Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Ah the ABC arguments resurface.
Ummm Buddy.. guess what that is the best evidence for somebody skill with a light saber is combat situations and who they fought... Ooo wait I assume you prefer hyperbole....
As Allankies points out... I much rather look at combat feats then hyperbolic crap.
Allankles
Gideon, when you compiled your list did you take into consideration that Dooku iirc owned Sora Bulq in a saber duel in the clone wars comics?
No, I did not.
But since Dooku incapacitated him via Force lightning, why should I?
Allankles
Or that Anakin by ROTS is also above Dooku?
The power of Anakin's rage turned him into a machine against which Dooku could not defend; no one -- not even the novelization -- suggests that Anakin's skill was greater than Dooku's eight decades as the undisputed master of the quintessential dueling form.
Allankles
Also Obi Wan as a padawan was at least able to match Maul.
If by "match," you mean "managed to avoid dying at the hands of [Maul]" then I would agree. But otherwise? No, he wasn't even close.
Allankles
Which would make Obi Wan likely above Cin and Anoon.
Cin and Anoon were dueling experts and lightsaber instructors. Obi-Wan... was not. One assumes that they held their station through merit and skill, not fiat or raffle. No one is arguing their command of the Force or their overall ability as combatants, but as swordsmen? They're clearly elite.
Allankles
Anakin was also able to kill Cin in a lightsaber duel which would also put him above the battlemaster.
As a combatant, not necessarily as a swordsmen. They are two different things.
Whatever-your-name-is
Ummm Buddy.. guess what that is the best evidence for somebody skill with a light saber is combat situations and who they fought... Ooo wait I assume you prefer hyperbole....
That line of thought means that, since Mace Windu defeated Sidious in combat, he would in turn defeat Yoda, whom Sidious drove to retreat.
Spoiler:
He wouldn't.
ABC arguments are utterly fallible and hardly reliable. This is a discussion of skill, asserting that Obi-Wan is above "X" just because he beat "Y" is not a valid argument.
Whatever-your-name-is
As Allankies points out... I much rather look at combat feats then hyperbolic crap.
Allankles didn't point out anything with merit and allow me to be the first to assure you that no one really cares what you look for.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Ummm Buddy.. guess what that is the best evidence for somebody skill with a light saber is combat situations and who they fought... Ooo wait I assume you prefer hyperbole....As Allankies points out... I much rather look at combat feats then hyperbolic crap.
Oh right...The whole feat war game. That's always fun..
Gideon. 😬
How does Anakin beating an opponent without any PIS, in a lightsaber duel, against Cin Drallig, make Cin Drallig still the better saber duelist? Just because Anakin has more natural skill and less learned skill doesn't mean he is not good saber duelist right?
Tell me then, what is the difference between a combatant and a swordsman?
But doesn't every saber duelist use the Force to its fullest?
Or else Master Kavar and some Echani or Mandalorian swordsmaster is actually a better duelist than Anakin Skywalker.
EDIT: So actually one saber duelist shouldn't be able to beat the other in a saber only fight, just have more experience and skill?
I'm not sure what 'saber only fight' actually means. If we mean- fighting in a room with ysalmari (or whatever) then it is pure technical skill. If we go with 'no offensive FP but precog still in effect' then that is another thing entirely.
The term is useless and a bit silly- it is entirely speculation in the first case, and superfluous in the second. (Sure Kas'im could beat Marek, but that doesn't tell us anything.)
From now on I refuse to use that system.
All out is all that I'll discuss, or battles w/o Force awareness at all (taking place in the aforementioned room).
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I'm not sure what 'saber only fight' actually means. If we mean- fighting in a room with ysalmari (or whatever) then it is pure technical skill. If we go with 'no offensive FP but precog still in effect' then that is another thing entirely.The term is useless and a bit silly- it is entirely speculation in the first case, and superfluous in the second. (Sure Kas'im could beat Marek, but that doesn't tell us anything.)
From now on I refuse to use that system.
All out is all that I'll discuss, or battles w/o Force awareness at all (taking place in the aforementioned room).
lol, i've heard this before. Maybe not from you, but it has been submitted several times. Janus made an entire thread devoted to the concept of killing the 3 areas system one time. I generally specify not to do the 3 areas of combat at all, myself.
I think when most people use "sabers only" they mean that person's skills with a saber and the aide of the force to enhance reflexes and awareness, just no force attacks or Shields. At least I do. Through the force, Anoon was able to become the technical "best," but that doesn't translate to the best combatant. Same with Cin. He was a technical saber god (a bt exaggerated), but when everything is thrown in the mix, he couldn't contend with Anakin, even with the help of his padawan and whoever else was in the temple.
