I would argue that it may be more or less akin to erecting a dam in an already flooded area. Get there too late, you might be able to stop the flow of water, but both sides remain wet.
Logic dictates, since Caedus is obviously weaker than his uncle, that it would be more likely that he could have stopped or resisted the attack if prepared than trying to overpower his uncle's superior telekinesis and then try to keep him out.
Originally posted by Gideon
I would argue that it may be more or less akin to erecting a dam in an already flooded area. Get there too late, you might be able to stop the flow of water, but both sides remain wet.Logic dictates, since Caedus is obviously weaker than his uncle, that it would be more likely that he could have stopped or resisted the attack if prepared than trying to overpower his uncle's superior telekinesis and then try to keep him out.
How does logic dictate that?I don't even think your analogy is sound for this kind of argument How about this? Logic dictates that despite caedus' best efforts at getting out of Luke's death grip while Luke showed no visible effort, it follows that even if Caedus had been prepared Luke would have done the exact same thing to him.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
IF that is all the quote has to offer, then it doesn't change anything. Whether or not Caedus was prepared is irrelevant. Luke was able to hold him with "no visible" effort, while Caedus was struggling to get out. Unles you're suggesting that once a powerful force user has you, you can't escape, the fact remains that Luke has MORE than enough feats to be a force titan. It's his saber battles that make me scream PIS or "you suck".
and here is what makes me think PIS. What saber battle author is going to write " And then luke dodge the guys attack and cut off his head, and then faster than the other 6 guys could move, luke zipped around the room lopping off their heads too. "
I mean, that makes really boring lit in a hurry.
Even ROTS novelization (based directly off the MOVIE) doesn't give Sidious the credit of a speedrush, because that is just boring.
Originally posted by truejedi
i could go with that.I think you were lookinng for this quote DS
"Keenly aware that all that stood between him and a quick death was Luke-Skywalker's much-strained sense of decency, Caedus let a little of his very real fear seep into the force..."
or maybe:
"Had it been Mara's death instead of Omas's that Luke had just heard about, Caedus knew he would already be dead."
or
"Luke lowered his hand, and the weight vanished from Caedus's chest. He could have leapt up to attack--had he been that foolish."
But nothing new really. It is pretty much accepted that Luke definitly had Caedus's number. He played him for a fool throughout LOTF.
And yet Luke couldn't defeat Rhea.. So I guess there's 3 possibilities.
1. Rhea could rival Caedus(EL OH EL)
2. PIS/CIS
3. Luke sucks at combat
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
How does logic dictate that?I don't even think your analogy is sound for this kind of argument How about this? Logic dictates that despite caedus' best efforts at getting out of Luke's death grip while Luke showed no visible effort, it follows that even if Caedus had been prepared Luke would have done the exact same thing to him.
No.
Caedus wasn't prepared for the assault. It's like leaving your front door wide open and trying to force a man out of your house as opposed to having the front door shut and locked and him still trying to get in.
Force defense makes a difference; compare all the telekinetic feats in the world. Obi-Wan being able to deflect Anakin's attack in RotS because he was prepared versus Dooku's sudden strike during their duel. Force defenses are hard to penetrate.
come now. He defeated Rhea, and there is no indication that he won't defeat Rhea without the fire-fight between Ben and Ship.
Caedus should have been ready for the telekinses attack. Indeed, he is ready for it. He is preparing for combat, he has all his traps in place, and everything else. The part that surprised him was that Luke was able to attack him without a gesture.
Its not like the attack itself came as a surprise.
(You've got the source on that, right? Or do i need to quote it?)
Originally posted by Gideon
No.Caedus wasn't prepared for the assault. It's like leaving your front door wide open and trying to force a man out of your house as opposed to having the front door shut and locked and him still trying to get in.
Force defense makes a difference; compare all the telekinetic feats in the world. Obi-Wan being able to deflect Anakin's attack in RotS because he was prepared versus Dooku's sudden strike during their duel. Force defenses are hard to penetrate.
