I feel like someone has crushed a couple of vertebrae in my neck.
But Know that I will be at Journey tomorrow night and that I will subdue my pain and crush the infidelsfinish this thing tonight.
k?
Edit: I will eat, watch an episode of Supernatural, crush the infidels, and then conclude the evening with another episode of Supernatural.
Originally posted by Gideon
I'm delighted that you mention this, because I very nearly forgot. Let's discuss Luke Skywalker and his fallibility.The movies have made it abundantly clear that the Force was extremely powerful within Luke; it's vague as to whether or not his connection to it was as potent as his father's, but the fact remains that he when he reached his full potential, he would be, at the very least, more powerful than the Emperor. If any of you have bothered to read the pain-in-the-ass essay I wrote on Palpatine, you'd understand that to be more powerful than the Emperor is something that is truly remarkable. Prodigious. In fact, there really are very few words for it.
As of Outcast, Luke is roughly sixty years old. That would make him a little younger than Palpatine circa Revenge of the Sith. Now, I realize that due to the various purges and Palpatine's pettiness towards other Force users that Luke has relatively very little to work with in the way of Force knowledge; he's had to go seek what little he does know out, since Palpatine consumed and destroyed most of the repositories of Jedi knowledge. So while we can conclude that Skywalker's mastery of the Force isn't as deep as say, Yoda's, it is pretty wide given conditions.
So I can accept the fact that his mastery of the Force is not as refined as the Emperor's or Yoda's simply because of his circumstances in lieu of awesome Force-related information.
The problem is combat. As a practical matter, Luke Skywalker has been in more fights to the death than pretty much anyone we've seen in the mythos bar Vader. His refinement and skill with the lightsaber and practical Force applications relative to combat should be peerless. And when I say peerless, I mean it. At this point, there should be no one who could stand up to Luke Skywalker in a straight up engagement and last longer than he feels is necessary.
No one.
Now, does that mean he's infallible, or that he should be? Hardly. We're not even suggesting that he be infallible in combat; just better than everyone else. The fact of the matter is that Skywalker is a man shackled by morality and naivete. That is why, for the most part, Lumiya's performance against him in Legacy of the Force is acceptable. She manipulated the environment, fought by proxy, distracted and deceived. Skywalker had to spend precious Force energy trying to save lives because she preferred not to fight him directly.
So had the Sith in this scenario been the ones to use the environment, to attack by proxy, deception, and misdirection, it would have been understandable. Because that is how a successful Sith fights. He or she "cheats." Furthermore, if we extend the scenario beyond combat and more or less a campaign, there are plenty of scenarios for a lesser opponent to overcome a superior one.
Take Palpatine versus Windu as an example. He lost the fight but won the war; Windu outmatched him in lightsaber combat, but the outcome was Windu's death because Palpatine manipulated Anakin. Luke isn't stupid, but he's far from genius-level. It's more believable that he's outwitted on a regular basis than outfought.
Plenty of options that LFL is apparently too retarded to take. Luke is (and should be) far from infallible. But when it comes to a straight up duel? No one, at this point, should come close.
In his timeframe, anyway.
I see what you're saying but are you also underestimating the unpredictability of a jedi vs jedi fight?
Luke for all his experience (and skill) will on occasion be met with a scenario where he's a little under par (he's getting on in years) or where his opponent is very unconventional.
It may even be that, there are opponents and allies within and without the Jedi order who are more creative than Luke or unpredictable in saber combat.
These type of factors can throw a bit of a monkey wrench into what might initially look like a predictable confrontation.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Journey is nothing without Steve Perry.
You will become the embodiment of humiliation and defeat for your outrageous blasphemy!
First, Perry's a vocal god
Spoiler:. The man's sixty friggin' years old and couldn't hit a high note if someone crushed his balls... as we shall soon discover with you!
completely drained of power and skill
Second, Journey consists of three extremely talented musicians and their bassist, Ross Valory, who, while not all that talented, is a funny man.
Third, two words: Arnel. Pineda.
Fourth,
no
😐
Originally posted by Allankles
I see what you're saying but are you also underestimating the unpredictability of a jedi vs jedi fight?Luke for all his experience (and skill) will on occasion be met with a scenario where he's a little under par (he's getting on in years) or where his opponent is very unconventional.
It may even be that, there are opponents and allies within and without the Jedi order who are more creative than Luke or unpredictable in saber combat.
These type of factors can throw a bit of a monkey wrench into what might initially look like a predictable confrontation.