Originally posted by Gideon
No, I did not.But since Dooku incapacitated him via Force lightning, why should I?
The power of Anakin's rage turned him into a machine against which Dooku could not defend; no one -- not even the novelization -- suggests that Anakin's skill was greater than Dooku's eight decades as the undisputed master of the quintessential dueling form.
If by "match," you mean "managed to avoid dying at the hands of [Maul]" then I would agree. But otherwise? No, he wasn't even close.
Cin and Anoon were dueling experts and lightsaber instructors. Obi-Wan... was not. One assumes that they held their station through merit and skill, not fiat or raffle. No one is arguing their command of the Force or their overall ability as combatants, but as swordsmen? They're clearly elite.
As a combatant, not necessarily as a swordsmen. They are two different things.
That line of thought means that, since Mace Windu defeated Sidious in combat, he would in turn defeat Yoda, whom Sidious drove to retreat.
Spoiler:
He wouldn't.ABC arguments are utterly fallible and hardly reliable. This is a discussion of skill, asserting that Obi-Wan is above "X" just because he beat "Y" is not a valid argument.
Allankles didn't point out anything with merit and allow me to be the first to assure you that no one really cares what you look for.
You make me laugh with your pretensious arrogant tone Gideon but I would be more then happy to engage. Now lets examine what you said...
Allankles
Gideon, when you compiled your list did you take into consideration that Dooku iirc owned Sora Bulq in a saber duel in the clone wars comics?
"No, I did not.
But since Dooku incapacitated him via Force lightning, why should I? "
So, Bora was owning Dooku in the saber duel and Dooku had to resort to force lighting? False that isn't how it occurred in the least. Bora didn't have Dooku on the ropes or right about to beat him.. That never happened. Dooku was doing just fine with or without the force attack. Thanks
quote:
Allankles
Or that Anakin by ROTS is also above Dooku?
"The power of Anakin's rage turned him into a machine against which Dooku could not defend; no one -- not even the novelization -- suggests that Anakin's skill was greater than Dooku's eight decades as the undisputed master of the quintessential dueling form."
Now this is the best you could do? So, your trying to use a Red Herring argument are we Gideon? You can call it rage, skill, luck or whatever you choose. The fact remains and is undisputable... That without any force attacks and in a strictly saber duel... Anakin WTF PWNED Dooku. Period and end of discussion. You trying to say it was rage and not skill is hilarious and comical. No, Anakin was better and proved it that day. Thanks come again.
quote:
Allankles
Also Obi Wan as a padawan was at least able to match Maul.
"If by "match," you mean "managed to avoid dying at the hands of [Maul]" then I would agree. But otherwise? No, he wasn't even close. "
Again, using more fallacies are we? No he didn't mean managed to avoid dying.. That stupid sentence could be said about any duel in the history of the star wars universe. Man its very very easy to make you look silly. That is like saying... Obi Wan managed to avoid dying at the hands of Anakin. Sid or Yoda managed to not die at the hands of the other. Any duel could have that same stupid sentence repeated cause guess what, they all managed to survive. However, again what we have is a direct battle in which Obi-Wan KILLED Maul in combat including saber dueling. Period.
"ABC arguments are utterly fallible and hardly reliable. This is a discussion of skill, asserting that Obi-Wan is above "X" just because he beat "Y" is not a valid argument"
You see this is where your totally wrong... ABC as proof don't work. However, direct duels and combat situations and victories over opponents certainly tell us who is better. You placed people above others they got wtfpwned by. Do, you see how illogical that is. Nobody is using ABC arguments to prove anything. However, what we are doing is calling your on your preference for hyperbole instead of the best proof in the books which is actually saber duels against each other. Get the huge difference kid? .
In conclusion, it seems you prefer hyperbole instead of actual combat feats. You say ooo well Cin and Anoon were saber instructors so they MUST MUST be above Obi-Wan haha lol. Even though Obi-wan in ACTUAL life or death combat duels defeated Maul and Anakin. So, please Gideon list for me the people Cin and Anoon defeated in saber combat and I want to see if it stacks up to Obi-Wan. Now, by no means do I think Obi is the best, not even close, but certainly better then Cin and Anoon in saber duels as he has the track record and victories to back it up. Cin and Anoon are none to be good instructors in controlled environments. Thanks for playing.
KuRuPT Thanosi
You make me laugh with your pretensious arrogant tone Gideon
Well that's good, because I'm looking into comedy as a career path. Perhaps we could negotiate on me using your arguments as possible material? I'm sure they'd get a couple of chuckles in between blank stares and facepalming.
KT
but I would be more then happy to engage.
