Gideon
Depends on what context everyone is saying "Mace >> Dooku." In terms of skill? It's absolutely arguable.Mace was a "high end master of multiple forms" whereas Dooku was the supreme master of the ultimate refinement of lightsaber-to-lightsaber dueling; Dooku is a specialist, whereas Mace undoubtably has a wider arsenal. On the other hand, Dooku was also the Temple's foremost lightsaber instructor at one point, and has demonstrated considerable knowledge of all forms, though there is nothing to suggest he's a high end master of multiple forms. And one also has to take into consideration that Dooku is the more experienced duelist and has defeated Mace in the past, whereas the same cannot be said of Mace himself.
It's hardly cut-and-dry and Mace is by no means out of Dooku's league. The statement provided in Dark Rendezvous
suggestsoutright says that, all things considered, Dooku and Mace are equal. In the Force, I would likely have to defer to Dooku by something of a notable margin; he wouldn't be owning Mace or easily defeating him by any means, but Dooku was an experienced scholar of Sith and Jedi techniques for decades and is referred to as one of the most powerful Jedi and Sith in galactic history.In the strict confines of a duel, though, yes, I would have to side with Mace, given the metaphysical properties of Vaapad and the shatterpoint charism would allow him to negate any advantages at Dooku's disposal. Even then, it isn't a guaranteed win. Dooku may get lucky and score a quick kill before Mace submerges himself in Vaapad.
If we took the metaphysical nature of Vaapad out of the equation, then I would personally say it could go either way without any favorites.
I know it's by no means up to me, so I'm not claiming that it is, but i absolutely HATE the Vaapad crap. Somehow it allows him to beat any darkside user, period. If that were the case, then he should have pwned all the Sith single handedly. I won't even start the whole "Sidious went easy to turn Anakin" debate, cause it will never end, and I'm not even sure which way I'm leaning towards on that. I've heard great arguments from both sides, and cant remember if there's been anything definitive come out about it.
Anyway, about the Dooku beating Mace thing back in the day... You can say that Mace hadn't mastered his style yet, but by the same token it was said about Dooku that, "he was one of the most powerful Jedi in the order's 25,000 year history, and an even greater Sith." So one would think that would even the playing field (also given with Gideon's above post).
I just don't see how shatterpoint and Vaapad guarantee an unequivocal victory over any dark side opponent.
EDIT:
@Gideon
Mace Windu beat Darth Sidious.
Repeat, Mace Windu beat Darth Sidious.
Dooku has yet to demonstrate any feat that matches the above.
A>B>C's are crap. Also, who lived to take over the galaxy? Sure as hell wasn't Mace. 😬
Hewhoknowsall
@Gideon
Oh, Jesus.
I should learn to trust my infallible instincts; giving you another chance is about as wise as letting Michael Jackson run a Daycare center.
Hewhoknowsall
Mace Windu beat Darth Sidious.
You're a treasure chest of useless trivia, aren't you?
Hewhoknowsall
Repeat, Mace Windu beat Darth Sidious.
Thanks for the repeat, I didn't catch it the first time. Or all those times I watched the movie.
Hewhoknowsall
Dooku has yet to demonstrate any feat that matches the above.
A>B>C arguments don't work around here. 'Til you provide an actual case as to why that's relevant, running around saying LOLZ MACE BEAT SIDZ doesn't matter.
Leave the arguing to McBeefington and move on.
Now.
@Gideon
I'm trying not to use ABC. I'm saying that Mace beat Sidious, which is a very very impressive FEAT.
And another very impressive, possibly MORE impressive feat: beating hundreds of thousands of super battle droids with his BARE HANDS, dodging lasers, destroying a giant flying hammer thingy, leaping hundreds, maybe thousands of feet into the air, turning super battle droids into tiny pieces of dust with a gesture, and knocking thousands of super battle droids back with a gesture...all WITHOUT BREAKING A SWEAT.
"oh that's not relevant!" I thought that feats are what we're supposed to use. What else?
Hewhoknowsall
@GideonI'm trying not to use ABC. I'm saying that Mace beat Sidious, which is a very very impressive FEAT.
It doesn't matter. You used it in the manner of an ABC argument, which is considerable in its stupidity. Mace Windu defeated Palpatine under a specific set of circumstances; to anyone with a modicum of knowledge on the issue, it is recognized that another engagement between the two might have ended differently, given Sidious's superior command of the Force. It was only due to his submersion in Vaapad and the shatterpoint charism that Windu was able to hand a victory; Sidious possesses the skill and power to disable him with the Force or, if he's lucky, overpower him through superior speed and agility before Windu submerges into Vaapad.
Windu did not best him through superior power or even, necessarily, superior skill. Dark Rendezvous outright states, if you bothered to read what I quoted, that Windu and Dooku were "equals" on even ground.
Originally posted by Gideon
It doesn't matter. You used it in the manner of an ABC argument, which is considerable in its stupidity. Mace Windu defeated Palpatine under a specific set of circumstances; to anyone with a modicum of knowledge on the issue, it is recognized that another engagement between the two might have ended differently, given Sidious's superior command of the Force. It was only due to his submersion in Vaapad and the shatterpoint charism that Windu was able to hand a victory; Sidious possesses the skill and power to disable him with the Force or, if he's lucky, overpower him through superior speed and agility before Windu submerges into Vaapad.Windu did not best him through superior power or even, necessarily, superior skill. Dark Rendezvous outright states, if you bothered to read what I quoted, that Windu and Dooku were "equals" on even ground.
True. But if he beat Sidious beacuse of Vapaad and shatterpoint, then what stops him from doing the same to Dooku? Mace is no slouch in the Force, so Dooku can't just quickly disable him that way. Sure they may be equals, but then you have to take into account Vapaad/shatterpoint.
And you ignored the part about Mace Windu soloing hundreds of thousands of droids and a giant flying hammer using his bare fists and without even trying.
Originally posted by Gideon
Windu did not best him through superior power or even, necessarily, superior skill. Dark Rendezvous outright states, if you bothered to read what I quoted, that Windu and Dooku were "equals" on even ground.
Dark Rendezvous
Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible-wickedness cut in red light.
Or am I missing something?
First of all, this fight isn't on Vjun
Second of all, how do you know that by "equal" they mean in a fight, or just in skill? It makes sense that they're both about equal in terms of ability, but Mace's Vapaad sort of works at a "stat booster", so in a fight Mace will have the advantage, like how he beat Darth Sidious, THE most powerful sith lord of all time.
Third, even if Mace = Dooku, team 1 still wins. Sidious can't really take advantage of his environment here any more than Yoda can, Obi Wan likely beats Maul, and Mace apparently fight Dooku on even footing.
Ok, then in essence, the teams are equal except for Maul and OB1, and Maul is OB1's superior. Then you have 3 on 2... game over.
And goddamn it!!! I wish you would think before you posted. If its said that they are equal, they are already taking in account shatterpoint and vaapad. That would be the equalizer for Dooku's 8 decades of training and force mastery.
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Ok, then in essence, the teams are equal except for Maul and OB1, and Maul is OB1's superior. Then you have 3 on 2... game over.And goddamn it!!! I wish you would think before you posted. If its said that they are equal, they are already taking in account shatterpoint and vaapad. That would be the equalizer for Dooku's 8 decades of training and force mastery.
I would say Kenobi is Maul's superior, so then you have 3 on 2, game over for the sith, otherwise, QFT.