Age, like Skywalker's physical condition, isn't much of a hurdle. The man has an access to the Force that supercedes anyone in the mythos bar Anakin Skywalker; his Force reserves are ridiculous in size and scope and thus his age and overall physical state means jack...
YOU HEAR THAT DS?!
Originally posted by Gideon
Age, like Skywalker's physical condition, isn't much of a hurdle. The man has an access to the Force that supercedes anyone in the mythos bar Anakin Skywalker; his Force reserves are ridiculous in size and scope and thus his age and overall physical state means jack...YOU HEAR THAT DS?!
PIS/CIS
Originally posted by Gideon
Age, like Skywalker's physical condition, isn't much of a hurdle. The man has an access to the Force that supercedes anyone in the mythos bar Anakin Skywalker; his Force reserves are ridiculous in size and scope and thus his age and overall physical state means jack...YOU HEAR THAT DS?!
Age does factor but not in the obvious way. The weaker (slower, more frail etc) the body, the more the Jedi has to lean on the force. Even something as simple as a saber block would require drawing deeper into the force for physical strength.
Essentially the focus has to be even greater with age, at some point Luke's mind may waver a little and this could affect his performance in combat now, more so than when he was younger, where he didn't need to focus as much on some of the physical excursions.
Originally posted by Gideon
We don't judge... but KMC has a don't ask, don't tell policy.
Gideon, I don't know how you could have done so, but you seem to have made a mistake in your attempt to quote me. You see, I labeled your plans Gay, specifically the choice to watch Supernatural. I did not write the phrase that you attributed to me.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I wonder if a lack of this policy is the reason RH frequents Janus' forum.
My initials are RN. I do not understand why you quoted Gideon's post (which, however mistaken, did in fact refer to me) if you felt the need to speculate on this RH's motives in anything.
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Gideon, I don't know how you could have done so, but you seem to have made a mistake in your attempt to quote me. You see, I labeled your plans Gay, specifically the choice to watch Supernatural. I did not write the phrase that you attributed to me.My initials are RN. I do not understand why you quoted Gideon's post (which, however mistaken, did in fact refer to me) if you felt the need to speculate on this RH's motives in anything.
And I've already told you, I've been going with RH since you created your name and that's what I will stick with. And I wasn't speculating. Speculation assumes something could either be true or false. I was merely stating a FACT.
Poppunker
as to palpatine getting weaker you said he gets weaker every time he uses the force that in no way comes close to starting off a fight against no-name sith(who can still be powerful even though we haven't seen the full extent of their abilities) already near death. Ben push's for him to get back as soon as he can because his body is going to die soon. He is very weak at this point.
😐
I think (and this isn't intended to be an insult) that you're arguing out of total ignorance of the situation. Palpatine did start his fight against Leia and company on the verge of death; his entire reason for being planetside to begin with was to procure Anakin Solo as a recepticle for his dark side essence. He wasn't exactly operating on a vast timetable. Carnor Jax and members of the Imperial Interim Ruling Council sabotaged the genetic makeup of Palpatine's clones, causing them to become unnaturally frail. Everytime Palpatine subsequently would call upon the Force or indulge in great emotion, he would bring himself physically closer to death. That is why his dark side adepts attempted to stop the Jedi first, before being cutdown. His physician and adepts both agreed that it was far too dangerous for Palpatine to assume combat duty given the fact that he would only harm himself more if he continued to use the Force.
That is a far more advanced stage of poor health than Luke can claim. And no, Poppunker, it isn't up for debate.
Poppunker
how is dooku near force exhaustion in the beginning of ROTS during their fight?
The Revenge of the Sith novelization specifically states that Dooku is on the verge of Force exhaustion, losing coordination and physical sight, which is why he has to use what little energy remains to divide Skywalker and Kenobi; they were becoming too much for him. When he was able to separate them, he called upon the Force "and the weight of his years dropped away," rejuvenating him completely.
Truejedi
BUT as to luke fighting Rhea when he isn't merciful she was in the middle of her "leaps of evasive maneuvers" and Luke just went for the kill.
What's your point? Luke was in no condition to continue the fight with any sense of morality or restraint; the book makes it very clear. If he wasn't in any danger, he would have been able to. But the line itself is completely unambiguous.