That is ill advised; reserve your discussions for people incapable of demolishing your entire stance in one post: I refer to the dead, mentally handicapped, or members of your immediate family.
😐
KT
So, Bora was owning Dooku in the saber duel and Dooku had to resort to force lighting? False that isn't how it occurred in the least. Bora didn't have Dooku on the ropes or right about to beat him.. That never happened. Dooku was doing just fine with or without the force attack. Thanks
No one said that "Bora" was owning Dooku or that Dooku "had to resort" to Force lightning. But that is he how he incapacitated him; not through superior swordsmanship. Ergo it's not relevant.
KT
Now this is the best you could do? So, your trying to use a Red Herring argument are we Gideon? You can call it rage, skill, luck or whatever you choose. The fact remains and is undisputable... That without any force attacks and in a strictly saber duel... Anakin WTF PWNED Dooku. Period and end of discussion. You trying to say it was rage and not skill is hilarious and comical. No, Anakin was better and proved it that day. Thanks come again.
No, because if it were skill, then he would have "WTF PWNED!" Dooku to an even greater extent since Obi-Wan was fighting alongside him. But he didn't. Dooku successfully fended them both off and then divided them through a greater command of the Force. Anakin had to succumb to the power enhancing rage of the dark side in order to gain the ability to defeat Dooku.
It was not through superior skill.
KT
Again, using more fallacies are we? No he didn't mean managed to avoid dying.. That stupid sentence could be said about any duel in the history of the star wars universe. Man its very very easy to make you look silly. That is like saying... Obi Wan managed to avoid dying at the hands of Anakin. Sid or Yoda managed to not die at the hands of the other. Any duel could have that same stupid sentence repeated cause guess what, they all managed to survive.
I skimmed over this. My fluency in Retard and other related languages, such as Handicapped, Moron, and Kanye, is practically nonexistent. I've put the word out for translators to come lend me a hand, but in the meantime, I'll explain to you what I meant by what I said.
Allankles asserted that Obi-Wan "matched" Maul. This is not the case. The novelization and movie both show that Maul was far more skilled than Obi-Wan, capable of outmaneuvering him and Qui-Gon simultaneously. Obi-Wan was able to briefly gain the upper hand when, rather like Anakin, he indulged his rage; it temporarily boosted his capability as a combatant, making him more aggressive and dangerous. And even then, Maul outmaneuvered him. The only reason Maul died was because of his overconfidence and a lucky attack on the part of Obi-Wan; neither Maul's overconfidence or luck qualify as Obi-Wan's skill.
Ergo, I said that the only way Obi-Wan matched Maul is if "matched," in this case, means "managed to avoid death at the hands of [Maul]."
Maul > Obi-Wan. Any further arguments and I'll just refer you to Advent, who might have more interest than myself in arguing with idiots.
KT
However, again what we have is a direct battle in which Obi-Wan KILLED Maul in combat including saber dueling. Period.
Which is not testament to Obi-Wan's superior skill.
Period?
Yes, I think so.
KT
You see this is where your totally wrong... ABC as proof don't work. However, direct duels and combat situations and victories over opponents certainly tell us who is better. You placed people above others they got wtfpwned by. Do, you see how illogical that is. Nobody is using ABC arguments to prove anything. However, what we are doing is calling your on your preference for hyperbole instead of the best proof in the books which is actually saber duels against each other. Get the huge difference kid? .
Those translators aren't here yet, so I have no idea what this means.
KT
In conclusion, it seems you prefer hyperbole instead of actual combat feats. You say ooo well Cin and Anoon were saber instructors so they MUST MUST be above Obi-Wan haha lol. Even though Obi-wan in ACTUAL life or death combat duels defeated Maul and Anakin. So, please Gideon list for me the people Cin and Anoon defeated in saber combat and I want to see if it stacks up to Obi-Wan. Now, by no means do I think Obi is the best, not even close, but certainly better then Cin and Anoon in saber duels as he has the track record and victories to back it up. Cin and Anoon are none to be good instructors in controlled environments. Thanks for playing.
No.
Omniscient narrators and databanks have provided factual accounts of Anoon and Cin's skill. Obi-Wan's track record is that he has survived attacks from Darths Maul and Tyranus, defeats Asajj Ventress, defeats Anakin Skywalker, and lastly manages to defeat General Grievous through a brief period of unparalleled connection to the Force (Revenge of the Sith novelization).
Sora Bulq and Anoon Bondara are, unlike Obi-Wan, established by omniscient narrators and databanks as being among the very best alive, which is why I put them among the very best alive.
The fact that Obi-Wan has seen more action than they have is irrelevant.
🙂