Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
there is no possible way the jedi can win this. in the words of mace jedi are keepers of the peace not soldiers. jedi are no match for clones in an open warfare environment when it comes to tactics and resolve.numerical superiority+trained fighting force+better equipment= jedi defeat 10/10.
If the Jedi can resurrect Revan then, they would definitely win and become a new Sith nation.
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
So a clone trooper would beat a jedi in a fight?
depends on the fight depends on the jedi depends on the clone.
If the Jedi can resurrect Revan then, they would definitely win and become a new Sith nation.
revan makes me lol.
It's interesting how in PoD, each sith lord was considered to be more powerful than an ENTIRE DIVISION of normal troops. And yet here people think that Luke is only worth about 20 clones, and each knight 5???
thats because there are no collective soldiers in the entire mythos that are better then the clones.
Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
depends on the fight depends on the jedi depends on the clone.
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An average Padawan > any type of clone execpt MAYBE Arc. To think that any clone trooper could beat a Jedi Master is just...not right. Yoda and Obi Wan took down a lot more than 2 clones when they penetrated the jedi temple.
Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
thats because there are no collective soldiers in the entire mythos that are better then the clones.
So one clone trooper > a division of troopers? Sure, the sith troopers in PoD are 1000 years behind in tech, but even a division of swordsmen would take down one clone.
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
[B]An average Padawan > any type of clone execpt MAYBE Arc. To think that any clone trooper could beat a Jedi Master is just...not right. Yoda and Obi Wan took down a lot more than 2 clones when they penetrated the jedi temple.
not really. with the proper weapons and intel i could kill a jedi master the same way one droid armed with only a gun killed two masters by itself at the same time.
So one clone trooper > a division of troopers? Sure, the sith troopers in PoD are 1000 years behind in tech, but even a division of swordsmen would take down one clone.
i dont think you understand what im saying.
Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
not really. with the proper weapons and intel i could kill a jedi master the same way one droid armed with only a gun killed two masters by itself at the same time.
When did that droid kill 2 masters? Where?
I'm sure that you can come up with a scenario in which the clone kills the master, yes, but 99.99% of the time the master comes out on top.
Originally posted by Ms.Marveli dont think you understand what im saying.
No, I don't. Can you please explain? (no sarcasm intended here)
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
When did that droid kill 2 masters? Where?
dark rendezvous.
I'm sure that you can come up with a scenario in which the clone kills the master, yes, but 99.99% of the time the master comes out on top.
thats the point. clones are tactical fighters. if they know theyre target is jedi, who are individually stronger then a clone, theyll make a scenario in which they can use their lager numbers and better training to win. jedi are not battlefield tactical thinkers. theyre not used to thinking up plans against armies.
but regardless jedi dont even win in most scenarios. as i said i could kill a master by myself and i have no real combat training. but i do know how to use a 12 gauge and i know how to properly use a grenade. thats all id need.
No, I don't. Can you please explain? (no sarcasm intended here) [/B]
there is no army that is better trained then the clone army when it comes to warfare. not only do they have the reflexes and skills of jango fett but they were also trained by him. what non-force sensitives do you know int he star wars mythos who are > jango fett?
Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
dark rendezvous.
What happened exactly?
Originally posted by Ms.Marvelthats the point. clones are tactical fighters. if they know theyre target is jedi, who are individually stronger then a clone, theyll make a scenario in which they can use their lager numbers and better training to win. jedi are not battlefield tactical thinkers. theyre not used to thinking up plans against armies.
You have a point, but the jedi are no idiots either, considering that Luke, Kenth, Leia, Corran, Kyle, and I'm pretty sure several others served in the army, some as GENERALS, who typically know more about that kind of stuff than grunts.
Originally posted by Ms.Marvelbut regardless jedi dont even win in most scenarios. as i said i could kill a master by myself and i have no real combat training. but i do know how to use a 12 gauge and i know how to properly use a grenade. thats all id need.
😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 🤣 🤣
Originally posted by Ms.Marvelthere is no [b]army
that is better trained then the clone army when it comes to warfare. not only do they have the reflexes and skills of jango fett but they were also trained by him. what non-force sensitives do you know int he star wars mythos who are > jango fett? [/B]
I talked about PoD saying how one sith lord (which is about = a jedi master) is worth more than a division of troops, and then you countered by saying that the clones are better skilled. Since we were just talking about whether or not a clone can beat a jedi, logically I'd assume that you meant that one clone could beat a sith lord/jedi master, which is ridiculous.
