The NJO vs the 501st from Operation Knightfall

1. Maybe

2. In this scenario, nothing says that the clones would be shooting at the same time either. The jedi could effectively take out small pockets of clones, since the clones would likely split up at least within a city in order to search/defend. Not all 10,000 would be in one big group.

3. True, but even in the Clone Wars series clone troopers have been mind tricked, like how one was tricked by Ventress in the Clone Wars movie, albeit he wasn't an Arc or 501st trooper.

4. The jedi in the temple were mainly younglings and a few teachers, and they had no idea that the clones were going to attack. Luke knows in this battle that the clones are trying to kill him, and vice versa.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall

2. In this scenario, nothing says that the clones would be shooting at the same time either. The jedi could effectively take out small pockets of clones, since the clones would likely split up at least within a city in order to search/defend. Not all 10,000 would be in one big group.

thats what you assume. any tactical commander that is taught in the ways of strategy wouldnt be so foolish. if i was in charge of the clones i wouldnt have my clones separate because i know that more often then not i need multiple clones in order to take down one jedi. i would split the clones into 10 battalions the first 9 consisting of 1000 troops the last one consisting of 200 which would be made up of 200. the 10th battalion would be in charge of reconnaissance /scouting and that is the division that would be broken up into three man squads designed to scout out the enemy. that division would be in constant communication at all times so if they get KIA the larger battalions will know exactly where the enemy is and can flood en masse.

3. True, but even in the Clone Wars series clone troopers have been mind tricked, like how one was tricked by Ventress in the Clone Wars movie, albeit he wasn't an Arc or 501st trooper.

theres a difference between mind tricking a single person and mind tricking an entire army from three miles away.

4. The jedi in the temple were mainly younglings and a few teachers, and they had no idea that the clones were going to attack. Luke knows in this battle that the clones are trying to kill him, and vice versa. [/B]

but he doesnt know when how or where they are going to strike from.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
thats what you assume. any tactical commander that is taught in the ways of strategy wouldnt be so foolish. if i was in charge of the clones i wouldnt have my clones separate because i know that more often then not i need multiple clones in order to take down one jedi. i would split the clones into 10 battalions the first 9 consisting of 1000 troops the last one consisting of 200 which would be made up of 200. the 10th battalion would be in charge of reconnaissance /scouting and that is the division that would be broken up into three man squads designed to scout out the enemy. that division would be in constant communication at all times so if they get KIA the larger battalions will know exactly where the enemy is and can flood en masse.

theres a difference between mind tricking a single person and mind tricking an entire army from three miles away.

but he doesnt know when how or where they are going to strike from.

And guess what? 1000 troops would fall easily to 200 jedi. So they could still get picked off easily.

They don't need to trick the army, just the leader. And the clone that ventress tricked was a captain, albeit not a general/commander. Wait...wasn't it Rex that she tricked? And Rex is pretty strong willed. After you trick the leader, you can just trick him into ordering his troops to surrender.

Neither do the clones.

And about your earlier post, the jedi could use the force to snatch the shotgun from your hand.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
And guess what? 1000 troops would fall easily to 200 jedi.

and if all 200 jedi were in one spot the remaining 8000 clones would be there before the real fighting would even begin.

They don't need to trick the army, just the leader.

ventress got to the leader by fighting her way through all of his soldiers that were protecting him first off. second off if a commander is deemed unfit for battle mentally he can be relieved. a clone doesnt have to follow his superior officers order if its obviously assinine. such as surrendering for zero reason at all. clones arent stupid.

Neither do the clones.

yeah but clones are actual soldiers and think like actual soldiers. jedi arent. they dont think up things like mass army surprise attacks, ambushes and total warfare.

And about your earlier post, the jedi could use the force to snatch the shotgun from your hand. [/B]

like they do everytime they fight peopel with guns? the same way those jedi snatched the shotguns from those droids before they were killed? oh yeah they didnt. 😐

i can twitch my finger and pull a trigger faster then a jedi can focus on my gun to take it from me.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
nah they wouldnt. see the geonosis arena battle for reference.

and if all 200 jedi were in one spot the remaining 8000 clones would be there before the real fighting would even begin.

ventress got to the leader by fighting her way through all of his soldiers that were protecting him first off. second off if a commander is deemed unfit for battle mentally he can be relieved. a clone doesnt have to follow his superior officers order if its obviously assinine. such as surrendering for zero reason at all. clones arent stupid.

yeah but clones are actual soldiers and think like actual soldiers. jedi arent. they dont think up things like mass army surprise attacks, ambushes and total warfare.

like they do everytime they fight peopel with guns? the same way those jedi snatched the shotguns from those droids before they were killed? oh yeah they didnt. 😐

i can twitch my finger and pull a trigger faster then a jedi can focus on my gun to take it from me.

