Originally posted by Slash_KMC
****!! I hate agreeing with Noez.But yeah, Subjekt, Mace can definitely take Dooku.
This is just pure bias. You hate agreeing with me, even when I'm right! You should judge based on what someone says/argues, not based on who they are.
Anyway, yeah; team 1 wins comfortably.
this is insanely close. Because I'm completely biased, I'm going with team 1.
But I could see how team two wins this.
Although, I'm pretty sure (and I dunno why) that Obi beats Maul. Although Obi won because of a fluke... but he was a padawan then, and got stronger when...
although putting into account the place where they are fighting..
I just don't know... >>. *waits for everyone to post arguments and just follows*
If Kenobi squares off with Maul (which is very likely as the other two are far above his level) then it is unlikely that Maul will be killed quickly. Kenobi's style capitalizes on others' mistakes. Maul, a 'high level master' of many forms, and a practitioner of Juyo skilled enough to give Sidious pause (even if only for a moment) is unlikely to make such a mistake quickly.
Yoda and Sidious is questionable, but I'd be very comfortable with Yoda losing this. His style is noted to be hampered in such conditions? (Which is dumb- wouldn't having extra surfaces for him to jump off of help? Esp. Since he's so small? whatev)
Mace vs. Dooku is not easy to call. I'm really tempted to default to Mace (just 'cuz) but Dooku is noted to be an equal time and time again. I don't see shatterpoint picking up a technique related weakness (considering how good Dooku is and how long he's had to master his style) so that puts it a bit outside the realm of a tactical advantage. Will Vaapad help?
This is also questionable. Dooku knew of it, especially since he tooled [whoever the Vaapad user that went Dark Side] quite easily. The technical aspect will therefore not be too unknown. Will the 'loop come into play? Dooku uses the Force to buff himself, so it is possible. The way he uses it is a lot different though. The Ep. III book implies that it is an aloof and contemptuous link with which he powers himself. Not vindictive or particularly emotional. This might make it difficult to get "traction" to reflect back at him.
I am very tempted to call the two equal.
I'm siding with team two.
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
If Kenobi squares off with Maul (which is very likely as the other two are far above his level) then it is unlikely that Maul will be killed quickly. Kenobi's style capitalizes on others' mistakes. Maul, a 'high level master' of many forms, and a practitioner of Juyo skilled enough to give Sidious pause (even if only for a moment) is unlikely to make such a mistake quickly.Yoda and Sidious is questionable, but I'd be very comfortable with Yoda losing this. His style is noted to be hampered in such conditions? (Which is dumb- wouldn't having extra surfaces for him to jump off of help? Esp. Since he's so small? whatev)
Mace vs. Dooku is not easy to call. I'm really tempted to default to Mace (just 'cuz) but Dooku is noted to be an equal time and time again. I don't see shatterpoint picking up a technique related weakness (considering how good Dooku is and how long he's had to master his style) so that puts it a bit outside the realm of a tactical advantage. Will Vaapad help?
This is also questionable. Dooku knew of it, especially since he tooled [whoever the Vaapad user that went Dark Side] quite easily. The technical aspect will therefore not be too unknown. Will the 'loop come into play? Dooku uses the Force to buff himself, so it is possible. The way he uses it is a lot different though. The Ep. III book implies that it is an aloof and contemptuous link with which he powers himself. Not vindictive or particularly emotional. This might make it difficult to get "traction" to reflect back at him.
I am very tempted to call the two equal.
I'm siding with team two.
True, the fight might last for quite a while, although Maul has been shown to get overconfident quickly.
Yoda and Sidious will probably last for a very long while, and no the enclosed space isn't as much of a hamper given Yoda's small frame, meaning that he still has quite a bit of space to move around it.
Did Sora Bulq know shatterpoint? Shatterpoint doesn't come with Vapaad; Luke, Caedus and later Jaina all learned it without learning Vapaad. And Mace's greatest feat is defeating SIDIOUS. Has Dooku done any feat that comes close to that?
Why side with team 2? Based on your conclusions Obi Wan barely > Maul (true), Yoda = Sidious (true) and Dooku = Mace (not true, Mace > Dooku). So based off of this team 1 wins.