And Boba Fett is probably better than Jango given his superior experience.
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
What happened exactly?jtwo masters+yoda walking through a building. ventress+ a battledroid armed with a shotgun attack them. yoda battles ventress while the two masters attack the droid, which stands in one spot. it literally doesnt move. it standso ne spot and fires its shotgun at the masters. because jedi cant deflect shrapnel with their lightsabers the two masters die.
You have a point, but the jedi are no idiots either, considering that Luke, Kenth, Leia, Corran, Kyle, and I'm pretty sure several others served in the army, some as GENERALS, who typically know more about that kind of stuff than grunts.luke is an idiot. when has he ever devised a battle strategy that allowed him to lead his forces victory. also most of those people were civilians before they became rebels. they werent born[/i] soldiers and taught strategy and military doctorine [u]their entire lives.
[quote]😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 🤣 🤣
prove me wrong.
I talked about PoD saying how one sith lord (which is about = a jedi master) is worth more than a division of troops, and then you countered by saying that the clones are better skilled. Since we were just talking about whether or not a clone can beat a jedi, logically I'd assume that you meant that one clone could beat a sith lord/jedi master, which is ridiculous.
right.
And Boba Fett is probably better than Jango given his superior experience. [/B]
and boba is... a clone of jango! thus proving my point. 😱
Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
luke is an idiot. when has he ever devised a battle strategy that allowed him to lead his forces victory. also most of those people were civilians before they became rebels. they werent born[/i] soldiers and taught strategy and military doctorine [u]their entire lives.
Luke was a GENERAL in the army, and oh yeah he came up with the plan to kill Caedus.
Originally posted by Ms.Marvelprove me wrong.
Yoda and Obi Wan killed lots of clones when they infiltrated the temple.
In the brief scenes in ROTS of Knightfall where that jedi was being surrounded by several clones, you can see several dead clones surrounding him, showing that he had taken down lots of them even when surrounded.
That padawan who looked like a young boy (forgot his name, wasn't he only TEN?) that tried to escape when Bail arrived took down several clones.
The jedi LEAD the clones.
etc. etc.
Originally posted by Ms.Marveland boba is... a clone of jango! thus proving my point. 😱
Notice how before you asked NON-force sensitive. That means that force sensitives can beat him.
Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
luke is an idiot. when has he ever devised a battle strategy that allowed him to lead his forces victory. also most of those people were civilians before they became rebels. they werent born[/i] soldiers and taught strategy and military doctorine [u]their entire lives.prove me wrong.
right.
and boba is... a clone of jango! thus proving my point. 😱
Ms. marvel, if i might, It was actually Assaji that killed the Jedi Master, Yoda escaped. So the droid killed one master, not two, and even then, the second master didn't die until she used her life-force to re-seal the canopy of the space station.
Also, can you post the relevant passage? I was under the impression there were several droids. I know for a fact that there were at least 2 present. Not that they both attacked the masters.
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Luke was a GENERAL in the army, and oh yeah he came up with the plan to kill Caedus.
he was made a general because he destroyed the death star not because he was a tactical genius. and killing one man does not equate to defeating an army.
Yoda and Obi Wan killed lots of clones when they infiltrated the temple.In the brief scenes in ROTS of Knightfall where that jedi was being surrounded by several clones, you can see several dead clones surrounding him, showing that he had taken down lots of them even when surrounded.
That padawan who looked like a young boy (forgot his name, wasn't he only TEN?) that tried to escape when Bail arrived took down several clones.
what does this have to do with anything ive said?
The jedi LEAD the clones.
they lead them because they individually are stronger. a common theme throughout the clone wars EU is that though the jedi are in charge and are good fighters many of them dont think like soldiers do which is why they have a distance from the clones.
Notice how before you asked NON-force sensitive. That means that force sensitives can beat him. [/B]
thats exactly said. i said that the clones are the best soldiers in the mythos because theyre cloned from the greatest soldier in the mythos. so what do you do? as an example you list a clone who could beat him? so how does that go against what i said?