Are you sure that it was 8000 clones? And even then, the 8000 clones had AT-TEs, artillery and LAAT Gunships. And 8000 > 1000.

Dude, the clones were trained to obey any order without hesitation! That's the entire reason why Order 66 was successful: a lot of clones such as Commander Cody were close friends and comrades with jedi (such as Obi Wan), and yet they obeyed it without hesitation. In other words, they blindly followed orders. That's the entire reason why Palapatine had the army be made up of clones: regular troops would question the order to slaughter the jedi that had heroically fought alongside them, but these clones were genetically altered and conditioned from birth to follow orders AT ANY COST.

You're thinking these things, and yet you aren't a soldier. Jedi aren't stupid, and many of them (Luke, Kyle, Kenth, etc.) once SERVED in the army, sometimes as GENERALS. How else did they effectively wage war against and DEFEAT the GA in the Second Galactic Civil War? They didn't do it by being stupid.

Actually, there are numerous examples of where jedi would disarm their opponents with the force. However, often times they are outnumbered like 20 to 1, so they don't have the time to concentrate and disarm them all. And no you can't, because the jedi have precognition, allowing them to sense when/where you will do it and act beforehand (this is how they deflect blaster bolts). Plus, they have years and years of training on you, so their reflexes are lightyears ahead of you.

...is this a joke? Do you really think that YOU can kill a jedi?

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
i have a couple problems with the logic here.

Alrighty then, lets have a look.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
1. id say that a single clone is worth at least two or three NR soldiers myself.

Exactly what I pointed out. This accounts for the eliteness of the 501st when comparing numbers to numbers. Thank you for your agreement.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
2. how many of those vong soldiers were actively shooting at luke at the same time? how many were chucking grenades, firing shrapnel weapons, and heavy artillery? how many were taking cover and using civilians and buildings as cover?

The Vong didn't just take cover behind civilians, they would actively kill civilians in order to make it harder for the Jedi to attack the Jedi to attack them (busy defending civilians). Obviously you're pretty ignorant of the way that the Vong fought. They used amphistaffs, which lightsabers couldn't cut through. The amphistaffs shot venom up to 20 meters. They used snap bugs, razor bugs, thud bugs, and blast bugs that could easily kill people from distance. They used Rakamat's and Thrall Herders. Everything the Clones have the Vong had too. They were at least as an effective army, probably better equipped.

[QUOTE=12196095]Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
[B]3. those clones were not made by the kamino people and were not trained by jango fett. they also did not have the mental toughness of jango fett either. whose to say that the 501st could be as easily manipulated on a grand scale?

The precedent is that they would be able to be manipulated. Nothing in the Thrawn novels gives the reader any reason to believe that it was specific to one particular type of Clone. As for mind control, its effectiveness is determined by experience, not genetics. The Clones, with so many similar minds, would be easily controlled because there is so many similar minds.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
also. how many of those clones controlled by joruus were attacking from three thousand meters away?

How do you see the Clones effectively attacking Jedi from three thousand meters away? It shouldn't be too much of an issue though, as Joruus was capable of controlling clones easily from anywhere on an ISD. This is 1600 meters across, so from far outside the attack ranger of anything but long-range artillery. Also, the range may be much farther, as Joruus was able to control the troops at the Wayland Cloning facility, which was massive as well.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
4. the OP states that the clones are on one side of the earth while the jedi are on the other. so how can you say that the clones cant launch a surprise attack? according to some canon source i heard the majority of the jedi that were killed in order 66 didnt sense the clones turning on them because the clones didnt have murderous thoughts or intent. they were only following orders. so that being the case its not like luke will be able to sense them before the launch their attack no?

