Lots of pictures in one panel doesn't make a speed feat. Gokou disappearing does but Rock Lee has pretty much done the same thing before. It's also one of those things that appear in shounen manga quite a bit.

Glad to see you on here, I miss a good debate about anime/manga.

On the scan you presented (even though there were better movements that came from both goku and Nappa), you can tell that what happened was instant movements and dodging. Its different than anything you just brought up and it could be used as a speed feat.

Just so all you kids know, when in the anime vs. forum and you do not know who wins, just take a look at who carver thinks wins.

The character who is fighting carver's character wins.

Well, if Z can erase half of the moon on a whim, then I don't see how Vegetto would win.

Besides, we've never seen Vegetto in his MAXED OUT state. He only went up to SSJ1, and he faired quite well against Super Buu, who is at least a planet-buster.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Just so all you kids know, when in the anime vs. forum and you do not know who wins, just take a look at who carver thinks wins.

The character who is fighting carver's character wins.

Undeniable logic.

Originally posted by occultdestroyer
Well, if Z can erase half of the moon on a whim, then I don't see how Vegetto would win.

Besides, we've never seen Vegetto in his MAXED OUT state. He only went up to SSJ1, and he faired quite well against Super Buu, who is at least a planet-buster.

Master Roshi destroyed the WHOLE moon on a whim.

"On a whim"? He used a max-power Kamehameha because Goku went Oozaru and could've killed everyone at the Budokai.

Vegito.... if Z can destroy half the moon and Vegito is stronger then piccolo, who destroyed the ENTIRE moon, then... yeah Vegito

That's ignoring the fact that Vegeto would have no defense against the attack Z made on the moon and that Vegeto cannot harm Z in the least.

Originally posted by Scarlet Fox
Vegito.... if Z can destroy half the moon and Vegito is stronger then piccolo, who destroyed the ENTIRE moon, then... yeah Vegito

From what I understand and saw according to my recollection he didn't destroy a part of the moon, he removed the matter from the moon entirely thus erased it from existence. Much better than shooting a beam and blowing it up. That is if the scene I am thinking of is the same scene we're debating about.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Just so all you kids know, when in the anime vs. forum and you do not know who wins, just take a look at who carver thinks wins.

The character who is fighting carver's character wins.

😆

Go right ahead and once you post whatever it is that you post against me, be prepared to debate against me.

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Undeniable logic.

Wei phoenix, I never had anything against you, why're you saying what you are saying.

Originally posted by carver9
Glad to see you on here, I miss a good debate about anime/manga.

On the scan you presented (even though there were better movements that came from both goku and Nappa), you can tell that what happened was instant movements and dodging. Its different than anything you just brought up and it could be used as a speed feat.

http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y26/Kento300/?action=view&current=SDK_v02ch014_p183.jpg

And there is this.

http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y26/Kento300/?action=view&current=kyo16_d173.jpg

And I just put up that scan of Nappa, and Gokou because that's the part you said to skip to in the Nappa, Gokou fight in the anime vid you posted.

Originally posted by carver9
Not a tv show, anime/marvel or dc, or manga.

Shame. I had a really nice speed feat from Kabuto where two characters a fighting so fast an energy attack from another character aimed at them is standing still.

Kabuto versus Goku would be a good fight. Kabuto has higher strength and speed and can time travel, but Goku has higher durability and attack power.

Anyway your complaint seems to be that other shows comics don't show speed in the same way as early DBZ. Note I said early because if you based speed of just how it looks on screen/panel Buu saga characters would not be very fast. There's different ways of showing speed Karas doesn't used after images but are you going to say they're slow?

Normal humans can perceive Z fighter battles to a limited degree but can't perceive Karas fighting. What does that tell you?

But fine, I use the Shrike from the Hyperion novels. So fast it can appear across multiple planets across the galaxy and at different time periods at the same time. Wiki it.

Wei phoenix, I never had anything against you, why're you saying what you are saying.

None of these arguments are personal, we don't know each other. He's saying it because he disagrees with you. Is your opinion so objectively right that anyone who disagrees must have a personal vendetta?

