Create your own 'FC' ending to a storyline!

Originally posted by willRules
It only made excellent use of the tie ins for the very reason you said. It had to. It was essential to the main plot. FC was too convoluted to be explained in just the main series. 🙁

When you buy the FC tradeback or hardcover, you get it with Superman Beyond I think. Superman Beyond shouldn't be viewed as a tie-in, it's absolutely essential. The last issue of final crisis doesn't make a lick of sense without it. Should it be like this? Probably not. Does it diminish the story in any way when you read it as a whole? Of course not.

Originally posted by willRules
I say this as a massive Batman fan, whose jaw dropped to the floor in FC #6.

[B]The first two issues of Blackest Night have been more enjoyable than anything I read in Final Crisis. If Blackest Night sustains this quality, it will be a far, far superior story to Final Crisis.

My jaw didn't drop when Superman from alternate dimensions were being recruited. I didn't care for the zoo crew. I didn't gasp when Superman wearing an armour made of stories, fights a Monitor vampire for the sake of his wife's life.

However, when Hawkgirl told Hawkman she loved him, only to have a spear burst through her chest, I fell off my chair. When zombified heroes started ripping organs from established DCU characters, I thought that was ballsy of DC.

More ballsy than the death of characters that were just created for the event, like Mandrakk.

IMO, so far, Blackest Night is winning the "which storyline is cooler and more entertaining" contest. [/B]

you saying you weren't impressed by superman beyond?

Originally posted by Galvaclaw
As for blackest night. Really now? I read invincible so the super hero gore was nothing exciting. CHawkman and Hawk girl had already been killed off in final crisis and then that death was swiftly retconned, so no I wasn't particularly shocked the first time they died and I wasn't shocked the second time even if it was more bloody. it just felt pointless.

Well I felt the recruitment of parallel superman, the appearance of the zoo crew and the pax dei were pointless at what was supposed to pass for a climax for FC, when apparently just the GL corps were needed to put a final end the multiversal threat of a character created specifically for FC.

Ironically I found the stakes to be much bigger, much more interesting and much more entertaining for the death of two B/C-list heroes like the Hawks even over the potential collapse of the multiverse (which was the only link I could see that made it a "Crisis" event).

So yes, unsurprisingly I thought Blackest Night has so far been a much better quality of story telling.

Originally posted by -Pr-
you saying you weren't impressed by superman beyond?

Yeah, pretty much. Art was good, as Mahnke always is. I bought the hardcover to FC so I'm annoyed there were no 3D glasses, might have made up for what I thought was quite a poor story.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
When you buy the FC tradeback or hardcover, you get it with Superman Beyond I think. Superman Beyond shouldn't be viewed as a tie-in, it's absolutely essential. The last issue of final crisis doesn't make a lick of sense without it. Should it be like this? Probably not. Does it diminish the story in any way when you read it as a whole? Of course not.

I know and agree. It serves the story, but I was emphasising what you've just pointed out, that it shouldn't have to be like that. Paying customers should get the story they want to buy. ✅

Originally posted by willRules
I know and agree. It serves the story, but I was emphasising what you've just pointed out, that it shouldn't have to be like that. Paying customers should get the story they want to buy. ✅

But now we're bordering into a discussion of what people "should" get from a comic. Though I agree. If someone is so unfortunate as to not be able to afford Superman Beyond, then Final Crisis becomes a real letdown. But you, you're not even people! You didn't even LIKE Superman Beyond. I consider you less than scum uhuh

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
But now we're bordering into a discussion of what people "should" get from a comic. Though I agree. If someone is so unfortunate as to not be able to afford Superman Beyond, then Final Crisis becomes a real letdown. But you, you're not even people! You didn't even LIKE Superman Beyond. I consider you less than scum uhuh

I would be insulted but your taste in comics has already offended me enough 😛

Originally posted by willRules
Yeah, pretty much. Art was good, as Mahnke always is. I bought the hardcover to FC so I'm annoyed there were no 3D glasses, might have made up for what I thought was quite a poor story.

Respect = gone. 🙁

Originally posted by willRules
I would be insulted but your taste in comics has already offended me enough 😛

Seriously though, how can you not be moved by Superman Beyond?