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
If Kenobi squares off with Maul (which is very likely as the other two are far above his level) then it is unlikely that Maul will be killed quickly. Kenobi's style capitalizes on others' mistakes. Maul, a 'high level master' of many forms, and a practitioner of Juyo skilled enough to give Sidious pause (even if only for a moment) is unlikely to make such a mistake quickly.Yoda and Sidious is questionable, but I'd be very comfortable with Yoda losing this. His style is noted to be hampered in such conditions? (Which is dumb- wouldn't having extra surfaces for him to jump off of help? Esp. Since he's so small? whatev)
Mace vs. Dooku is not easy to call. I'm really tempted to default to Mace (just 'cuz) but Dooku is noted to be an equal time and time again. I don't see shatterpoint picking up a technique related weakness (considering how good Dooku is and how long he's had to master his style) so that puts it a bit outside the realm of a tactical advantage. Will Vaapad help?
This is also questionable. Dooku knew of it, especially since he tooled [whoever the Vaapad user that went Dark Side] quite easily. The technical aspect will therefore not be too unknown. Will the 'loop come into play? Dooku uses the Force to buff himself, so it is possible. The way he uses it is a lot different though. The Ep. III book implies that it is an aloof and contemptuous link with which he powers himself. Not vindictive or particularly emotional. This might make it difficult to get "traction" to reflect back at him.
I am very tempted to call the two equal.
I'm siding with team two.
I'm still siding with team one. And, Digimon is a better anime than Pokémon.
Because Vaapad is so sporadically useful. Against Sidious it helped boost Mace to things he wouldn't have been able to do himself. This is a unique effect. I'm not sure we can just say "IT IS SUPER EFFECTIVE AGAINST DARKSIDERS" when it might have been a quirk of how Sidious used the Force.
Without the automatic 'MACE BEATS DARKSIDERS' point I'm not sure that he can take Dooku.
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Because Vaapad is so sporadically useful. Against Sidious it helped boost Mace to things he wouldn't have been able to do himself. This is a unique effect. I'm not sure we can just say "IT IS SUPER EFFECTIVE AGAINST DARKSIDERS" when it might have been a quirk of how Sidious used the Force.Without the automatic 'MACE BEATS DARKSIDERS' point I'm not sure that he can take Dooku.
But it IS super effective against dark siders. A better argument would be that the more powerful the opponent in the dark side, the easier it is for Mace to use Vaapad. Seeing as how Dooku is nowhere near Sidious' level of dark side knowledge, Vaapad MAY not be as useful.
I've done that one already. I've got it canned and linked from project holocron. If I wanted to do that I would.
I want to look at why it is defaulted strong against DSrs instead of strong against SIDIOUS. I'm looking at the book now and it looks like it is based on emotions?
Anakin could feel how the Force fed upon the shadow's murderous exaltation; he could feel fury spray into the Force though some poisonous abscess had crested in both their hearts.
Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center-And let it fountain out again.He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt.
He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear. Easily, almost effortlessly, he turned the shadow's fear into a weapon: he angled the battle to bring them both out onto the window ledge.
Clearly more analysis will be necessary to make this a workable position, but it really changes the way Mace defaults out of vs fights.
Which would be good.
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I've done that one already. I've got it canned and linked from project holocron. If I wanted to do that I would.I want to look at why it is defaulted strong against DSrs instead of strong against SIDIOUS. I'm looking at the book now and it looks like it is based on emotions?
Clearly more analysis will be necessary to make this a workable position, but it really changes the way Mace defaults out of vs fights.
Which would be good.
To me, the concept of a superconducting loop seems to deal with the power of the dark side user. The more power, the more effective the superconducting loop is. It seems rather simple.
But I've made that argument. Why not do something different?
KMC will be even more boring if it turns into this:
YouTube video
That's what my reusing that argument will make.
Nothing is wrong with the one that I usually use. That you suggested it proves that I've won it.
So I'm moving on. New argument. This way I know I have a good opponent too!
But srsly. If all we do is reuse old arguments why are we still here? We can write a basic algorithm to display links to newbies and leave. And that doesn't sound like fun. Thus: NEW ARGUMENTS WILL BE USED
What has Dooku done to suggest he is on par with Mace who beat Sidious? Beat Kenobi? Beat Anakin 1X, Lost to Anakin, Lost to Yoda in 30 seconds, then Ran. Lost to Yoda on a planet where he is completely steeped in the dark side, and runs away again.
I don't see what Dooku has done to even put him on that level, besides what he says about himself. Love dooku, and maybe i'm forgetting something, but it doesn't seem like he should be able to win against Mace or Yoda, almost ever.
Team 1 wins because those puppets are on their side. Well, he Voldemort one is.
Obi-Wans Soresu would let him defend against Dooku or Maul for at least a minute, which as I see it Dooku would target Kenobi in his arrogance, Yoda goes after Sidious, and Mace kills Maul in 5 seconds. Then Dooku dies. All the time Yoda and Sidious have been fighting, Sidious wasnt aware of his allies dying, so he gets stabbed in the back ir something.