Okay, I'm sure I've done this before, but nevertheless. Carver who do you think is faster in combat the Flash or SSJ 3 Goku? How about Vegetto versus Tengen Toppa Gurren lagann?

Originally posted by carver9
I guess you didnt understand my post; I agree with a lot that you said, flight, no, they dont have the feats to go the speed of light. Reflexes and short burst, they're far above it.

Prove it

I dont care how long it took the z fighters to fly somewhere, what I want you to understand is where there reflexes is at.

Do you remember when doctor gero ( i know I spelled it wrong) shot a blast at bulma ship (that also had baby trunks in it). I could have sworn that I seen Trunks on the ground screaming in fear then all of a sudden he's on the ground with bulma and baby trunks in his hands. The plain was at least cloud height.

So he basically had to beat an already shot blast to a plane that is cloud height, take bulma and baby trunks out of the plain and then fly back to the ground before the explosion.

Now this is inaccurate

Here is that scene from the manga:

Gero fires:

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/dragon_ball/v29/c010/10.html

Trunks is worried as the blast explodes:

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/dragon_ball/v29/c010/11.html

Bulma's ship is hit by the shockwave of the blast (it wasn't even aimed at her directly). Trunks gets worried for her. The dust settles:

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/dragon_ball/v29/c010/12.html

Trunks saves them:

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/dragon_ball/v29/c010/13.html

So as you see, the ship was already in danger when Trunks even realized, so he had all the time it would take for the ship to fall to the ground to save them.

(BTW if the mangafox links don't work, know that it's volume 29, chapter 10, pages 10-13)

Another example; do you remember when frieza trapped goku in a ball of energy and frieza started bouncing and kicking goku every where?

Frieza told goku that if the ball touched anything besides him it would explode. Frieza decides to end it (the speed feat alone that frieza was performing on goku while in the ball would make anything that z has done look like shit)

LOL NO

by kicking the ball at a far distance. The ball hit the ground and explode. While the bomb goes off (with goku inside of it), none of the blast touch him

Prove it.

he outraced the explosion and was directly in front of frieza before the blast even started (remember, he was inside the ball of energy the entire time).

All that proves is that he's faster than the detonation velocity of the ki, which is unknown. Likely around 10 km/s, scaling via large explosives IRL.

Goku speed feats have no comparison. I'm not saying this because I'm a z fan (not going to lie, love everything behind it), I'm saying this because its the truth.

Except you have not bothered to attempt to quantify any of these feats.

Almost forgot, you brought up raditz only catching one bullet, are you implying that raditz cant pull the speed feats that kid goku did as a child?

No, I was simply stating the facts as they happened. I don't doubt that Raditz could catch or dodge multiple bullets.

You must forgot what went on throughout the 5 minutes of that fight? confused

Your argument would hold some weight if we didnt witness all that sh** that happened throughout that fight. I could have sworn throughout that 5 minutes planets even got destroyed (referring to the time frieza shot that death ball and goku punched it into space)..

Non-canon filler.

That 5 minute fight was above light speed, deal with it.

Prove it.

If this doesnt prove that the z fighters reflexes and short burst of speed is > the speed of light then you're in denial.

Fast forward to 3 minutes and 1 second and look what frieza was doing.

*snip*

I don't even need to watch that, since it's an anime clip and is thus non-canon.

I almost forgot to add, you know that Vegeta vs Kid buu fight that happened? Guess how long that fight was? It was just 60 seconds. Vegeta shot hundreds of blast (while his hands were moving at super speed), got thrown to a mountain etc... in less than a minute.

You mean when Goku was trying to gather energy for SSJ3?

Let me look that part up in the manga.

Series of events:

Vegeta flies at Buu and fires a ki blast at him. Buu gets his lower half cut off and regenerates. He then dodges Vegeta's next ki blast, Vegeta fires a few more. Mr. Satan is scared by the explosion. Vegeta keeps firing ki blasts while Buu starts to reform behind him. Buu then hits him with a doublehanded smash from behind and knocks him into the ground. Then Buu starts physically beating him up. They start exchanging blows. Goku says it's almost been a minute. Buu kicks Vegeta and stretches out his arm to grab him and starts choking him. Mr. Satan gets mad. Goku says he can't hold any more ki.

