He did.
No one said that "Bora" was owning Dooku or that Dooku "had to resort" to Force lightning. But that is he how he incapacitated him; not through superior swordsmanship. Ergo it's not relevant.
Didn't we all agree that Dooku taking out Kenobi with the Force was due to his superior skill setting up the position to do so. I don't see how that isn't a apt description of this duel as well, though I'll admit I havn't seen the scene in question.
Nephthys
Didn't we all agree that Dooku taking out Kenobi with the Force was due to his superior skill setting up the position to do so. I don't see how that isn't a apt description of this duel as well, though I'll admit I havn't seen the scene in question.
I realize you don't like the fact that His Imperial Majesty, the Galactic Emperor Palpatine, is the most powerful and most important Sithcharacter in the mythos, but you really need to stop challenging me at every turn.
u alwayz fayl
Anyway, no we did not. Dooku's attack on Obi-Wan via the Force was done so out of desperation, not strategy. He was being slowly overwhelmed by their coordinated attack. Even so, I am not discussing who is the best overall combatant. I'm making a distinction between a technically skilled duelist and a superior combatant. Obi-Wan is very likely better than Anoon Bondara in an all out engagement due to several factors that aren't related to his actual skill with a lightsaber.
Much of the all out greats: Sidious, Luke, Yoda, ect. rely on a superior command of the Force than technical aptitude.
Originally posted by Gideon
No, I did not.But since Dooku incapacitated him via Force lightning, why should I?
Wasn't Dooku outnumbered 2 to 1 iirc. Didn't Dooku toy with him iirc with his lightsaber before ending the contest?
Originally posted by Gideon
The power of Anakin's rage turned him into a machine against which Dooku could not defend; no one -- not even the novelization -- suggests that Anakin's skill was greater than Dooku's eight decades as the undisputed master of the quintessential dueling form.
But the thread is concerned with overall saber dueling capability, not technical skill (which is also debatable as Dooku describes Anakin as the best Djem So practitioner he's seen). Anakin never used any offensive force techniques in the aforementioned duels, he used his saber exclusively.
Originally posted by Gideon
If by "match," you mean "managed to avoid dying at the hands of [Maul]" then I would agree. But otherwise? No, he wasn't even close.
I didn't deny that Maul was superior to Obi Wan (overall) but in terms of saber dueling ability? Obi Wan performed better than Anoon Bondara (for all his supposed technical ability).
The issue is dealing with saber dueling ability as a whole. If my technique is cruder and I still get better results, then I'm the better duelist. Not that Obi Wan's technical ability is in doubt he is the best Soresu practitioner.
Originally posted by Gideon
Cin and Anoon were dueling experts and lightsaber instructors. Obi-Wan... was not. One assumes that they held their station through merit and skill, not fiat or raffle. No one is arguing their command of the Force or their overall ability as combatants, but as swordsmen? They're clearly elite.
But the issue at hand is concerned with their overal dueling ability with sabers. Anakin and Obi Wan didn't use force powers all that often against other force sensitives. In fact with the exception of Asajj Ventress Anakin didn't use offensive force techniques against other elite force users.
Logically Anakin was a superior saber duelist to Cin - Cin may have had the greater knowledge on saber techniques but Anakin would beat him in a saber fight, making him the superior saber duelist.
Right, but I was never arguing by the merits of superior Force aptitude or the temporary benefits afforded by indulging one's rage. I'm arguing strictly as duelists, not combatants or fighters.
Edit: Not using Force powers doesn't mean that their victories did not come through superior Force aptitude. I refer you to Palpatine vs. Masters Tiin, Kolar, and Fisto.
Originally posted by Gideon
Right, but I was never arguing by the merits of superior Force aptitude or the temporary benefits afforded by indulging one's rage. I'm arguing strictly as duelists, not combatants or fighters.Edit: Not using Force powers doesn't mean that their victories did not come through superior Force aptitude. I refer you to Palpatine vs. Masters Tiin, Kolar, and Fisto.