The Jedi trusted the Clones who attacked them. The NJO Jedi are expecting the Clones to fight them to the death. Obviously they aren't going to just let them stand behind them with blasters pointed at their backs like the PT Jedi did. Come on, I thought you were smarter than this.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
id say that the average PT jedi padawan is probably much stronger then the average NJO padawan considering the PT was the pinnacle of the orders wisdom and technique.

Who cares what happens with the padawans? What we do know is the following, which you failed to address in your previous post:

*During that Battle of Dantooine, Anakin and Jacen fought through hundreds of Vong soliders and the slave creatures (can't remember their names). They were still far from the most powerful members of the Jedi Order at that point.

*Luke killed hundreds, if not thousands of Vong during the sixth Battle of Coruscant in TUF.

*The Myrk Striketeam, consisting of 16 Jedi, no Masters, killed tons of Vong and the Voxyn Queen.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Exactly what I pointed out. This accounts for the eliteness of the 501st when comparing numbers to numbers. Thank you for your agreement.

sorry. i misunderstood you.

The precedent is that they would be able to be manipulated. Nothing in the Thrawn novels gives the reader any reason to believe that it was specific to one particular type of Clone. As for mind control, its effectiveness is determined by experience, not genetics. The Clones, with so many similar minds, would be easily controlled because there is so many similar minds.

where does that last statement come from? that its based off of experience? ive never heard that before.

How do you see the Clones effectively attacking Jedi from three thousand meters away? It shouldn't be too much of an issue though, as Joruus was capable of controlling clones easily from anywhere on an ISD. This is 1600 meters across, so from far outside the attack ranger of anything but long-range artillery. Also, the range may be much farther, as Joruus was able to control the troops at the Wayland Cloning facility, which was massive as well.

i was hoping you'd ask that question. 😄

The DC-15 could interface with the helmets of clones to provide a video gunsight on the clone trooper's helmet display. Mounted on a tripod, the maximum effective range of a DC-15A was 10 kilometers. On maximum power, a shot from a DC-15A could leave a 0.5 meter hole in any ferroconcrete wall; however, firing at maximum power caused a greater rate power consumption, reducing the number of shots per power pack from 100 to 10 rounds.

as someone who has been studying military tactics with a passion since i was 11 years old i can think of many ways to utilize a 10 kilometer range advantage on a force that can only hurt you if youre close to them. you realize that the clones dont even have to be in the same city as the jedi to attack them?

but let me guess. somehow these jedi are going to be able to deflect two thousand synchronized shots coming from multiple directions at the same time correct? all two thousand shots made by clones three miles away? theyre going to sense the fact that someone is shooting at them from miles away, and theyll know exactly where the bolts are going to land and deflect them, right?

The Jedi trusted the Clones who attacked them.

that has nothing to do with anything though. according to the actual sources the only reason why they were unable to detect them for the most part is because jedi sense danger through ill intent. if someone attacks them with zero maliciousness in their heart its harder to recognize it as a threat.

ill look for where i heard that from.

*During that Battle of Dantooine, Anakin and Jacen fought through hundreds of Vong soliders and the slave creatures (can't remember their names). They were still far from the most powerful members of the Jedi Order at that point.

*Luke killed hundreds, if not thousands of Vong during the sixth Battle of Coruscant in TUF.

*The Myrk Striketeam, consisting of 16 Jedi, no Masters, killed tons of Vong and the Voxyn Queen.

The Vong didn't just take cover behind civilians, they would actively kill civilians in order to make it harder for the Jedi to attack the Jedi to attack them (busy defending civilians). Obviously you're pretty ignorant of the way that the Vong fought. They used amphistaffs, which lightsabers couldn't cut through. The amphistaffs shot venom up to 20 meters. They used snap bugs, razor bugs, thud bugs, and blast bugs that could easily kill people from distance. They used Rakamat's and Thrall Herders. Everything the Clones have the Vong had too. They were at least as an effective army, probably better equipped.

inferior technology makes them a small threat. theres a reason why the vong were scared shitless of palpatine and his army.

Inferior technology? think again! it took the New Republic YEARS of war to catch up with the tech advantage the Vong had. The early engagements were all massacres by the Vong.

really?

can you point out an infantry level highly mobile weapon the vong have that can hit a target 10 kilometers awaya nd leave burning foot and half holes in said targets?

it took the new republic that long because the new republic is retarded and its military suffers from that.