Caedus was prepared for assault. Just not for an attack that came without luke raising his hand. (Pg. 133-134)
but this is rehashing territory we have been through before methinks.
Oh, and agreed about the force defenses thing too.
truejedi
come now.
Uh huh...
truejedi
Caedus should have been ready for the telekinses attack. Indeed, he is ready for it.
😐
"While it was true that Luke had taken him by surprise, it was equally true that he had done so with no visible effort -- and that he was continuing to hold him with no apparent exertion."
Yeah, we're done here.
Originally posted by Gideon
No.Caedus wasn't prepared for the assault. It's like leaving your front door wide open and trying to force a man out of your house as opposed to having the front door shut and locked and him still trying to get in.
Force defense makes a difference; compare all the telekinetic feats in the world. Obi-Wan being able to deflect Anakin's attack in RotS because he was prepared versus Dooku's sudden strike during their duel. Force defenses are hard to penetrate.
Wonderful, so it's your speculation that something different would have happened if he was "prepared". In fact by your analogy, you're implying he would have stopped Luke's assault. Seeing as how he did everything in his power to get out of it and Luke still showed no visible effort, it's highly unlikely anything would have changed. At the very MOST, Luke might have had to exert a little more energy with the same outcome.
Originally posted by Gideon
Uh huh...😐
"While it was true that Luke had taken him by [b]surprise
, it was equally true that he had done so with no visible effort -- and that he was continuing to hold him with no apparent exertion."Yeah, we're done here. [/B]
Yea we are, because your speculation that things would have turned out differently is just that. Unwarranted speculation. The book makes it explicitly clear. "NO VISIBLE EFFORT". That doesn't mean "IF HE WAS PREPARED HE WOULD HAVE STOPPED IT!!"
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Wonderful, so it's your speculation that something different would have happened if he was "prepared". In fact by your analogy, you're implying he would have stopped Luke's assault. Seeing as how he did everything in his power to get out of it and Luke still showed no visible effort, it's highly unlikely anything would have changed. At the very MOST, Luke might have had to exert a little more energy with the same outcome.
Are you insane?
Do you understand what preparation means? Force defense? Princess Leia was able to, as of A New Hope, shut out Darth Vader's mind probes to the point that Vader could not get the desired information out of her without exerting enough influence that might irretrievably damage her psyche (Death Star). Obi-Wan Kenobi was able to block a Force strike from Anakin, but was unable to defend himself against Count Dooku because he wasn't prepared. Force defenses, even when erected by weaker opponents, cause significant resistance.
Look at the quote again, DS. "It was equally true" regarding both Caedus's surprise and Luke's lack of effort. Obviously, if Caedus had been prepared, Luke would have had to exert more effort to subdue him.
that is out of context. I just said he was surprised by the manner of the attack,and i'm not backtracking on that now.
temper with this:
pg. 133
"he took the precaution of slipping towards his desk, where he would have access to a dozen weapons and traps he had prepared in anticipation of just such a confrontation. "
Clearly expecting a fight.
pg. 134: "In the next instant, Caedus, found himself flying across the cabin towards his observation bubble. Luke had not gestured, had not flinched, had not even shifted his gaze, He had simply grabbed Caedus in the Force and hurled him five meters into his chair."
My only point i'm making is that Caedus had all the warning he needed to be prepared, and was expecting a fight. The fact that luke attacked him in such a way that Caedus was unprepared for is different than acting like Caedus had no idea an attack was coming.
Originally posted by Gideon
Are you insane?Do you understand what preparation means? Force defense? Princess Leia was able to, as of A New Hope, shut out Darth Vader's mind probes to the point that Vader could not get the desired information out of her without exerting enough influence that might irretrievably damage her psyche (Death Star). Obi-Wan Kenobi was able to block a Force strike from Anakin, but was unable to defend himself against Count Dooku because he wasn't prepared. Force defenses, even when erected by weaker opponents, cause significant resistance.