Originally posted by truejedi
Ms. marvel, if i might, It was actually Assaji that killed the Jedi Master, Yoda escaped. So the droid killed one master, not two, and even then, the second master didn't die until she used her life-force to re-seal the canopy of the space station.
but she couldnt fight back. both masters were described as being completely by the droids. assaj simply finished the survivor off.
Also, can you post the relevant passage? I was under the impression there were several droids. I know for a fact that there were at least 2 present. Not that they both attacked the masters.
i think youre right that there was more. i cant remember. i dont have the book so im just going off of memory though. i think gideon has the book though so maybe he could shed some light.
Let me point out a few key facts real quick.
*A Clone Wars Legion was 9,200 men. During the Empire is was 9,700 on an ISD or 8,200 men.
*Vong were head-to-head more capable than the average solider in the New Republic. I think they usually had to be outnumbered 2-1 for the NR soldiers to have the advantage. This makes up for a lot of the eliteness of the 501st when comparing numbers.
*Luke killed hundreds, if not thousands of Vong during the sixth Battle of Coruscant in TUF.
*The Myrk Striketeam, consisting of 16 Jedi, no Masters, killed tons of Vong and the Voxyn Queen.
*The NJO is not above using questionable tactics when deemed necessary. We learned during the Thrawn trilogy that Clone minds are MUCH easier to control than those of regular people. Joruus C'Baoth was able to control the minds of every trooper on Thrawn's flagship.
****Thats 16,000 minds!****
Luke, Kyp, or Kyle should be able to freeze thousands of minds individually if they needed to. Exar Kun froze the million member Senate. Granted, they don't know the spell, but he froze HUGE numbers and EXOTIC aliens, making it even more impressive. Given that these are Clones, it should be much easier.
*During that Battle of Dantooine, Anakin and Jacen fought through hundreds of Vong soliders and the slave creatures (can't remember their names). They were still far from the most powerful members of the Jedi Order at that point.
*The Clones attack on the temple isn't a good indicator of how they would fair in an actual battle against Jedi. They had the element of surprise. They were fighting an almost empty Temple that consisted of mostly younglings. They also needed Anakin/Vader to take down the more powerful Jedi like Cin Drallig.
I think the Jedi take this handily.
@Ms. Marvel
You argued that one clone trooper > one jedi. You also said (although I have a feeling that you were joking) that YOU could beat a jedi/with a shotgun and grenades. I showed you examples of how large numbers of clones (that you said, and I agree, are among the most powerful soldiers in the entire Star Wars mythos) lost to small numbers of jedi. You are obviously not as well trained or as well armed as a clone trooper, and yet a jedi can take multiple clones at once, so therefore one of you can't take a clone.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Let me point out a few key facts real quick.*A Clone Wars Legion was 9,200 men. During the Empire is was 9,700 on an ISD or 8,200 men.
*Vong were head-to-head more capable than the average solider in the New Republic. I think they usually had to be outnumbered 2-1 for the NR soldiers to have the advantage. This makes up for a lot of the eliteness of the 501st when comparing numbers.
*Luke killed hundreds, if not thousands of Vong during the sixth Battle of Coruscant in TUF.
*The Myrk Striketeam, consisting of 16 Jedi, no Masters, killed tons of Vong and the Voxyn Queen.
*The NJO is not above using questionable tactics when deemed necessary. We learned during the Thrawn trilogy that Clone minds are MUCH easier to control than those of regular people. Joruus C'Baoth was able to control the minds of every trooper on Thrawn's flagship.
****Thats 16,000 minds!****
Luke, Kyp, or Kyle should be able to freeze thousands of minds individually if they needed to. Exar Kun froze the million member Senate. Granted, they don't know the spell, but he froze HUGE numbers and EXOTIC aliens, making it even more impressive. Given that these are Clones, it should be much easier.
*During that Battle of Dantooine, Anakin and Jacen fought through hundreds of Vong soliders and the slave creatures (can't remember their names). They were still far from the most powerful members of the Jedi Order at that point.
*The Clones attack on the temple isn't a good indicator of how they would fair in an actual battle against Jedi. They had the element of surprise. They were fighting an almost empty Temple that consisted of mostly younglings. They also needed Anakin/Vader to take down the more powerful Jedi like Cin Drallig.
