The NJO vs the 501st from Operation Knightfall
The jedi order and 501st are both on a well populated planet with lots of cities and people, and also lots of mountains/forests/etc, about the same amount that Earth does. The Jedi land on the north pole, the 501st on the south. Neither know exactly where the other is. Both are trying to defeat the other, and may do so in any way possible, be it by charging at the enemy or via guerrilla warfare. Who wins?
What are the rules of engagement for both sides? And how many men in the 501st at this time?
And how many Jedi are there in the order at the beginning of NJO? (peak strength, right?) Their numbers were wittled down to something like 100 by the end of NJO, but what was the peak strength? Right now there seems to be 12 Jedi Masters, and 50 Jedi Knights? (tentative source, invincible ) tentative cause there could be more Knights than that.
Anybody have numbers for all the different time periods? there are hundreds of apprentices on Ossus in LOTF as well.
hmm, FOTJ is still below the numbers from the beginning of NJO i believe.
10,000 though? versus maybe 100? Jedi wouldn't kill civilians, (that is what i meant by rules of engagement) Troopers would. Jedi go down hard. 5 stormtroopers took out Evan Piel, Jedi Council Member, so these are next to impossible odds. Luke might take out 20-25, but most of the Knights definitly couldn't handle 5. and at 10 to 1, Luke and the other Master's are toast. (if its a pitched battle) If the Jedi can divide up the 501st... then maybe, but i don't see the 501st divvying up too much.
I'm still contemplating who would win, but if the Jedi fight well then they do have a very very very good chance of winning.
Originally posted by truejedi
5 stormtroopers took out Evan Piel, Jedi Council Member, so these are next to impossible odds.
Five CLONE(this is as of Knightfall)troopers took down a council member?????!!!??!?! 😕 did they surprise him or was it a fair fight?
Originally posted by truejedi
Luke might take out 20-25, but most of the Knights definitly couldn't handle 5. and at 10 to 1, Luke and the other Master's are toast. (if its a pitched battle) If the Jedi can divide up the 501st... then maybe, but i don't see the 501st divvying up too much.
Um, no offense but didn't you say that Luke could defeat the entire CIS? Or at least an army? And yet he can only kill 20-25 clones? He could probably take 50 or so if he uses the force to just disarm them all. Um, no. Jedi Knights can't handle 5 troopers? Ben Skywalker effortlessly disarmed 6 guards through the force with a gesture.
The 501st will have to either divide up, in which case depending on how much they divide up they might get picked off in small groups, or stick together, in which case the jedi could go and hide, and it would take forever to find jedi in a whole planet with just 10,000 men.
If the jedi are stupid and made stupid choices, then they die. But if they play very well and don't mess up, then they'll probably win.
But don't you think that it's a little sad that the ENTIRE Jedi Order, one of the most famous organizations in galactic history that contributed greatly to many wars and to the wellbeing of society, made up of people with superhuman abilites thanks to the force, can't beat a single legion in a head on battle?
Let's be sensible here.
The 501st is essentially the most badass collection of troopers this side of Boba Fett and co. I realize that there is a segment of individuals who operate under the impression that the new Jedi Order > the old Jedi Order simply by the merit of Luke Skywalker's presence and teachings, but the truth is? It's not even close. With the exception of notable standouts, Luke's Jedi are a motley collection of wannabes operating on pitiful scraps of leftover information that Palpatine apparently left around for lulz. The Jedi of the prequel trilogy are the heirs of a millennium of training, cohesive study, and dilligence. And before people freak out and say "well they didn't fight!", the Revenge of the Sith novelization makes it very clear that the Jedi spent the past thousand years training like their predecessors, which left them woefully unprepared for the deceitful tactics of Bane's revamped Order.
The Jedi of the prequel trilogy numbered ten thousand and defeated an extremely lethal enemy force numbering in the quadrillions.
The Jedi of Luke's order numbered in the few hundreds and... survived a couple of wars.
If the 501st could take down the Jedi at the heart of the Temple, which is according to numerous sources a Force nexus and a focusing mechanism for the Force itself, they would hand Luke and company their asses.
/argument
Originally posted by Gideon
The 501st is essentially the most badass collection of troopers this side of Boba Fett and co.
