The NJO vs the 501st from Operation Knightfall

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
one. 😐 im very ignorant in that regard.

That explains a lot.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
i thought it had to do specifically with the strength of someones mind. I.E. their willpower. mmm

Developed through their experiences and training to resist mind control.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
not really. san francisco is considered a relatively large city but its only about 7 miles long. im at my cousins house house in oakland and i could hit someone who lives in san francisco.

I guess I'm just thinking cities in here in TX. My high school was just over eight miles away and I don't live in an unpopulated area. Are you sure its that small?

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
drastically? no. tripods are all collapsible. my uncle was an automatic rifleman in the army and he had a SAW with a tripod. he said that he was trained to retrieve the tripod from his pack unfold it and attach it to his weapon in under 15 seconds. if the clones are 5 miles away they have a lot more then 15 seconds to do this. when the tripod is collapsed it weighs almost nothing. this allows a heavy weapons user to function with the same mobility as a rifleman.

It's not exactly that simple to aim a weapon several miles.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
theyre inaccurate past 10 kilometers. do you know what "effective range" means in reference to a gun? it means the distance a gun shoots before it becomes the inaccuracy messes with the shot. an AK-47 has a maximum range of 800 meters depending on its scope. but the effective range of an ak-47 is only 300 meters. that means it becomes greatly inaccurate past 300 meters.

"While the use of blasters freed a clone trooper from the need to carry projectile ammunition, the DC-15A was a heavy 9.5 pounds, and the inherent instability of plasma gas reduced the weapon's accuracy.[1]Even so, the blaster was very powerful and deadly in the hands of the specially-trained clone troopers."

Yeah thats a wookie quote, but I also find it very interesting that the guns range doesn't add up at all with the rest of the mythos.

T-21 Light Repeating Blaster (max) 300m (optimum/effective) 150.
E-Web Repeating Blaster (max) 500m (effective) 200m.
Antivehicle Artillery (max) 10k (effective) 2k

The Anti-Infantry Battery is explicity stated to have a range FAR greater than that of the most powerful hand weapons. (max) 16k (effective) 3k. Thats right out of the Essential Guide to Weapons and Tech.

The only place I can find the 10k range figure is Wookiepedia. Any other sources?

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
according to the article youre looking at it says that using the gun at maximum power results in more damage. it does not say that maximum power results in greater range. look closely at the sentence structure there.

Incorrect. The wookie page says the ten shot thing but the Essential Guide to Weapons and Tech says that the effective range for weapons is listed at maximum power. The wookie page actually says it also.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
no theyre not.

Great argument. Not.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
vong arent clones. theyre inferior.

Wow, you're full of some bullshit.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
true. but the clones were much better then the NR soldiers 1 on 1.

The 501st specifically, yeah. The Vong are much better as well. We already agreed on that.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
theyre not. inferior technology and inferior tactics.

Once again, what a great argument. NOT. Try better next time.

About the D-15, although it certainly is pretty powerful (no idea why the Empire switched to the not as good E-11, or at least the gun with 30+ times lower range) it's pretty inaccurate. Jedi have been shown to be able to deflect sniper rounds, and they could hide in cities/forests, therefore making it almost impossible to hit them from such a range.

Again, in order for the jedi to win each one has to kill about 50 clones. Remember however that it doesn't have to be all at once. If they split up like Ms. Marvel said (a sound tactic...for dealing with most enemies) then they can easily defeat one 1,000 group, then another group comes to the rescue...but finds nothing, or gets attacked in return.

I guess I'm just thinking cities in here in TX. My high school was just over eight miles away and I don't live in an unpopulated area. Are you sure its that small?

My city, Lincoln, Nebraska, is relatively small and far more than 7 miles long.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
That explains a lot.

like what?

Developed through their experiences and training to resist mind control.

source? ive never heard that before. mmm

I guess I'm just thinking cities in here in TX. My high school was just over eight miles away and I don't live in an unpopulated area. Are you sure its that small?

*checks*

yeah its 7 miles by 7 miles.

