FOTJ Spoilers Thread.

Originally posted by Gideon
No one denied it was legitimate. It was as legitimate as Mace Windu kicking Sidious in the face or Dooku hurling Obi-Wan across the room or Sidious blasting Yoda with lightning or Yoda blasting Sidious with telekinesis and so on.

Then why are you bitching about Caedus being unprepared and therefore it was a mark against Luke, while trying to insinuate that Caedus could have blocked or resisted, WHILE simultaneously stating that Luke just had to exert more energy? You're done Gideon.

I've always wondered if we haven't placed Caedus too high.

If luke is weaker in combat than in the force. (and everything post NJO so far seems to indicate so.... (as he seems to be quite beastly in the force, but is injured in every combat since))

Then we would consider NJO luke's combat peak, and i'm willing to bet that his force peak is yet to arrive.

So... Caedus hanging with him in inferno, doesn't help caedus. Caedus getting humiliated in the force by luke literally all the way through LOTF doesn't help Caedus. Caedus being killed by Jaina doesn't really help Caedus.

Caedus has his duel with Katarn, and he has a book-flap cover.

Am i missing something?

No, Caedus is definitely up there. The PIS/CIS only really applies to Luke, as they didn't want to overpower him in the LOTF series. However it's clear Luke's force abilities are unparalleled. Again though, he either sucks as a fighter, or it's more PIS/CIS.

I'm holding out for the rest of FOTJ though. I'm especially looking forward to seeing how Luke handles the Rancors, since Galen killed whole armies of them, no problem.

If Luke struggles with one, i"m screaming PIS so loudly they hear it in the Milk Bar.

If those treacherous back flaps are to be trusted, Caedus is both "one of the most powerful Sith Lords [ever? in history?]" with a command of the Force that surpasses "even" his grandfather, Darth Vader, implying that that is his upper limit.

I'd say he isn't that far removed from the rest of the Jedi Council. Superior to all of them? Likely, yes, but not by miles.

Originally posted by truejedi
I'm holding out for the rest of FOTJ though. I'm especially looking forward to seeing how Luke handles the Rancors, since Galen killed whole armies of them, no problem.

If Luke struggles with one, i"m screaming PIS so loudly they hear it in the Milk Bar.

Again TJ, there's no alternative explanations.

He either sucks at combat, which can't be the case considering his fights with Palpatine and Caedus, or it's PIS/CIS designed not to make him look too powerful. That's what I attribute it to. Of course, if he faces someone that is his equal or superior(Abeloth), nobody is going to scream CIS/PIS.

Well, he is a cut above the rest, that's obvious, because he does keep winning, and he gets one or two Omniscient accolades per book about how great he is.... (more of those than any other character in the mythos ) But HOW FAR above, i guess could be debated.

Gideon, is that what you are getting at with this discussion?
I'm fine with him being 1/2% above the rest, or less. It really doesn't matter to me. Some might be more angry about it.

His ability to use the force is not on the SCALE of Sidous, but he does use it quite convincingly. Does SCALE alone mean power? That is a question we haven't quite answered.

I'd say sidious's most impressive feat is his hindering of the ability of 10,000 jedi to use the force. (imho) The real question is can that ALL be attributed to him? or was it the result of 2000 years of the sith?

force-storm obviously good too!

and i'm rambling. So i'll stop.

Originally posted by truejedi
Well, he is a cut above the rest, that's obvious, because he does keep winning, and he gets one or two Omniscient accolades per book about how great he is.... (more of those than any other character in the mythos ) But HOW FAR above, i guess could be debated.

Gideon, is that what you are getting at with this discussion?
I'm fine with him being 1/2% above the rest, or less. It really doesn't matter to me. Some might be more angry about it.

His ability to use the force is not on the SCALE of Sidous, but he does use it quite convincingly. Does SCALE alone mean power? That is a question we haven't quite answered.

I'd say sidious's most impressive feat is his hindering of the ability of 10,000 jedi to use the force. (imho) The real question is can that ALL be attributed to him? or was it the result of 2000 years of the sith?

and i'm rambling. So i'll stop.

Gideon's mind stopped working after midnight in case you haven't read his responses. Caedus is a powerhouse. Luke is more of a powerhouse. Luke is NOT a smart fighter. CIS and PIS have both dominated the post ROTJ books, ESPECIALLY LOTF..

well, they just built luke up to the point where it would be boring to read about him fighting at the level they put him.

The whole thing just doesnt fit. ( i guess, i still have no problem with luke taking a slash across the midriff from a weapon he hadn't faced before.) that didn't seem to belittle him too much. Caedus being as highly rated as he was hanging with luke never bothered me.

The only thing (in my mind) that truly didn't fit were the Lumiya fights.

I see Luke as the best combatant in star wars history, but not at all infallible.

See, the word infallible is not the word peerless.

Tiger woods is peerless. No question, but he can still lose. And did lose just last week.

So i think he can remain peerless and still be threatened as long as he pulls out the win(which he continues to do)

Well he's a shitty combatant in terms of intelligence. In terms of saber combat, he should have no equal. So where does that leave us? CIS/PIS/he sucks. One of the 3.

Truejedi
Well, he is a cut above the rest, that's obvious, because he does keep winning, and he gets one or two Omniscient accolades per book about how great he is.... (more of those than any other character in the mythos ) But HOW FAR above, i guess could be debated.

More of those than any other character? Possibly. And yes, he's certainly a cut above most.