I think the Jedi take this handily.
QTF, those are nice points.
A little off topic: In Darth Bane: Path of Destruction, it's stated that one sith lord is worth more than an entire DIVISION, and Kopez said that he'd gladly give away 1000 of his best men for one sith lord. When the Army of Light retook Ruusan, Kaan said that taking it with normal forces would be pointless, because ships and guns are no match for the power of the force. In other words, Having an armada of Star Destroyers wouldn't do squat to a few hundred jedi.
This contradicts a lot of other sources, in which jedi can be beaten by sufficient numbers.
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
You argued that one clone trooper > one jedi. You also said (although I have a feeling that you were joking) that YOU could beat a jedi/with a shotgun and grenades. I showed you examples of how large numbers of clones (that you said, and I agree, are among the most powerful soldiers in the entire Star Wars mythos) lost to small numbers of jedi. You are obviously not as well trained or as well armed as a clone trooper, and yet a jedi can take multiple clones at once, so therefore one of you can't take a clone.
i wasnt joking. i could very easily kill a master in the exact same a couple of droids killed two masters. that fact alone renders any jedi > trooper logic void. any soldier can kill a jedi with the right equipment. whenever you see clones piled up dead around jedi notice the weapons they were using. shitty assault rifles and they only single-shot with those they dont even go full auto most of the time. of course a jedi could beat that.
but notice that weapons that do splash damage such as shotguns kill jedi every time. in fact ive yet to see a jedi in the entire mythos defend himself against a shotgun...
Let me point out a few key facts real quick.*A Clone Wars Legion was 9,200 men. During the Empire is was 9,700 on an ISD or 8,200 men.
*Vong were head-to-head more capable than the average solider in the New Republic. I think they usually had to be outnumbered 2-1 for the NR soldiers to have the advantage. This makes up for a lot of the eliteness of the 501st when comparing numbers.
*Luke killed hundreds, if not thousands of Vong during the sixth Battle of Coruscant in TUF.
*The Myrk Striketeam, consisting of 16 Jedi, no Masters, killed tons of Vong and the Voxyn Queen.
*The NJO is not above using questionable tactics when deemed necessary. We learned during the Thrawn trilogy that Clone minds are MUCH easier to control than those of regular people. Joruus C'Baoth was able to control the minds of every trooper on Thrawn's flagship.
****Thats 16,000 minds!****
Luke, Kyp, or Kyle should be able to freeze thousands of minds individually if they needed to. Exar Kun froze the million member Senate. Granted, they don't know the spell, but he froze HUGE numbers and EXOTIC aliens, making it even more impressive. Given that these are Clones, it should be much easier.
*During that Battle of Dantooine, Anakin and Jacen fought through hundreds of Vong soliders and the slave creatures (can't remember their names). They were still far from the most powerful members of the Jedi Order at that point.
*The Clones attack on the temple isn't a good indicator of how they would fair in an actual battle against Jedi. They had the element of surprise. They were fighting an almost empty Temple that consisted of mostly younglings. They also needed Anakin/Vader to take down the more powerful Jedi like Cin Drallig.
I think the Jedi take this handily.
i have a couple problems with the logic here.
1. id say that a single clone is worth at least two or three NR soldiers myself.
2. how many of those vong soldiers were actively shooting at luke at the same time? how many were chucking grenades, firing shrapnel weapons, and heavy artillery? how many were taking cover and using civilians and buildings as cover?
3. those clones were not made by the kamino people and were not trained by jango fett. they also did not have the mental toughness of jango fett either. whose to say that the 501st could be as easily manipulated on a grand scale?
also. how many of those clones controlled by joruus were attacking from three thousand meters away?
4. the OP states that the clones are on one side of the earth while the jedi are on the other. so how can you say that the clones cant launch a surprise attack? according to some canon source i heard the majority of the jedi that were killed in order 66 didnt sense the clones turning on them because the clones didnt have murderous thoughts or intent. they were only following orders. so that being the case its not like luke will be able to sense them before the launch their attack no?
id say that the average PT jedi padawan is probably much stronger then the average NJO padawan considering the PT was the pinnacle of the orders wisdom and technique.