I just didn't think it was all that fun. My least favourite bit was the residents of Limbo 🙁

Like everything in this discussion, opinion is everything 🙂

Originally posted by -Pr-
Respect = gone. 🙁

Initially I thought it might be that I'm not a big Superman fan and therefore too compromised in my bias. However, I just picked up Geoff John's crossover between Superman and the Legion of Superheroes and Mark Millar's Red Son mini-series.

Both were absolutely fantastic. 9 or 10/10 for both stories.

Originally posted by willRules
Initially I thought it might be that I'm not a big Superman fan and therefore too compromised in my bias. However, I just picked up Geoff John's crossover between Superman and the Legion of Superheroes and Mark Millar's Red Son mini-series.

Both were absolutely fantastic. 9 or 10/10 for both stories.

i just don't understand how you can't like Superman Beyond.

Superman Beyond is so good that it doesn't need Final crisis, but Final crisis needs it. Morrison describes it as his best Superman story and I'd agree with him him. It's one of my favourite comic books stories.

It's not for everyone, but calling a story where a giant robot Superman fights a cosmic vampire for the fate of all stories not fun? Well, we must have different definitions of fun.

Maybe a comic that has allusions to plato, M theory and meta fiction in general isn't fun for you guys, but it's fun for me.

For the people who use convoluted: For gods sake use a dictionary. It means intricate or complicated. The word on its own has no negative or positive meaning. The correct phrase would be it is too convoluted.

That however gives credence to the original assertion of Final crisis fans. You didn't understand it. You are complaining that the story was too complicated for you. So choose your words more carefully.

Originally posted by Galvaclaw
For the people who use convoluted: For gods sake use a dictionary. It means intricate or complicated. The word on its own has no negative or positive meaning. The correct phrase would be it is too convoluted.

For the people who think they know what convoluted means: For gods sake use a dictionary. It means unnecessarily complicated. The word on its own has a negative meaning. The incorrect phrase would be it is too convoluted, as that is a double-negative.

Originally posted by Galvaclaw
That however gives credence to the original assertion of Final crisis fans. You didn't understand it. You are complaining that the story was too complicated for you. So choose your words more carefully.

That however gives no credence to the original assertion of Final crisis fans. It can be complicated while still being understood. So choose your words more carefully.

Originally posted by Galvaclaw
Superman Beyond is so good that it doesn't need Final crisis, but Final crisis needs it. Morrison describes it as his best Superman story and I'd agree with him him. It's one of my favourite comic books stories.

It's not for everyone, but calling a story where a giant robot Superman fights a cosmic vampire for the fate of all stories not fun? Well, we must have different definitions of fun.

Maybe a comic that has allusions to plato, M theory and meta fiction in general isn't fun for you guys, but it's fun for me.

We most certainly have different definitions of fun. I prefer the super hero zombie kind. 😄

Originally posted by Galvaclaw
For the people who use convoluted: For gods sake use a dictionary. It means intricate or complicated. The word on its own has no negative or positive meaning. The correct phrase would be it is too convoluted.

That however gives credence to the original assertion of Final crisis fans. You didn't understand it. You are complaining that the story was too complicated for you. So choose your words more carefully.

Please don't patronize me or anyone else. I didn't like Final Crisis because it was TOO CONVOLUTED. I understood the story and still thought it was crap.

Yes it was too complicated. I understood it all. It wasn't too difficult to understand. I still thought it was a bad story.

Please don't be naive enough to think that I didn't like Final Crisis because I thought "Oh this is a complex commentary on meta-fiction and I'm too stupid to understand it therefore it's bad."

People can have different tastes to you and that's OK. I don't know how old you are but I hope for your sake this is a learning curve so you don't make these kind of wild and foolish accusations in a situation later in life where someone won't be as forgiving as me 🙂

As for the best Morrison Superman story, I preferred All Star Superman. High concepts executed in a much more entertaining manner.

Originally posted by theICONiac
What are you disappointed about? What were you expecting? My dislike of FC springs from expectations.

Somehow it feels like I'm reading a story that's up there just making excuses to have super fights. For such a big event the motivations seem weak.

I criticized Secret Invasion for its many pointless brawls and pointless tie ins but the Skrulls at least had a single great motivation for what they were doing.

I don't know, we'll just have to see how things go.

Originally posted by Galvaclaw
Superman Beyond is so good that it doesn't need Final crisis, but Final crisis needs it. Morrison describes it as his best Superman story and I'd agree with him him. It's one of my favourite comic books stories.

It's not for everyone, but calling a story where a giant robot Superman fights a cosmic vampire for the fate of all stories not fun? Well, we must have different definitions of fun.