I have no idea where you get anywhere close to lightspeed out of that. That wouldn't even require supersonic speed (not saying that they are not supersonic, just clarifying that that particular feat wouldn't even need supersonic speed)

They're just that fast but what Ichigo did, people on regular dragonball did better things INSTANTLY like during thet Roshi and Krillin fight, you must forgot all that Krillin and Roshi did in less than a second.

Yes, we know. But that's barely sound speed considering the short distance they would have to move.

The first thing I want to use against you is the frieza hitting the ball around at such speed. Show me someone moving so fast instantly like frieza was that would make me think that they're fast. Show me someone hitting something and being behind/beside/in front of (your choice like frieza did.

Completely meaningless challenge if you don't even attempt to quantify it. You're just saying "HEY LOOK THIS IS FAST SHOW ME SOMETHING FASTER". Then when someone posts something, you simply say "SORRY NOT FAST ENOUGH" without even comparing them. Quantify this shit or get out.

My next one is this. On this scan goku has blast going completely through his body, not bullet but blast. The thing is he's moving so fast avoiding them that hes not even creating after images and it looks as if his body havent moved an inch. So show something similar to this feat.

That feat is hardly impressive since he only has to step 1 foot or so to the left or right. Speed = distance/time, if the distance is tiny the speed isn't going to be that impressive.

I'm ignoring the rest of your challenges since you keep saying "this is fast" without even attempting to claim how fast. How can someone post something faster if you don't even agree on how fast it is? What is your criteria you use for judging speed? How blurry the animation looks? 😆

He is leaving because he can't find any. Alot of NF'ers get their "knowledge" from a wiki and respect threads, instead of reading about the actually characters, so they think that for example Superman fights and flys FTL all the time and always throws planet destroying punches...even though he passed out from destroying a moon, by barely getting to light speed (this is current Supes btw)

That was not a normal moon. We've been over this.

And what is your point? DBZ characters don't constantly destroy planets in their fights. Most of the time they are hurt by attacks that only destroy small mountains or rock formations. Stop your hypocrisy.

It has already been established by writers and said throughout a couple of comics that superman cant go light speed.

Utter lie. JLA #30 confirmed that he could.

Hell, flash just left him in the dust recently when he cranked it up to the speed of light.

Flash was much faster than light in that race, also that race was on earth, and Superman doesn't go FTL on earth because it would do too much damage to the planet, also he was running and not flying, he is much faster flying than running. Stop with your lies and disinformation.

Hell, it has even been established that wonder woman reflexes is > Supes.Thats not the argument though, I want them to prove that a fighter can fight on the levels of dbz. I told them that they can put up ANY scan of there choosing. I dont care who it is but I'm pretty sure they'll never find it. I could post sh** from even Nappa that they probably couldnt find in a fight.

Your problem is that you don't give any criteria for evaluation. You base things solely on how visually impressive it looks to you. You don't even attempt to calculate or quantify anything.

Heck, look at this shit:

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/2018/highspeedfight.jpg

That's Catwoman and Lady Shiva. Peak humans.

By your arguments they are faster than Superman and Silver Surfer and such.

You base your entire argument on art style, not on quantifiable feats.

I never low ball a character, I give reasons for all of my decisions and Mike has never put me in my place so I dont know where you get that from.

It could be when I refuted all of your arguments, like I'm doing now. 😮‍💨

Glad to see you on here, I miss a good debate about anime/manga.

On the scan you presented (even though there were better movements that came from both goku and Nappa), you can tell that what happened was instant movements and dodging. Its different than anything you just brought up and it could be used as a speed feat.

Translation: "This is some kind of feat because I say so, ignore the fact that it is completely unquantifiable and just based on art style"

Hell, I'll prove it's art style.

Even Mr. Satan does this kind of thing:

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/4936/blurryjustartstyle.gif

OMG! HEZ PUNCHING AT THE SPED OF LIGHT!!!111!

Master Roshi destroyed the WHOLE moon on a whim.

There's a big difference between "destroy" and "erase from existence".

Besides you guys are acting like thats his best feat.