ROTS Sidious vs Orbalisk Bane

Started by Advent11 pages

Here's one of the remaining quotes, certainly the last one that I'll bother to look for before I hit the hay:

"The Emperor had known it would be thus, of course [that the Rebel Alliance would be troublesome]; the resistance had not been a surprise to him. The Emperor was completely in concert with the dark side of the Force. He was the most powerful Sith who had ever existed."

This is from the novel Death Star. The last two lines appear to be fairly straightforward. I'm not sure what the Rebellion has to do with that, though, which raises an eyebrow as to how that fits into the rest of the statement. Without having the entire passage, I can't be certain if it sets any pretense, but I doubt it. Judge for yourselves.

There is also a quote which nikkolas provided from star wars insider that kevin j anderson stated that exar kun, naga sadow and the other sith are on a firmly lower tier than emperor palpatine.

However do NOT take my word for it as i CANNOT confirm it with nikkolas(or anyone elese) as to which issue of SW insider did he get it from seeing that he has been banned like a year or two ago.

Originally posted by ApC
Advent disagrees with the quotes' validity in supporting the argument, at least as far as I remember, and every quote that Gideon has presented has been more than adequately addressed, only to be brought up again in threads like these (see Sidious66 and the in-universe NEC quote as an example).

Actually NONE of the quotes have been adequately addressed. You've tried and failed and were banned on multiple occasions.

Originally posted by Advent
Here's one of the remaining quotes, certainly the last one that I'll bother to look for before I hit the hay:

"The Emperor had known it would be thus, of course [that the Rebel Alliance would be troublesome]; the resistance had not been a surprise to him. The Emperor was completely in concert with the dark side of the Force. He was the most powerful Sith who had ever existed."

This is from the novel Death Star. The last two lines appear to be fairly straightforward. I'm not sure what the Rebellion has to do with that, though, which raises an eyebrow as to how that fits into the rest of the statement. Without having the entire passage, I can't be certain if it sets any pretense, but I doubt it. Judge for yourselves.

Seems clear cut to me. There are questions only if you're specifically looking to doubt the quotes in favor of an alternate, yet less logical meaning

Oops, I actually didn't provide the full quote last night! 😮

"The Emperor was completely in concert with the dark side of Force. He was the most powerful Sith who ever existed.

As would Vader be, someday."

Well, that was a blunder. The book is written in the same fashion as the RotS novelization — it is third-person limited perspective. That means everything we're reading is coming from the extent of one's characters mind (it jumps around from one person to the next), but is written in the form of third-person.

It's value is nothing since it's coming from Vader's subjective observations. I'm not saying that Palpatine isn't the most powerful Sith Lord that we know about or anything; merely that those three quotes don't mean anything about personal Force power, and to be fair to Nebaris' point, one of them was still being tossed around in this thread. I'm not aware of anything else, but I'm sure there's at least one quote floating around.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
There is also a quote which nikkolas provided from star wars insider that kevin j anderson stated that exar kun, naga sadow and the other sith are on a firmly lower tier than emperor palpatine.

However do NOT take my word for it as i CANNOT confirm it with nikkolas(or anyone elese) as to which issue of SW insider did he get it from seeing that he has been banned like a year or two ago.

I believe that was false propaganda that slithered it's way into the forum.

Can I also point out that authors, and even GL haven't read all the books (GL has said multiple times he has never read them all). How can he say, yes, the EU exists as canon, but I don't really know what is in there and I'm just going to make blanket statements out of ignorance? As I said before, I realize the policy of KMC is to accept statements from Lucas, but I personally don't appeal to faulty authority.

Originally posted by Advent
Oops, I actually didn't provide the full quote last night! 😮

Wasn't that like three hours ago? 😂

Originally posted by ApC
Wasn't that like three hours ago? 😂

It's open to interpretation.

Advent, there's been PLENTY of quotes that make it obvious. Glentract wants to go the way of the Antediluvians with the "I don't believe it logic", let him.

Originally posted by Advent
But, I do recall there being at least a couple of more quotes that do specifically call him the most powerful Sith Lord that we know about. Besides, it's hard to ignore the tons of evidence that indicates he should be; Palpatine is basically the most profiled Sith Lord when it comes to his knowledge and power.

There is a downside to that level of exposure however; while his strengths are profiled so are his weaknesses. Specifically, the movies (highest form of canon and as such set the precedence) quite effectively establish limitations to both the likes of Sidious and Yoda; Yoda struggles with relatively basic telekinesis frequently throughout the movies, and at the same time was able to both overpower Sidious directly with telekinesis and later force a stalemate with the Sith Lord.

Even outside of the movies he is never shown to have done anything of a truly significant scale under his own power with defined circumstances.