That's true, the 501st are pretty powerful.
Originally posted by Gideon
I realize that there is a segment of individuals who operate under the impression that the new Jedi Order > the old Jedi Order simply by the merit of Luke Skywalker's presence and teachings, but the truth is? It's not even close. With the exception of notable standouts, Luke's Jedi are a motley collection of wannabes operating on pitiful scraps of leftover information that Palpatine apparently left around for lulz. The Jedi of the prequel trilogy are the heirs of a millennium of training, cohesive study, and dilligence. And before people freak out and say "well they didn't fight!", the Revenge of the Sith novelization makes it very clear that the Jedi spent the past thousand years training like their predecessors, which left them woefully unprepared for the deceitful tactics of Bane's revamped Order.
Well the old jedi order was like 10,000, and I don't think that count includes apprentices or at least not younglings and such. So yeah, in a fight the OJO would win so easily it's not even funny. Individually I'm not sure, but as a whole the numbers of the OJO make them a formidable opponent compared to the NJO.
Originally posted by GideonThe Jedi of the prequel trilogy numbered ten thousand and defeated an extremely lethal enemy force numbering in the quadrillions.
...
They didn't "defeat" the battle droids. The war wasn't ever really concluded, since the entire thing was just a ploy. They fought the droids on about even footing WITH the help of a clone army that was considered to be one of the most powerful armies ever created. The GAR probably did more to help than the Jedi. Not saying that the Jedi weren't a factor; they certainly helped, but it's not like as if they fought the war on their own, or else they would've been slaughtered.
Originally posted by Gideon
The Jedi of Luke's order numbered in the few hundreds and... survived a couple of wars.
What? At least they survived and even helped defeat the Vong, the Old Jedi Order DIED.
Originally posted by GideonIf the 501st could take down the Jedi at the heart of the Temple, which is according to numerous sources a Force nexus and a focusing mechanism for the Force itself, they would hand Luke and company their asses.
/argument
Dude remember that this battle rages across the entire planet, so there's no need for the Jedi to stupidly charge at a 10,000 man army with only 200 or so guys. It's called guerrilla warfare. Think the Taliban, only that they're good guys and have supernatural powers.
And also remember your first statement (please be sensible...in this case to other's feelings). No need to respond to this with insults or anything like that. Just respond with logic, please.
Five CLONE(this is as of Knightfall)troopers took down a council member?????!!!??!?! 😕 did they surprise him or was it a fair fight?
It was pretty much a fair fight. They followed him into a building, he tried to run, they threw grenades at him, he pushed some of them back, couldn't block them all, and died.
Um, no offense but didn't you say that Luke could defeat the entire CIS? Or at least an army? And yet he can only kill 20-25 clones?
The reason he could take the CIS doesn't fit these circumstances. And i never said the entire CIS, with all of its droids: the thread asked if he could beat all the regular battle droids. THAT is what i said he could do.
He could beat the droids by cloaking himself and then taking them out one by one with the force. Since he is the only combatant, they wouldn't even know where to shoot at. In a battle with the stormtroopers, luke would find it necessary to try to protect his other Jedi, and he would have to reveal himself to do that.
If he didn't reveal himself, the multiple enemies on the battlefield would have blaster bolts flying around, putting luke in a much more precarious situation than i envisioned with the CIS.
The reason i said he would beat the CIS was because i couldn't think of one scenario where the droids would be able to counter a cloaked attack from luke. In this situation, i see all kinds of ways luke could still die.
The 501st will have to either divide up, in which case depending on how much they divide up they might get picked off in small groups, or stick together, in which case the jedi could go and hide, and it would take forever to find jedi in a whole planet with just 10,000 men.
You said a battle, you didn't say the Jedi go and hide. This isn't the 501st hunting the Jedi, it is the Jedi and 501st fighting.
If the Jedi go and hide, and the 501st divides up to hunt them down, then yes, the jedi win, but the 501st is under no obligation to hunt anyone down.
The jedi go and hide, the 501st just wait. They haven't lost a fight at that point. The Jedi are under the same time-constraints as the 501st.