You are really going to say that clone troopers are going to win a battle solely with sniper rifles? I think the clones will win, but not solely with sniper rifles. Plus, where is your evidence that every clone, or even 2000 clones in the 501st CARRIES a sniper rifle?

its not a sniper rifle.

"the DC-15A blaster rifle was the weapon of choice for the Republic's clone troopers in the Grand Army of the Republic. It was a larger, more powerful long-range alternative to the DC-15S blaster. This was one of the standard issue weapons for clones."

its a regular old assault rifle like the M16 is. only difference is that the range of this assault rifle happens to be 10 kilometers.

so what was the E-11 all about?

its the SMG equivalent. smaller, more compact. easier to maintain due to its size. assault rifles are used for open warfare and distant firefights. submachine guns are used for urban combat. close quarters and the like. because the clone wars was an open warfare theater it required the use of a long range assault weapon that could function well in the elements and in forests and fields and stuff. after the clones wars ended there was no open war and the Empire had to start equipping its soldiers with urban/close quarter weapons. think of it in this way: we had certain types of weapons in WWII that were designed to function in rough terrains and fields and stuff because thats where the fighting took place. now we're righting in iraq and most of the fighting is with terrorists inside buildings and on tight city streets. so we had to change our weapons to compensate for that.

the republic went from a military fighting another military on a field to an empire fighting terrorists in abandoned factories and underground hideouts.

hmmm... well, that is pretty interesting. Pathetic tactics by the Jedi to have them always go face to face with the droids then...

Did you ever read the NJO books?

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
sorry. i misunderstood you.

It's all good in the neighborhood. 🙂

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
where does that last statement come from? that its based off of experience? ive never heard that before.

So basically after the difference in species difficulty (reason its so difficult to control Hutts and Toydarians) is people's individual resistance to it. In KOTOR 2 the soldiers attacking the building on Dantooine were able to resist mind control because they had training against it.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
i was hoping you'd ask that question. 😄

The DC-15 could interface with the helmets of clones to provide a video gunsight on the clone trooper's helmet display. Mounted on a tripod, the maximum effective range of a DC-15A was [b]10 kilometers. On maximum power, a shot from a DC-15A could leave a 0.5 meter hole in any ferroconcrete wall; however, firing at maximum power caused a greater rate power consumption, reducing the number of shots per power pack from 100 to 10 rounds.

as someone who has been studying military tactics with a passion since i was 11 years old i can think of many ways to utilize a 10 kilometer range advantage on a force that can only hurt you if youre close to them. you realize that the clones dont even have to be in the same city as the jedi to attack them? [/B]

Wow, that must be a really, really small city. BTW, you left out that the DC-15A has to be mounted on a tripod to achieve that range (drastically limiting mobility) and that it only gets ten shot before needing a new power pack at that range. It was also stated to be very inaccurate.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
but let me guess. somehow these jedi are going to be able to deflect two thousand synchronized shots coming from multiple directions at the same time correct? all two thousand shots made by clones three miles away? theyre going to sense the fact that someone is shooting at them from miles away, and theyll know exactly where the bolts are going to land and deflect them, right?

The guns are inaccurate. They aren't going to be able to surround the Jedi (who can move FAR faster than the Clones). They are going to have their minds controlled before they can pull the trigger.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
that has nothing to do with anything though. according to the actual sources the only reason why they were unable to detect them for the most part is because jedi sense danger through ill intent. if someone attacks them with zero maliciousness in their heart its harder to recognize it as a threat.

ill look for where i heard that from.

The Jedi spent years fighting an enemy they couldn't sense in the Force at all. The Clones are detectable.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
inferior technology makes them a small threat. theres a reason why the vong were scared shitless of palpatine and his army.

The Vong were not scarred of the 501st. They were afraid of the Imperial Navy which consisted of 25,000 ISD's as well as a thousand support ships for every one of those. They were afraid of the Galaxy Gun, World Decimators, Death Stars, Eclipse Battle Ships, and things like that. Numerical superiority on the Empire's part would screw them. The Empire had WAY more men than the New Republic, not better on a one-on-one basis.