The Force Storm (which is performed by a later incarnation anyway) relies on a complex and organised, indirect procedure that summons power from a "hidden reservoir of dark side power" (and as such is not reflective of his regular level of ability).

Palpatine's part in diminishing the Jedi's sensitivity of the Force was done in completely undefined circumstances, and it's entirely possible he required the use of tools or an organised ritual, such as the one we see in Sithisis, in which case it would not be reflective of his regular level of ability either.

Everything else IIRC has all been of a completely unspectacular scale, and nobody has ever really substantiated what knowledge actually means in a combat situation. The Force hasn't truly shown itself to be manifested through combat relevant techniques in that many ways; Jedi and Sith are shown to be able to use physical, long ranged offensive powers, both externally and internally on an opponent, defencive powers, can effect their own physical abilities, can hide themselves in the Force, sense hidden objects in the Force, enhance their reflexes, use telepathy both offensively and defensively and a few other relatively basic abilities (and rare ones such as Shatterpoint); Sidious himself hasn't displayed anything combat relevant outside of the above mentioned abilities so against someone like Bane (who himself has a pretty incredible knowledge base, and has specifically displayed all of the above), the only advantage Sidious can truly be said to possess is a variety of techniques; nothing indicates that he would possess any real advantage over Bane (such as an attack that Bane doesn't have a defencive ability for), knowledge wise; whereas everything Bane has displayed would suggest that he'd have a pretty considerable advantage over the Sith Lord in both power (absorbing, storing, defending himself internally against, and telekinetically redirecting a planetary level of Force lightning) and precision (subatomic scale alterations using the Force), not even mentioning the orbalisks.

Good lord. As usual, Nebaris brings in defeated arguments.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Seems clear cut to me. There are questions only if you're specifically looking to doubt the quotes in favor of an alternate, yet less logical meaning

So you accept that there are alternate meanings? Awesome. 👆

Originally posted by ApC
So you accept that there are alternate meanings? Awesome. 👆

In some quotes yes, in the majority no.

Post just one of "the majority" please.

Advent
This is from the novel Death Star. The last two lines appear to be fairly straightforward. I'm not sure what the Rebellion has to do with that, though, which raises an eyebrow as to how that fits into the rest of the statement. Without having the entire passage, I can't be certain if it sets any pretense, but I doubt it. Judge for yourselves.

Vader was musing how many of the Empire's commanding officers did not consider the Alliance to be a threat, but that the Emperor [secretly] did. It has no bearing on the quote at all.

Advent
I'm not saying that Palpatine isn't the most powerful Sith Lord that we know about or anything;

That's good enough for me.

Advent
But, I do recall there being at least a couple of more quotes that do specifically call him the most powerful Sith Lord that we know about.

Good...

Advent
Besides, it's hard to ignore the tons of evidence that indicates he should be;

Many have tried. But His Majesty conquers all skeptics and foes!

Advent
Palpatine is basically the most profiled Sith Lord when it comes to his knowledge and power.

That's because he's the most important. Hell, the man tends to have profiles as long as Obi-Wan's or Anakin's in Wookieepedia, the official website, various Encyclopedias. He's also tended to be the most referenced; hell, there are more references of him in the Essential Atlas (I know: WTF?) than most characters.

No one else really cares about any other Sith other than Palpatine, with the exception of Vader.

Pop Culture doesn't care about Palpatine though. Really, he's one of the least iconic movie characters there is. Vader? Iconic. Yoda? Iconic. Boba Fett? I conic. Jubba The Hutt? Iconic. Obi-Wan, Yoda, Han Solo, Princess Leigha, R2D2, C3P0? All iconic? Palpatine? Who?

The Force doesn't care either, it credits everything the man did to Bane. Poor Palaptine... Cared so much about the dark side and the dark side didn't even know who he was. 😆

And Bane credits everything he did to Revan🙂

no

Anyway, it has been communicated to me that a certain party has questioned Palpatine's role in blunting Jedi sensitivity. Because my position is truly invincible and no pro-Palpatine argument can be defeated, I shall indulge the ignorant just this once:

"The darkness in the Force was no hindrance to the shadow in the Chancellor's office [Palpatine for the contextually inept]; it was the darkness. Wherever darkness dwelled, the shadow could send perception." -- Revenge of the Sith, page 321.

What does that even mean though? Sounds highly metaphorical. Sexy, ask Gideon via PM to explain it to you publicly in this thread so Gideon can respond please.

Originally posted by Advent
But, I do recall there being at least a couple of more quotes that do specifically call him the most powerful Sith Lord that we know about.

The only quote that I vaguely remembered was, of course, the one I misquoted. Of the three that I found, they were all nugatory. So, are there any more statements that aren't open to interpretation regarding Palpatine's power?