Yes, but using a saber as effectively as is possible involves the force. Precognition, the mental endurance/focus, the speed, the balance (which is ultimately tied to endurance). Basically the battle masters benefited from the force all the same.
So I don't think you can ignore the force.
And I do understand your argument about pure skill (without factoring the force), but Anakin and Obi Wan were also talented duelists, each being described as the best of their respective forms, making them - by extension - superior to Anoon and Cin technically in those two forms.
I thought the entire point of this thread was to see who would be the better saber duelist, as in, who would be better in lightsaber combat, as in, who would beat who in lightsaber combat, as in, fvck the technical crap. You may as well make your own thread and name it, who has the most technical skill with a lightsaber. And then I will even put Master Kavar above Anakin.
But here it is known that Anakin beat Dooku and Cin Drallig in lightsaber combat, and if you say he isn't allowed to tap into the Dark Side, then I'm allowed to say that Dooku can't do the same either. Also, Obi-Wan isn't lousy feats only, he is the master of Soresu, a lightsaber style, and he can block 16 strikes per second for fvck sake.
Slash, calm the fvck down. Discussing technical skill (which actually requires thought) > LAWL FEET WARZ!
And a Jedi abusing their rage is a notorious power booster that has allowed them to briefly overpower combatants who are otherwise more skilled and more powerful than they are.
And somehow, the fact that he is a master of Soresu does not mean jack compared to the likes of Bulq and Bondara.
Chill. Or move on. I don't care which.
Originally posted by Gideon
Slash, calm the fvck down. Discussing technical skill (which actually requires thought) > LAWL FEET WARZ!And a Jedi abusing their rage is a notorious power booster that has allowed them to briefly overpower combatants who are otherwise more skilled and more powerful than they are.
And somehow, the fact that he is a master of Soresu does not mean jack compared to the likes of Bulq and Bondara.
Chill. Or move on. I don't care which.
Just as I said... Gideon is all about Hyperbole and not about feats it seems when it comes to dueling. Guess what kid, feats are the NO.1 criteria in derterming saber dueling. Your no.1 is hyperbole and famed databanks on how is the best lol.
Let me ask you something about your fallacy....
1. Couldn't you say your line for ANY saber duel in the history of the star wars universe your famed.."he managed to survive without being killed" haha lol. I still laugh at that. Obi-Wan like all duels managed to survive but guess what.. he also managed to wtfpwn maul and anakin. Period.
This thread is about duelist... Obi-wan has beat.. Maul, Anakin and Grievous to name some... Now who has Cin and Anoon beat that can compare.. go.. .hurry and don't use your famed hyperbole "well the databanks say they are TH3 B3ST" haha lol. Epic fail.
It's hard to imagine Anakin pwning Dooku any faster than he did, but it wasn't until OB1 was knocked away and he was kicked in the chest that he stared to let go and let his emotions help him out.The more Dooku taunted him , the more pissed off he got. I mean every blow he dealt Dooku aged Dooku like what, 10 years? That's not technical skill, that's brute force and a greater command (not mastery) of the force.
Anoon's skills were second to none, but he was beaten handily by Maul. That doesn't mean that Maul can go destroy every other Jedi, because as Gideon is saying, "technical skill" does not translate to an automatic, guaranteed win.
Originally posted by AllanklesAnd he was superior to Dooku in that particular form, but that didn't help him out did it?
It means he is superior to both in that particular form.
This,
If by "match," you mean "managed to avoid dying at the hands of [Maul]" then I would agree. But otherwise? No, he wasn't even close.
is what I said.
This,
1. Couldn't you say your line for ANY saber duel in the history of the star wars universe your famed.."he managed to survive without being killed" haha lol.
is what you said I said.
The statements are two very different things.
@ Exodus, he's not Nebaris.