Given that we already established that a Vong is roughly equal to a 501st member, we can see that Luke killing hundreds, if not thousands of Vong on Coruscant is very telling that the 501st is screwed. Jacen killed hundreds during the beginning of the war. Ganner killed an incredible amount during his last stand. During the Killick Crisis we saw Jedi like Leia diverting the guns of a dozen security guys with guns with a flick of her hand. You are severely underestimating the Jedi, I think.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
[B]Did you ever read the NJO books?

one. 😐 im very ignorant in that regard.

So basically after the difference in species difficulty (reason its so difficult to control Hutts and Toydarians) is people's individual resistance to it. In KOTOR 2 the soldiers attacking the building on Dantooine were able to resist mind control because they had training against it.

i thought it had to do specifically with the strength of someones mind. I.E. their willpower. mmm

Wow, that must be a really, really small city.

not really. san francisco is considered a relatively large city but its only about 7 miles long. im at my cousins house house in oakland and i could hit someone who lives in san francisco.

BTW, you left out that the DC-15A has to be mounted on a tripod to achieve that range (drastically limiting mobility)

drastically? no. tripods are all collapsible. my uncle was an automatic rifleman in the army and he had a SAW with a tripod. he said that he was trained to retrieve the tripod from his pack unfold it and attach it to his weapon in under 15 seconds. if the clones are 5 miles away they have a lot more then 15 seconds to do this. when the tripod is collapsed it weighs almost nothing. this allows a heavy weapons user to function with the same mobility as a rifleman.

The guns are inaccurate.

It was also stated to be very inaccurate.

theyre inaccurate past 10 kilometers. do you know what "effective range" means in reference to a gun? it means the distance a gun shoots before it becomes the inaccuracy messes with the shot. an AK-47 has a maximum range of 800 meters depending on its scope. but the effective range of an ak-47 is only 300 meters. that means it becomes greatly inaccurate past 300 meters.

and that it only gets ten shot before needing a new power pack at that range.

according to the article youre looking at it says that using the gun at maximum power results in more damage. it does not say that maximum power results in greater range. look closely at the sentence structure there.

They aren't going to be able to surround the Jedi (who can move FAR faster than the Clones). They are going to have their minds controlled before they can pull the trigger.

no theyre not.

The Jedi spent years fighting an enemy they couldn't sense in the Force at all. The Clones are detectable.

vong arent clones. theyre inferior.

The Vong were not scarred of the 501st. They were afraid of the Imperial Navy which consisted of 25,000 ISD's as well as a thousand support ships for every one of those. They were afraid of the Galaxy Gun, World Decimators, Death Stars, Eclipse Battle Ships, and things like that. Numerical superiority on the Empire's part would screw them. The Empire had WAY more men than the New Republic, not better on a one-on-one basis.

true. but the clones were much better then the NR soldiers 1 on 1.

Given that we already established that a Vong is roughly equal to a 501st member,

theyre not. inferior technology and inferior tactics.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
theyre not. inferior technology and inferior tactics.

no. 😛

im only going off of what uve heard about vong weaponry and hoping its factual. as i told glentract im very ignorant when it comes to the njo.

EDIT- i only did a little bit of research. the ampihstaff is the primary weapon of the vong. its a melee weapon that can shoot poison up to 60 feet. its highly inferior to a DC-15A rifle. because that is there primary weapon that would mean that their strategies reovlve around them getting clone enough to attack with their weapons. that alone means they use inferior battle tactics. any tactic that involves getting close to a jedi is inferior to a tactic that involves keeping a distance.

Originally posted by truejedi
hmmm... well, that is pretty interesting. Pathetic tactics by the Jedi to have them always go face to face with the droids then...

yeah. there is a reason why the jedi were drastically drastically drastically weakened by the clone wars. 😛

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
no. 😛

im only going off of what uve heard about vong weaponry and hoping its factual. as i told glentract im very ignorant when it comes to the njo.

EDIT- i only did a little bit of research. the ampihstaff is the primary weapon of the vong. its a melee weapon that can shoot poison up to 60 feet. its highly inferior to a DC-15A rifle. because that is there primary weapon that would mean that their strategies reovlve around them getting clone enough to attack with their weapons. that alone means they use inferior battle tactics. any tactic that involves getting close to a jedi is inferior to a tactic that involves keeping a distance.

So yeah, melee-wise, ground combat... the Vong kinda suck (from what I know, I haven't invested much time in the NJO series either). But technology-wise as a whole, they're not bad.