Truejedi
Gideon, is that what you are getting at with this discussion?
I'm fine with him being 1/2% above the rest, or less. It really doesn't matter to me. Some might be more angry about it.

What I'm getting at is that Skywalker is not performing at a consistent level that concludes that he is the most skilled, most talented, most powerful, greatest uber-Force-king-of-uber-Force-gods evar!!1! He is, no more and no less, the Mace Windu/Yoda of his generation. Which, while is extremely impressive, does not make him live up to the reputation he has around here.

I've made it clear that I think he should be pretty much in his own category at this point, but it's really not necessarily the case. And simply because we expect or want Luke to be the best does not mean we can do so simply to facilitate our own interpretation of the character.

I really don't like Ragnos or Galen Marek or Revan, but that doesn't change my perceptions of their power level one whit, positive or negative.

Truejedi
His ability to use the force is not on the SCALE of Sidous, but he does use it quite convincingly. Does SCALE alone mean power? That is a question we haven't quite answered.

Luke is limited for two reasons. His fear of the dark side prevents him from going superdestructive on everyone, which is acceptable. And the fact that he has a limited range of information due to Jedi purges. Which is why, with what powers he does have, he can excel. I refer you to the black hole incident.

The point is that people need to recognize that Luke's mastery of the Force is not without peer or the greatest we've ever seen. He's extremely proficient in limited scope.

Truejedi
I'd say sidious's most impressive feat is his hindering of the ability of 10,000 jedi to use the force. (imho) The real question is can that ALL be attributed to him? or was it the result of 2000 years of the sith?

I'd agree that it is his most impressive feat. And no; the Sith assisted by changing the state of the Force, shifting it from light to dark. But nowhere is it stated that they were blunting Jedi sensitivity. That didn't happen until the Emperor, whom Stover notes "is the darkness in the Force" that is blunting their senses.

The Mace/Yoda of his era? Are you high? Who is possibly superior to Luke in the force other than Sidious? I'll wait. And again, while you attribute his lack of uberness to his...lack of skill, we can attribute it to CIS/PIS or being a mediocre fighter. You don't get to choose all the negative points involving Luke and then telling that his accolades aren't really that impressive.

His feats with the force are enough to put him at 1 or 2, depending on where Sidious goes.

If we look at past events, Luke obviously isn't a mediocre fighter. Mediocrity implies that he is average at best...

Originally posted by Gideon
A simple reason: Skywalker isn't as good as people make him out to be. And LFL is retarded.

Alas, if only that were reason enough to ignore some of the dumber things...

and there is another possibility, that being that the Sith simply are that good. We shall have to see how they do in future fights with the jedi.

Originally posted by truejedi
and there is another possibility, that being that the Sith simply are that good. We shall have to see how they do in future fights with the jedi.

have u never seen anything stupid happen in Star Wars? I'll make a prediction. All the Jedi will struggle with all the Sith from the Tribe. It feels like a pretty safe prediction. These authors really like their interesting fights.

I will quote Drew Karpyshyn here: "Each character has strengths and weaknesses, and they grow and change as their stories progress. On any given day, at any given time, under any given circumstance anyone can win or lose. That’s what dramatic conflict is all about."

The case of Luke also falls under similar context. I mean, if he is portrayed to keep on stomping over every opponent, it will seem boring to the readers.

Also, I would use my own logic in this regard:

Darth Revan likely mastered Force Lightning to such a degree that he could unleash a Force Storm with the said technique. Now he may manage to destroy an entire Droid Army with the technique or set a forest to fire. He may overwhelm many opponents with the said technique. From "visual context," people will be in awe when they would see such display of power in cinematics. However if he pits the same technique against lets say Mace Windu or Luke Skywalker, there is a chance that the technique may fail to do the intended damage as it would do otherwise. And Revan may seem weak in such a case or may gain little benefit. In other words, his technique fails in this particular scenario.

So even if Luke have some pretty impressive showings with the Force, it does not means that he will shit on everybody in every circumstance in a duel. The fact however remains that he faced many high profile opponents and made it out alive from every duel, and it is a testamount to his power.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I will quote Drew Karpyshyn here: "Each character has strengths and weaknesses, and they grow and change as their stories progress. On any given day, at any given time, under any given circumstance anyone can win or lose. That’s what [b]dramatic conflict is all about."

The case of Luke also falls under similar context. I mean, if he is portrayed to keep on stomping over every opponent, it will seem boring to the readers.

Also, I would use my own logic in this regard:

Darth Revan mastered Force Lightning to such a degree that he could unleash a Force Storm with the said technique. Now he may manage to destroy an entire Droid Army with the technique or set a forest to fire. He may overwhelm many opponents with the said technique. From visual context, people will be awed by such display of power. However if he pits the same technique against lets say Mace Windu or Luke Skywalker, there is a chance that the technique may fail to do the intended damage as it would do otherwise. And Revan may seem weak in such a case.

So even if Luke have some pretty impressive showings with the Force, it does not means that he will shit on everybody in every circumstance in a duel. [/B]

That is a pretty good point. It reminds me of my Tiger woods comparison. Undoubtedly the best, peerless, and everyone is scared of him, but he could lose on any given sunday.

Originally posted by truejedi
have u never seen anything stupid happen in Star Wars? I'll make a prediction. All the Jedi will struggle with all the Sith from the Tribe. It feels like a pretty safe prediction. These authors really like their interesting fights.