FOTJ Spoilers Thread.

Started by Dr McBeefington20 pages

The fact remains that Luke is a force powerhouse. Gideon "I can't think past midnight" would have you believe that if Jacen was ready, he could have resisted or blocked the attack, while at the same time telling you that Luke could have just exerted his efforts(which do we follow)?

The bottom line is no, no he couldn't have done anything.
For instance. Zannah can prepare for Bane's attacks the ENTIRE day, and Bane will still shred through her defenses. Why would this be different for Jacen and Luke, when Luke is the superior force user? Answer: It wouldn't. Jacen's defenses will still be shredded and at best, Luke will have to exert a little more energy.

Originally posted by Gideon
I'd agree that it is his most impressive feat. And no; the Sith assisted by changing the state of the Force, shifting it from light to dark. But nowhere is it stated that they were blunting Jedi sensitivity. That didn't happen until the Emperor, whom Stover notes "is the darkness in the Force" that is blunting their senses.

Where do people get that Sidious hindered the ability to feel the force for 10,000 jedi? Isn't that a misconception? Sidious clouded their perception within the force (like a shroud over their eyes).

Meaning they couldn't clearly see the possible futures and they couldn't clearly see Palpatine for what he is, nor properly decipher that the clone wars was a prelude to a greater catastrophe.

Otherwise the Jedi's ability to manipulate the force was unaffected. Yoda, Mace and Anakin were still powerhouses. Obi Wan was still deadly and precise etc etc

order 66 is a prime example of how their perception was affected, their sensitivity to the force was unaffected.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
The fact remains that Luke is a force powerhouse. Gideon "I can't think past midnight" would have you believe that if Jacen was ready, he could have resisted or blocked the attack, while at the same time telling you that Luke could have just exerted his efforts(which do we follow)?

The bottom line is no, no he couldn't have done anything.
For instance. Zannah can prepare for Bane's attacks the ENTIRE day, and Bane will still shred through her defenses. Why would this be different for Jacen and Luke, when Luke is the superior force user? Answer: It wouldn't. Jacen's defenses will still be shredded and at best, Luke will have to exert a little more energy.

I believe Jedi are taught how to protect against TK attacks even against stronger force users. It's not far fetched to imagine that Jacen (while prepared) could conceivably protect himself from being rag dolled, otherwise what's the big deal about being force sensitive?

Just because the geniuses that came up with the force unleashed story had no concept of TK defense doesn't mean it should apply to every confrontation. Otherwise you run into calling every OT fight between Luke and Vader PIS.

Originally posted by Allankles
I believe Jedi are taught how to protect against TK attacks even against stronger force users. It's not far fetched to imagine that Jacen (while prepared) could conceivably protect himself from being rag dolled, otherwise what's the big deal about being force sensitive?

Just because the geniuses that came up with the force unleashed story had no concept of TK defense doesn't mean it should apply to every confrontation. Otherwise you run into calling every OT fight between Luke and Vader PIS.

Once again, an example. Zannah could throw up a force shield or whatever the hell she wants, and Bane would pulverize her with a force wave, breaking her "defense". A more powerful force user has the tendency to break the defense of a weaker force user, regardless of preparation. The same concept applies to Jacen against Luke. Had he prepared(hilarious notion considering he was ready for a fight) against Luke, Luke might have had to exert more energy but the outcome would have been the same.

Luke refuses to fight agressively because he believes that will lead him down a path to the dark side. But in a war, street brawl or viciously attacked like he was Rhea where there is 'no quarter asked nor given,' he should fight dirty. Any means neccessary. He could have killed Shimmra without decapitating him.

Back to the point when he was in no mood to be merciful, it kinda shows he was a bit pissed off. The strike steam was virtually gunned down - wait was gunned down cept for Vestara and Rhea. Rhea got knocked out by one punch and Rhea gutted like a fish. Killing with one strike is one thing, but killing like that is totally different. Rhea may have been on par with Caedus [in theory], but Luke had already beaten Caedus and inflicted a head wound. IMO he already knew how to fight a dirty brawl.

There's no evidence whatsoever that Rhea is on par with Caedus.

That is why I said 'in theory' - I should have clarrified with lightsaber technique. But back to what I meant. He was pissed off, and when he was pissed off he can again in theory defeat anyone. Anakin did against Asajj when she pissed him off.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
There's no evidence whatsoever that Rhea is on par with Caedus.

there is some. She was able to compete with luke in a lightsaber fight.
Caedus was able to compete with Luke in a lightsaber fight.

