I'm reasonably sure that I know DS well enough. Something tells me that he didn't address Mattatom's point where the inferior Kas'im blocks the superior Bane's telekinetic assault, thus rendering his entire argument moot.
Anyone who doesn't have him on ignore want to confirm or disprove my theory?
Edit: And I bet the next response doesn't address it, either.
surprise surprise Gideon ignores the fact that his contradiction stands and that he lacks any kind of evidence for one of his premises that Jacen could block Luke. And then typical predictable Gideon pretends that I'm on ignore by "guessing" what I might say. In case you're suffering from your midnight retardation Gideon, it doesn't appear anyone is the least bit interested in what you consider a theory. My football analogy stands but i predict that you will continue ignoring that which you cannot prove.
And mattadom to answer your question and the argument Gideon is too ignorant to refute, it IS possible. However, Inferno indicates Jacen was preparing for a fight, so there's no kind of proof indicating Jacen could have blocked it. Unless you want to go with Gideon's "he wasn't prepared for a force technique lol."
Originally posted by truejediThat we can only find out when the newer books come out.
so you definitly admit we have seen stupidity from star wars.(PIS) Now if the Jedi struggle with every Lost Tribe Sith they meet, does that change your mind on PIS? Or will it be PIS on a wider scale to you?Curious, i have no opinion on the subject myself.
And another possibility is inconsistent writing.
Example kyp and kyle being so ub3r in the NJO and them being crappy in FOTJ due to the authors incompetence.
Wolverine2179
Example kyp
Unless I'm seriously mistaken, (which is a statistical impossibilityunlikely) where is Kyp "crappy"?
IIRC, he doesn't see any real action at all throughout the series.
Wolverine2179
and kyle being so ub3r in the NJO and them being crappy in FOTJ due to the authors incompetence.
That Kyle defeated Jerec and a handful of moderately threatening dark Jedi in combat doesn't necessarily mean that he's anything approaching uber in the grand scheme of things. I mean, come on; you're the big Vader expert. He lost fair and square to Luke in Return of the Jedi; doesn't mean anything.
Addendum: Consider that losing to Caedus isn't an indicator of "teh suxx0rs" either but a sign that Caedus is a truly lethal combatant and powerful master of the Force.
I was actually just trying to use an example where authors can underpower or overpower certain characters when they choose to.
I did however use a bad example so i will use another one.
Sidious is known to be incredibly powerful but i wouldn't be surprised if a new author writing the book portrayed sidious weaker due to inconsistent writing.
I didn't exactly say kyp was crap in the new series but i was implying that the authors can make them "crappy" in the new series when compared to the no named sith, i know it sounds like i did but i didn't phrase my sentence properly so i think you had the wrong idea.
And what vader expert lol...
did you by any chance see the Kenobi-Maul discussion Advent and I had?
Kenobi centering himself in the force and then accomplishing something that he previously could not is a repeated phenemonon (at least in novelization) throughout the PT.
However, as Advent and I were discussing, in your opinion, does it STILL make it PIS that Kenobi was able to accomplish the victory over Maul in those conditions?
Since Kenobi has his abilities enhanced(or rather, just accomplished something illegal, such as smashing the 4 droids before killing Grievous)
4 times in the PT that i know of where it is first stated he "centered himself in the force, " or " trusted the force" or something like that.
I think what i've been trying to accomplish with all of that was to give Kenobi the credit without belittling maul. PIS would act like it had nothing to do with Kenobi's abilities that Maul lost, right? But kenobi has shown the ability to do extraordinary things at times with the force.
Throughout his confrontations with General Grievous, Kenobi surpassed "drawing" on the Force; the narration explicitly indicates that he entered a state of unity with the Force, completely submitting conscious control to it, rather like Mace Windu does with Vaapad.
As far as Maul versus Kenobi goes, yes, I would have to submit that it is PIS. Kenobi was clearly outclassed and at Maul's mercy; he didn't even reinvigorate himself and outduel the Sith after a final struggle. He went from being on the brink of death to executing a blow that, in his arrogance, Maul could not deal with.
It wasn't even that Maul was distracted. He was just, like the Emperor in Return of the Jedi, overly confident.
Originally posted by Gideon
Surprisingly, Sidious is one of the more consistent characters. We shouldn't be quick to scream PIS. As logicians, it's our job to look for a rational, cogent explanation before sweeping it under the rug.
Which would render your whole opinion on the Luke scenario 100% moot. We won't even get into your dashing contradictions and pseudo logic concerning the caedus Luke fight.