It's not exactly that simple to aim a weapon several miles.

a lot of things arent that simple. using a lightsaber isnt that simple taking care of a bunch of screaming kids all day (believe me) for a paycheck isnt that simple.

but thats what training is for. so that you can do your job and use the tools required in that job to maximum efficiency. so yeah it isnt a simple process. but that doesnt mean it isnt possible or any probable.

but I also find it very interesting that the guns range doesn't add up at all with the rest of the mythos.

T-21 Light Repeating Blaster (max) 300m (optimum/effective) 150.
E-Web Repeating Blaster (max) 500m (effective) 200m.
Antivehicle Artillery (max) 10k (effective) 2k

The Anti-Infantry Battery is explicity stated to have a range FAR greater than that of the most powerful hand weapons. (max) 16k (effective) 3k. Thats right out of the Essential Guide to Weapons and Tech.

The only place I can find the 10k range figure is Wookiepedia. Any other sources?

your source for the AIB is outdated. I have the New Essential Guide to Weapons and Tech in front of me which has been updated to take the Prequel weapons into consideration. it no longer says anything with its passages akin to having a greater range than any hand weapon that i can see.

as for the dc-15a im trying to find the source. apparently its in a fact file. im trying to get ahold it

Incorrect. The wookie page says the ten shot thing but the Essential Guide to Weapons and Tech says that the effective range for weapons is listed at maximum power. The wookie page actually says it also.

could you show me the page number for this?

Great argument. Not.

im just trying to be like you man.

Wow, you're full of some bullshit.

great argument. NAWT! 😱

The 501st specifically, yeah. The Vong are much better as well. We already agreed on that.

the vong are better then the NR troops and the clones are better then the NR troops. this is true.

Once again, what a great argument. NOT. Try better next time. [/B]

wow youre mature for your age. haha... not.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
My city, Lincoln, Nebraska, is relatively small and far more than 7 miles long.

nebraska?

hahaha... 😐

Yeah I know. 😐

Nebraska: At least we're better than North Dakota! (They touch Canada. eww!)

Also: We gave a vote to Obama.

@Ms. Marvel: Now I'm not trying to follow peer pressure and become the bashers that some other people here are (not to point fingers at anyone) but some of your reasoning is ridiculous:

I understand that the 501st is very powerful and elite.

However, when I mentioned that in PoD one sith lord was said to be worth more than an entire division (which, I think, is larger than a legion), you countered by saying that the clones are the best. This implies that you think a single clone > a division (since we were just discussing about whether or not a clone > a jedi), which is absolutely ridiculous. Althought the claim that a sith > a division is although sketchy, just like the 3 million man clone army; chances are they meant that a sith lord isn't as powerful as a whole division, but their knowledge of the force allows for advantages (being able to predict enemy advances, influence enemy troops, act as special forces agents ie assasins, spies and other stuff that divisions can't do, redirect missiles, etc.) that make up for it. Even if so, then the same thing applies in this fight: the jedi have special advantages that allow them to do stuff that entire armies cannot, such as predict enemy movement and "influence" the enemy commander.

Sure, you can come up with a freak scenario in which you kill a jedi master with a shotgun and a gernade, but it's highly unlikely. They can:

1. Block your shot and chop your head off.
2. Force hurl you into a wall and breaking your neck
3. Disarming you with the force.
4. Stopping the shots midair and redirecting them back at you.
5. Break your spine with a thought.
6. Shoot you with their own blaster (jedi have brought blasters with them many times before, it's very common)
...or many other ways.

Sure, the clones are expert tacticians, but there are plenty of people in the order (Luke/Kyle/Corran/etc) who once served in a military force, often at very high ranks. So while the jedi aren't super ultra Thrawn tacticians, they aren't idiots either.

@Gideon

You have yet to respond to my quote about how if Jedi > Clones then 2% of Jedi (NJO) > 0.16666....% (501st) of the clones. Of course, more variables must be factored in, such as the very plausible claim that the average NJO jedi are generally weaker than average PT jedi, and that the 501st are above the average clones, but even then it still comes out mathematically with the jedi on top...in theory.

Also, the jedi at the temple were caught completely by surprise, and forgive me if I'm wrong but most of the masters were away, so most of them were just apprentices, with a few instructors.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Yeah I know. 😐

Nebraska: At least we're better than North Dakota! (They touch Canada. eww!)