But don't you think that it's a little sad that the ENTIRE Jedi Order, one of the most famous organizations in galactic history that contributed greatly to many wars and to the wellbeing of society, made up of people with superhuman abilites thanks to the force, can't beat a single legion in a head on battle?
This is a TINY jedi order compared to what we saw in the PT. The number are overwhelming. See, even if a trooper fires and misses, his shot might hit another jedi. The firepower the 501st could turn on the Jedi in an open-field fight would just be overwhelming. If i were the 501st commander,i would take some hostages, i would find an open field, park the 501st, and send out word that hostages would be killed every hour till the Jedi come to take them from me. Then when they attacked, i'd mow them down.
HWKA...They didn't "defeat" the battle droids. The war wasn't ever really concluded, since the entire thing was just a ploy. They fought the droids on about even footing WITH the help of a clone army that was considered to be one of the most powerful armies ever created. The GAR probably did more to help than the Jedi. Not saying that the Jedi weren't a factor; they certainly helped, but it's not like as if they fought the war on their own, or else they would've been slaughtered.
You're right. Three million clones certainly evens out the scale. Mace and Yoda have obliterated batallions of Confederacy infantry and heavy artillery alone. Hell, Kazdan Paratus defeated "legions" of CIS droids singlehandedly.
Jedi > clones > droids.
Doesn't matter, though. Because you're right, the clones were badass. The Jedi during Knightfall were locked in the Temple; which is (again) a focusing mechanism for the Force. Not to mention the hometurf advantage. And they still lost.
I should hardly think that Jedi know more about guerilla warfare than... um... combat specialists and highly trained troopers.
Originally posted by Gideon
If the 501st could take down the Jedi at the heart of the Temple, which is according to numerous sources a Force nexus and a focusing mechanism for the Force itself, they would hand Luke and company their asses./argument
one thing there Gideon, i was under the impression that Anakin took down the majority of skilled jedi defending the temple. The clones mopped up. He killed Cin Drillig, and the apprentice guarding the younglings, and then the clones killed the younglings, according to the novelization. Plus, there was only a handful of Jedi in the temple anyway, according to all sources. The 501'sts victory at Hoth was imo, more impressive than their victory over the jedi in the temple.
Also, the fight at kashykk, was also impressive.
Originally posted by Gideon
You're right. Three million clones certainly evens out the scale. Mace and Yoda have obliterated batallions of Confederacy infantry and heavy artillery alone. Hell, Kazdan Paratus defeated "legions" of CIS droids singlehandedly.
Batalions consists of how many troops again? Now compare that proportionally to a quadrillion. And yes, the clones DID help a lot, or else there wouldn't be a need for the GAR. Kazdan Paratus defeated legionS of CIS droids but LUKE and all of the NJO go down "hard" against ONE (admittingly badass) legion?
Originally posted by Gideon
Jedi > clones > droids.
Let's do the math here. Let's say that there were about 200 jedi as of FOTJ. That's 2% of the old jedi order. 10,000 is 0.1666...% of the three million man clone army. Therefore, if the jedi > clones, then 2% of the jedi (who are arguably as strong, or at least almost as strong, when you factor in Luke/Kyp/Corran/Kyle/Cilghal/Kam/Jaina/etc.) > 0.1666...% of the GAR. The badassness of the 501st isn't enough to make up for it.
Of course, war is not mathematical equations, so that's just EDUCATED speculation.
Oh, Lord.
Droids and clones aren't the same thing. The fact that the Jedi were capable of defeating legions of Confederacy droids simultaneously does not mean that they could necessarily do the same with the clones. Clones fight in a completely different style; they're far more clever and resourceful than Dooku's forces. The 501st is, according to the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, "the best the galaxy had to offer." They obliterated the Jedi at their height and continued, under Vader's direction, to hunt the Jedi for twenty years.
As a point of fact, they were also terribly badass enough to cow the Mandalorians in a Karen Traviss novel.
😐
Suffice it to say that when it comes to war, the clones are far more proficient than the Jedi. It's what they live for. Jedi are diplomats first, fighters second. Clones are smarter, better trained, more resourceful, and they do not play fair.
Especially if it's a guerilla campaign and they don't have to fight close quarters, which is just as much an advantage for them as it is the Jedi.