Maybe a comic that has allusions to plato, M theory and meta fiction in general isn't fun for you guys, but it's fun for me.

I agree, Superman Beyond was a wonderful piece of work and truly an example of where Morrison shines as a writer. It gives a life to the idea of meta-fiction and succeeds at being a story at the same time. Frankly the story should have been more important to the main book rather than getting a handful of anti-climactic panels.

Originally posted by theICONiac
For the people who think they know what convoluted means: For gods sake use a dictionary. It means unnecessarily complicated. The word on its own has a negative meaning. The incorrect phrase would be it is too convoluted, as that is a double-negative.

con⋅vo⋅lut⋅ed

–adjective
1. twisted; coiled.
2. complicated; intricately involved: a convoluted way of describing a simple device.

Dictionary.com, Webster and Wiktionary disagree with you. Do you honestly think I didn't double check my assertion before I made it?

We most certainly have different definitions of fun. I prefer the super hero zombie kind.

Indeed. I have never been a huge fan of Zombie genre unless it's extremely well written. Like the walking dead for example.

"

Please don't be naive enough to think that I didn't like Final Crisis because I thought "Oh this is a complex commentary on meta-fiction and I'm too stupid to understand it therefore it's bad."

My aren't we defensive. Speaking of defensive...

People can have different tastes to you and that's OK. I don't know how old you are but I hope for your sake this is a learning curve so you don't make these kind of wild and foolish accusations in a situation later in life where someone won't be as forgiving as me

Let's forget for a second my first post in this thread concerned those who disliked Final crisis refusing to accept it wasn't objectively bad. I'll look at your 'advice' first.

Really though, attacking my age and claiming that my forum posting habits will inhibit my success in later life? Is that really the best you have?

Do act I act the same in real life as I do on this board? Of course not. I'm more respectful in real life and not because I'm some internet tough guy, it is because the people I have meaningful contact with are my friends or colleagues. You are not my friend, I don't know you or care about one way or the other. Which is why I have no need to placate you or attempt to get on your good side.

When have I suggested that Final crisis functions as a intelligence test, with which we can neatly divide our fandom into a smart half and a stupid half? However, the sheer venom directed at Final crisis is very telling.

Fine, you understood. I get that you prefer more straight forward storytelling, Never the less you can't deny that a large percentage of the people who didn't like it did so because they didn't understand it. Hence the cries of it being incomprehensible.

Originally posted by Galvaclaw
con⋅vo⋅lut⋅ed

–adjective
1. twisted; coiled.
2. complicated; intricately involved: a convoluted way of describing a simple device.

Dictionary.com, Webster and Wiktionary disagree with you. Do you honestly think I didn't double check my assertion before I made it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convoluted

"Convolute
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Convoluted)
Convolute means to roll up or to make something unnecessarily complex."

You double-checked your assertions? Someone must have gone in behind you and edited out all the malarky about the word being neither negative or positive. In your attempt to look like a smart-ass correcting someones grammer you wind up just looking like a plain ol' ass.

Originally posted by Galvaclaw
Do act I act the same in real life as I do on this board? Of course not. I'm more respectful in real life and not because I'm some internet tough guy, it is because the people I have meaningful contact with are my friends or colleagues. You are not my friend, I don't know you or care about one way or the other. Which is why I have no need to placate you or attempt to get on your good side.

*Sniff* I'm sure you just broke WillRules's heart...drylaugh

Originally posted by Galvaclaw
When have I suggested that Final crisis functions as a intelligence test, with which we can neatly divide our fandom into a smart half and a stupid half? However, the sheer venom directed at Final crisis is very telling.

Fine, you understood. I get that you prefer more straight forward storytelling, Never the less you can't deny that a large percentage of the people who didn't like it did so because they didn't understand it. Hence the cries of it being incomprehensible.

attentionwhore

http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/convoluted?view=uk

The oxford dictionary seems to agree with me. So your one source that disagrees with me makes me an arse? I'd say you've lost the argument when you resort to name calling. Since when were personal attacks and rewording my posts a valid counter argument? What a fine job of arguing you've done. I haven't seen this low a calibre of eloquence outside of 4chan in sometime.

I'm done here. At some point the conversation changed from discussing the merits of Final crisis to the bad man implied we weren't as smart as him. It's a waste of time for both us to continue trading insults.