Look at the quote again, DS. "It was equally true" regarding both Caedus's surprise and Luke's lack of effort. Obviously, if Caedus had been prepared, Luke would have had to exert more effort to subdue him.
This is not what you were insinuating, and it's something I acknowledged. At the very MOST, Luke would have had to exert some more effort to achieve the SAME outcome. You are acting as Caedus would have been able to stop the attack had he been prepared, which is just ridiculous.
Originally posted by truejedi
that is out of context. I just said he was surprised by the manner of the attack,and i'm not backtracking on that now.temper with this:
pg. 133
"he took the precaution of slipping towards his desk, where he would have access to a dozen weapons and traps he had prepared in anticipation of just such a confrontation. "Clearly expecting a fight.
pg. 134: "In the next instant, Caedus, found himself flying across the cabin towards his observation bubble. Luke had not gestured, had not flinched, had not even shifted his gaze, He had simply grabbed Caedus in the Force and hurled him five meters into his chair."
My only point i'm making is that Caedus had all the warning he needed to be prepared, and was expecting a fight. The fact that luke attacked him in such a way that Caedus was unprepared for is different than acting like Caedus had no idea an attack was coming.
Yea I wonder how that makes Caedus "unprepared".
Darth Sexy
Yea we are, because your speculation that things would have turned out differently is just that. Unwarranted speculation. The book makes it explicitly clear. "NO VISIBLE EFFORT". That doesn't mean "IF HE WAS PREPARED HE WOULD HAVE STOPPED IT!!"
...
Gideon
Logic dictates, since Caedus is obviously weaker than his uncle, that it would be more likely that he could have stopped or resisted the attack if prepared than trying to overpower his uncle's superior telekinesis and then try to keep him out.
Congratulations, DS. You're on ignore. Permanently.
Gideon
Logic dictates, since Caedus is obviously weaker than his uncle, that it would be more likely that he could have stopped or resisted the attack if prepared than trying to overpower his uncle's superior telekinesis and then try to keep him out.
And then this.
Look at the quote again, DS. "It was equally true" regarding both Caedus's surprise and Luke's lack of effort. Obviously, if Caedus had been prepared, Luke would have had to exert more effort to subdue him.
Is it past your bedtime when you think those two statements ultimately mean the same thing? Which one is it? Could he have stopped or resisted, or did Luke simply need to exert more energy? Or do you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about?
I'll see your ignore and raise your contradictions.
Originally posted by truejedi
My only point i'm making is that Caedus had all the warning he needed to be prepared, and was expecting a fight. The fact that luke attacked him in such a way that Caedus was unprepared for is different than acting like Caedus had no idea an attack was coming.
Your point sounds terribly selective. Luke's move was legitimate, but Caedus (like Obi-Wan vs. Dooku), was clearly not expecting a telekinetic assault. It was specifically noted by the narration. If your intent was to slant that, mission failed.
Originally posted by Gideon
Your point sounds terribly selective. Luke's move was legitimate, but Caedus (like Obi-Wan vs. Dooku), was clearly not expecting a telekinetic assault. It was specifically noted by the narration. If your intent was to slant that, mission failed.
ROFL. So because Caedus wasn't expecting a specific attack, he was unprepared and that's a strike against Luke? You make less and less sense after midnight.
That's like saying I'm ready to fight a guy but I wasn't expecting him to poke me in the eyes, therefore I'm unprepared.
Originally posted by truejedi
i think my point was only to establishWhich i think i did, or at least reiterated. So no failure.
No one denied it was legitimate. It was as legitimate as Mace Windu kicking Sidious in the face or Dooku hurling Obi-Wan across the room or Sidious blasting Yoda with lightning or Yoda blasting Sidious with telekinesis and so on.