Where is the evidence that Caedus is stronger than Rhea? (imo he is, but i think we have to wait see how the rest of the series plays out before being able to prove that)

Originally posted by truejedi
there is some. She was able to compete with luke in a lightsaber fight.
Caedus was able to compete with Luke in a lightsaber fight.

Where is the evidence that Caedus is stronger than Rhea? (imo he is, but i think we have to wait see how the rest of the series plays out before being able to prove that)

I don't consider PIS/CIS or Luke's weakness as evidence. Caedus caused a hell of a lot more damage on Luke as well. I would think he would curbstomp Rhea.

So a no name sith out of the blue, with almost no background story manages to go with luke toe to toe?

Extremely stupid.

we already went over that we have seen stupid before wolfie. I'm just waiting for more facts to make up my mind on WHY that fight went exactly the way it did.

The answer is PIS

so you definitly admit we have seen stupidity from star wars.(PIS) Now if the Jedi struggle with every Lost Tribe Sith they meet, does that change your mind on PIS? Or will it be PIS on a wider scale to you?

Curious, i have no opinion on the subject myself.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Once again, an example. Zannah could throw up a force shield or whatever the hell she wants, and Bane would pulverize her with a force wave, breaking her "defense". A more powerful force user has the tendency to break the defense of a weaker force user, regardless of preparation. The same concept applies to Jacen against Luke. Had he prepared(hilarious notion considering he was ready for a fight) against Luke, Luke might have had to exert more energy but the outcome would have been the same.

Again, I said it would not be far fetched for a prepared Jacen to resist being ragdolled by Luke's TK. This would seem sensible to me, as the whole point of being force sensitive is to get such perks, especially against other Jedi.

Jedi can get ragdolled by other Jedi certainly, but it's not inconceivable that a relatively powerful Jedi can block/prevent a TK attack directed at their bodies, even from a stronger force user if they are prepared.

I call it sensible, you call it PIS.

Originally posted by Allankles
Again, I said it would not be far fetched for a prepared Jacen to resist being ragdolled by Luke's TK. This would seem sensible to me, as the whole point of being force sensitive is to get such perks, especially against other Jedi.

Jedi can get ragdolled by other Jedi certainly, but it's not inconceivable that a relatively powerful Jedi can block/prevent a TK attack directed at their bodies, even from a stronger force user if they are prepared.

I call it sensible, you call it PIS.


A good example for Allankles point is the battle between Kas'im and Bane on Lehon, Kas'im always has his Force Shield up he blocked the blast himself. Only the blast had enough strength tp bring the temple dpwn on top of him.

Simplified:

Force: Bane>Kas'im
Kas'im blocked the blast.

It is possible 🙂

sure, maybe jacen could block it. But he didn't. So he probably wouldn't next time either. I don't see how that makes it less impressive.

How is Vestara going to explain to the Council that the strike team was wiped out by two men? They're going to be really pissed.

Jacen aka Caedus was stronger than Anakin/Vader and nearly as powerful as Luke. Almost on par with him with the lightsaber too. Pain didn't bother him a bit so these Sith wouldn't have any experience fighting someone who ignores wounds and practically doesn't feel them, but feeds off the pain.

Allankles
Where do people get that Sidious hindered the ability to feel the force for 10,000 jedi? Isn't that a misconception? Sidious clouded their perception within the force (like a shroud over their eyes).

Meaning they couldn't clearly see the possible futures and they couldn't clearly see Palpatine for what he is, nor properly decipher that the clone wars was a prelude to a greater catastrophe.

Otherwise the Jedi's ability to manipulate the force was unaffected. Yoda, Mace and Anakin were still powerhouses. Obi Wan was still deadly and precise etc etc

order 66 is a prime example of how their perception was affected, their sensitivity to the force was unaffected.

I appreciate your attempt at clarification, but Mace Windu himself says in Attack of the Clones that the Jedi's ability to "use the Force" is diminishing. I would argue that sensitivity and perception are terms that are intertwined; the Jedi Council refers to Yoda's ability to sense the deepest currents of the Force as "sensitivity" in Labyrinth of Evil. Palpatine was responsible for the so-called shroud; his very existence and (presumably) constant rituals as portrayed in Sithisis helped blunt their senses across a galaxy.

mattatom
It is possible 🙂

Not when DS says it isn't.

😐

This is what happens when certain individuals deem it necessary to cast aside certain situations and circumstances that don't portray their preferred character in the best of lights. He and I had this discussion elsewhere; he's gone on record saying Andeddu must have been weakened during his fight with Wyyrlok and that Ragnos must have also been weakened during his fight with Jaden Korr on Korriban. Why? Because Andeddu and Ragnos were ancient Sith and ancient Sith are clearly all powerful and better than everyone who comes after them (except for Palpatine and Luke). Period. Why? Because older is synonymous with better, in almost all cases. Like technology.