@ the others:
Luke's physical condition should have had no bearing on his performance against Lady Rhea. Numerous examples have been cited of physical inferior or frail individuals who were able to use the Force in such a manner that they transcended their weakness. I'd say Yoda's natural mobility as a creature of nine centuries was more restricted than even Skywalker's at that point, and yet he was able to imbue himself with superhuman levels of agility and speed so as to force Count Dooku -- who, unlike Rhea, is established as being one of the very most powerful and skilled duelists ever -- to retreat on a planet that enhanced the Count's own prodigious abilities. Sidious, too, was in a constant state of extremely poor health; the official site makes it clear that his body was "decaying," and that "the very source of Palpatine's strength was killing him." At best, you might be able to argue that Luke, at this point, was on par with both in physical frailty (though this isn't the case).
Do you know what the tremendous difference is between Yoda and Sidious and Luke? Aside from the fact that Yoda and Sidious were in similar physical states and performed better against opponents who actually mean something in the grand scheme of things, Luke possesses an attunement to the Force beyond either of them. Consider that Anakin's own Force reserves, though he did not master them, transcended Count Dooku's own from the get-go. Though Dooku was more skilled with the Force, he could not keep up with Skywalker simply because the boy's innate strength in the Force kept him from becoming exhausted.
Numerous statements in the book made it clear: Luke was able to temporarily reverse the damage of the atrophied muscles. Page 290 specifically states that Luke drew "on the Force, pulling it into himself to enliven atrophied muscles and restore dead synapses." He also told Ben that he was feeling better every second and not once is Luke's physical condition referenced during his duel with Lady Rhea and Vestara.
The truth to the matter is that if Luke is as powerful and as skilled as you all (DS, TJ, Poppunker, ect.) say he is, then he should have performed much better against a no-name whore and her protege.
The fight at the end is an awesome demonstration of Luke's Jedi ingenuity and deceptive cunning in combat, but it's a far cry from uber Force command and lightsaber skills.
Period.
Originally posted by Gideon
😐The truth to the matter is that if Luke is as powerful and as skilled as you all (DS, TJ, Poppunker, ect.) say he is, then he should have performed much better against a no-name whore and her protege.
Period.
You are the one that keeps saying he is good enough that he should get through each fight unscathed. I'm perfectly good with him escaping a fight with one wound on his stomach, and defeating his opponent, so this part:
The truth to the matter is that if Luke is as powerful and as skilled as you all (DS, TJ, Poppunker, ect.) say he is,
isn't attributible to me. It seems more attributable to u, as you keep bringing up what luke SHOULD HAVE been capable of, other than what he actually was. I haven't made a single excuse for him... I was impressed with the entire conflict, AS WRITTEN, so i don't need excuses for a fight that didn't really change my view of skywalker. Apaprently my view of skywalker is actually lower than yours? I just like him. I like Qui Gonn too, but I don't see him being invincible.
Luke won, its apparent he always wins, and to me, that pretty much means he is bada--. In feat wars, he still rules. I mean... Sidious got thrown down a shaft by vader... do we really want to compare character's weakest moments? No, for sidious, we don't start out bringing up Endor, we start out bringing up his best achievements. They all have weaker moments. Authors do that to make their stories interesting i guess. (Stupid authors.)
Second, i keep asking the question, and you haven't answered, why do you keep calling Rhea and Vestera so pathetic? The only combat we see them in, they go toe-to-toe with a jedi that you keep saying should be peerless. If i am to therefore trust your assessment of luke, then Rhea and Vestera just jumped way up the power chart, that's for sure.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
OR we can ignore all of that and credit this to more PIS/CIS, just like during Luke/Caedus fight.
We're not going to chalk shit up to PIS/CIS simply because you don't like the result. Christ, I feel like I'm constantly echoing myself with you.
If this happened once or twice, we might be able to do that. But that's only if logical solutions are exhausted.
Hell, if I had it my way, the Empire's 25,000 ISD figure, the Republic's three million clone figure, Dark Empire, Crystal Star, most of the Clone Wars, and the existence of post-RotJ "Sith" would all be... PIS.
But that's not the case.
Originally posted by Gideon
We're not going to chalk shit up to PIS/CIS simply because you don't like the result. Christ, I feel like I'm constantly echoing myself with you.If this happened once or twice, we might be able to do that. But that's only if logical solutions are exhausted.
Hell, if I had it my way, the Empire's 25,000 ISD figure, the Republic's three million clone figure, Dark Empire, Crystal Star, most of the Clone Wars, and the existence of post-RotJ "Sith" would all be... PIS.
But that's not the case.
I thought that WAS the case exactly. That all of that ended up being PIS or retconned or just contradicted. And what do you mean if this only happened once or twice? It happened against Lumiya, and now against Rhea. When else was Luke completely overwhelmed by his inferiors?