Also: We gave a vote to Obama.

Damn, you are always competitive.

Damn, you are always not as good as I am.

Did you give an electoral vote to current president Obama?

Edit: That wasn't so much competition as pointing out how much ND sux. I mean, it would be like comparing onesself to a hamster and saying 'at least I have more bones than you!'

[note: I am unaware of the comparative values for bone quantity of Humans and Hamsters.]

Originally posted by Red Nemesis

Did you give an electoral vote to current president Obama?

lol, i think your definition of "winning" is a bit skewed.

I win, obviously. LKF will prevail.

QUIET YOU

🙁

Red letters don't intimidate me!!!!

(apparently they do intimidate knightfall)

😎

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
@Ms. Marvel: Now I'm not trying to follow peer pressure and become the bashers that some other people here are (not to point fingers at anyone) but some of your reasoning is ridiculous:

I understand that the 501st is very powerful and elite.

However, when I mentioned that in PoD one sith lord was said to be worth more than an entire division (which, I think, is larger than a legion), you countered by saying that the clones are the best. This implies that you think a single clone > a division (since we were just discussing about whether or not a clone > a jedi), which is absolutely ridiculous. Althought the claim that a sith > a division is although sketchy, just like the 3 million man clone army; chances are they meant that a sith lord isn't as powerful as a whole division, but their knowledge of the force allows for advantages (being able to predict enemy advances, influence enemy troops, act as special forces agents ie assasins, spies and other stuff that divisions can't do, redirect missiles, etc.) that make up for it. Even if so, then the same thing applies in this fight: the jedi have special advantages that allow them to do stuff that entire armies cannot, such as predict enemy movement and "influence" the enemy commander.

Sure, you can come up with a freak scenario in which you kill a jedi master with a shotgun and a gernade, but it's highly unlikely. They can:

1. Block your shot and chop your head off.
2. Force hurl you into a wall and breaking your neck
3. Disarming you with the force.
4. Stopping the shots midair and redirecting them back at you.
5. Break your spine with a thought.
6. Shoot you with their own blaster (jedi have brought blasters with them many times before, it's very common)
...or many other ways.

Sure, the clones are expert tacticians, but there are plenty of people in the order (Luke/Kyle/Corran/etc) who once served in a military force, often at very high ranks. So while the jedi aren't super ultra Thrawn tacticians, they aren't idiots either.

@Gideon

You have yet to respond to my quote about how if Jedi > Clones then 2% of Jedi (NJO) > 0.16666....% (501st) of the clones. Of course, more variables must be factored in, such as the very plausible claim that the average NJO jedi are generally weaker than average PT jedi, and that the 501st are above the average clones, but even then it still comes out mathematically with the jedi on top...in theory.

Also, the jedi at the temple were caught completely by surprise, and forgive me if I'm wrong but most of the masters were away, so most of them were just apprentices, with a few instructors.

Plus, although this might seem like a lame tactic, should it become a stalemate in which the jedi hide and the 501st just sit there, the jedi aren't growth accelerated so they'll live longer, and they can produce offspring whereas the clones are all male. So the 501st just dies out and the jedi survive.

Originally posted by ~:Mr.Anderson:~
🙁

Not you Knightfa11, TJ! (You were reasonably correct?)

TJ, you are a stoopidface rite now.

no, Red, I am a "stupidface"

[helps 😄 ]

You're a helper too?

Good, join the ranking. The current one is (from best to worse): Slash, TJ, everyone who is more or less helpful, everyone who tries to be helpful, everyone who does not know what helpful really means, everyone who hates everything helpful, fishes, flies and after some blank pages there is Red.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Plus, although this might seem like a lame tactic, should it become a stalemate in which the jedi hide and the 501st just sit there, the jedi aren't growth accelerated so they'll live longer, and they can produce offspring whereas the clones are all male. So the 501st just dies out and the jedi survive.

😐

😂 youre alright man.

Slash, your copy of the book seems to have been tricked. I suspect that you've been reading chick tracts. They kill facts for fun.