But essentially what you're saying is, a man who has the highest force potential other than Anakin, possibly the best saber duelist in the SW Mythos, who has fought Vader twice, Palpatine twice, Kun, Caedus, and many more lethal combatants, CANNOT defeat a woman who is part of a group of sith who have never, in their 5,000 years, faced anyone in combat? RIIIIIGHT. You must be trolling this week.
Originally posted by truejedi
And i have been convinced. If Maul's defeat was blatant PIS, so is Luke's strugge. I cast a 3rd vote for PIS. Not a huge believer in PIS myself really, but i guess if it can be used in other situations, i might as well use it here.
Very nice. This won't sit well with Gideon and his "I don't like Luke" agenda.
Originally posted by Gideon
😐I think (and this isn't intended to be an insult) that you're arguing out of total ignorance of the situation. Palpatine did start his fight against Leia and company on the verge of death; his entire reason for being planetside to begin with was to procure Anakin Solo as a recepticle for his dark side essence. He wasn't exactly operating on a vast timetable. Carnor Jax and members of the Imperial Interim Ruling Council sabotaged the genetic makeup of Palpatine's clones, causing them to become unnaturally frail. Everytime Palpatine subsequently would call upon the Force or indulge in great emotion, he would bring himself physically closer to death. That is why his dark side adepts attempted to stop the Jedi first, before being cutdown. His physician and adepts both agreed that it was far too dangerous for Palpatine to assume combat duty given the fact that he would only harm himself more if he continued to use the Force.
That is a far more advanced stage of poor health than Luke can claim. And no, Poppunker, it isn't up for debate.
The Revenge of the Sith novelization specifically states that Dooku is on the verge of Force exhaustion, losing coordination and physical sight, which is why he has to use what little energy remains to divide Skywalker and Kenobi; they were becoming too much for him. When he was able to separate them, he called upon the Force "and the weight of his years dropped away," rejuvenating him completely.
What's your point? Luke was in no condition to continue the fight with any sense of morality or restraint; the book makes it very clear. If he wasn't in any danger, he would have been able to. But the line itself is completely unambiguous.
@ the others:
Luke's physical condition should have had no bearing on his performance against Lady Rhea. Numerous examples have been cited of physical inferior or frail individuals who were able to use the Force in such a manner that they transcended their weakness. I'd say Yoda's natural mobility as a creature of nine centuries was more restricted than even Skywalker's at that point, and yet he was able to imbue himself with superhuman levels of agility and speed so as to force Count Dooku -- who, unlike Rhea, is established as being one of the very most powerful and skilled duelists ever -- to retreat on a planet that enhanced the Count's own prodigious abilities. Sidious, too, was in a constant state of extremely poor health; the official site makes it clear that his body was "decaying," and that "the very source of Palpatine's strength was killing him." At best, you might be able to argue that Luke, at this point, was on par with both in physical frailty (though this isn't the case).
Do you know what the tremendous difference is between Yoda and Sidious and Luke? Aside from the fact that Yoda and Sidious were in similar physical states and performed better against opponents who actually mean something in the grand scheme of things, Luke possesses an attunement to the Force beyond either of them. Consider that Anakin's own Force reserves, though he did not master them, transcended Count Dooku's own from the get-go. Though Dooku was more skilled with the Force, he could not keep up with Skywalker simply because the boy's innate strength in the Force kept him from becoming exhausted.
Numerous statements in the book made it clear: Luke was able to temporarily reverse the damage of the atrophied muscles. Page 290 specifically states that Luke drew "on the Force, pulling it into himself to enliven atrophied muscles and restore dead synapses." He also told Ben that he was feeling better every second and not once is Luke's physical condition referenced during his duel with Lady Rhea and Vestara.
The truth to the matter is that if Luke is as powerful and as skilled as you all (DS, TJ, Poppunker, ect.) say he is, then he should have performed much better against a no-name whore and her protege.
The fight at the end is an awesome demonstration of Luke's Jedi ingenuity and deceptive cunning in combat, but it's a far cry from uber Force command and lightsaber skills.
Period.
for your first point it obviously is debatable because i still think luke's condition in this book are atleast on the same level as palpatines. This is a matter of opinion though and no matter what either of us say or do that's all it will remain opinion.
your second point i get it it's just I don't understand. The way i understand force exhaustion is that he is exhausted because he's using the force and this clearly states the opposite. as to how this applies to my other argument i can't remember...........
BUT after having some time to think about this I think we just have inconsistent writing. like is he really not that great because an author didn't write him accordingly in one fight?