Oh, wait.

It's a tactic called "reaching" and it assumes facts not in evidence. It's baseless, it's asinine, and it's ultimately what caused me to block him. The constant scrambling and screaming of PIS! PIS! PIS! wears thin when one wishes to excuse certain feats on PIS without even attempting to rationally explain it.

The mythos has shown us that, when prepared, lesser combatants can frustrate the efforts of their superiors. From Leia Organa Solo's resistence to the more experienced Vader's mindprobes to Kas'im and Kenobi blocking telekinetic attacks from Bane and Vader, respectively. There is no reason to assume that Luke would have not had to exert more effort, especially when the narration specifically mentions the fact that Caedus was caught by surprise. Could Caedus have triumphed over Luke's attempts to restrain him? Possibly, but it is certain that he would have caused Luke to exert more effort to hold him.

Fortunately, the

Spoiler:
mind blowingly awesome concert
has cleared my head and has allowed me to approach this with more patience. The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia makes abundantly clear the fact that a great attunement to the Force does not inherently grant one a monumental mastery of the Force. That only comes through dedicated study, meditation, and intense training. The simple truth is that Luke hasn't enjoyed a thoroughly educated mentor in the ways of the Force since Yoda; his tenure with the likes of the Aing-Tii have only been recent and brief. He is largely self-taught, and it is only due to his prodigious learning rate that he is what he is. It's impressive, but the truth is that Skywalker is essentially a street-wise man being compared against those with classical educations. There are some techniques that he will undoubtably possess that many others do not, but in the case of Force users like Odan-Urr, Yoda, and Sidious? The breadth of their training is simply too vast and deep to compare with on a total level.

Consider that Luke's greatest feats -- his manipulation of the dovin basal and his duel against UnuThul -- weren't brought out of complex techniques, but simply a far greater form of common telekinesis. It was due to his strength in the Force, not his all encompassing mastery of it, that he was able to perform such feats.

It's a fine line. And there are circumstances in which greater experience does not yield one a superior command of the Force. I would argue, like the Encyclopedia suggests, that true proficiency is an application of both great training and a proficient raw connection to the Force. Consider Anakin Skywalker vs. Obi-Wan Kenobi; Kenobi is undoubtably the more experienced Jedi and, based on all accounts, the greater scholar. But Anakin's superior, raw attunement to the Force leads most sources to indicate that he is not only the greater combatant, but is also simply more powerful than Kenobi, despite Kenobi's superior training and experience. Then consider Darth Vader vs. Starkiller; Vader was the more experienced Sith and clearly maintained a knowledge of all that Starkiller knew, yet Starkiller's connection to the Force was -- due to the injuries Vader sustained on Mustafar and his psychological weaknesses -- greater than Vader's, allowing him to defeat his former Master in combat. Lastly, examine Caedus vs. Luke in combat. By all accounts, Caedus possessed knowledge of the Force that Luke simply did not have, but that didn't prevent Luke from defeating him in combat.

Experience alone is clearly not enough. And neither is just a great connection to the Force. A truly proficient, powerful Jedi or Sith has both in spades.

Skywalker's performance here, as has been stated before, was during a time when his body started out remarkably weak. But the fact of the matter is that there have been other Force users who were in similar states due to age and the case of at least one Force user who was in a worse condition due to age and Force-related biological sabotage. And these individuals performed against their opponents to an extent greater than or (if one refuses to be charitable) at the very least equal to Skywalker.

Why do I bring this up? Because it is a popular myth that "lawl Look Skiwalkur is teh bestest ever by miles and milles and milles!!1!"

This is clearly not the case. Taking all of his performances in combat into account, I stand by my assessment that he is his generation's Yoda/Mace Windu. Does that mean he is dead equal to Yoda or Windu? No. It means he's on the same tier as regards most things, and an argument can be made that he's a notch or two greater. But it still is an argument.

His exact place is hard to pinpoint, which is what I'm trying to get across here.

According to Gideon's logic, I could play for the Dallas Cowboys if I prepare myself. Oh wait. Maybe we shouldn't subscribe to Gideon's logic when he posts after midnight and his posts are contradictory because he is basing Luke's skill on his failures rather that his much more impressive feats. When I accuse him of reaching in an entirely different direction with his contradictions and "lolz Jacen can block if he is prepared for a force attack rather than a fight" logic, he starts crying like a little kid and uses the ignore function.