Originally posted by Galvaclaw
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/convoluted?view=ukThe oxford dictionary seems to agree with me. So your one source that disagrees with me makes me an arse? I'd say you've lost the argument when you resort to name calling. Since when were personal attacks and rewording my posts a valid counter argument? What a fine job of arguing you've done. I haven't seen this low a calibre of eloquence outside of 4chan in sometime.
I'm done here. At some point the conversation changed from discussing the merits of Final crisis to the bad man implied we weren't as smart as him. It's a waste of time for both us to continue trading insults.
You started it there, Professor...
Originally posted by Galvaclaw
Let's forget for a second my first post in this thread concerned those who disliked Final crisis refusing to accept it wasn't objectively bad. I'll look at your 'advice' first.Really though, attacking my age and claiming that my forum posting habits will inhibit my success in later life? Is that really the best you have?
Do act I act the same in real life as I do on this board? Of course not. I'm more respectful in real life and not because I'm some internet tough guy, it is because the people I have meaningful contact with are my friends or colleagues. You are not my friend, I don't know you or care about one way or the other. Which is why I have no need to placate you or attempt to get on your good side.
When have I suggested that Final crisis functions as a intelligence test, with which we can neatly divide our fandom into a smart half and a stupid half? However, the sheer venom directed at Final crisis is very telling.
Fine, you understood. I get that you prefer more straight forward storytelling, Never the less you can't deny that a large percentage of the people who didn't like it did so because they didn't understand it. Hence the cries of it being incomprehensible.
You're calling me defensive when the bulk of your response is along the lines of "I'm not as insulting as I am off the message boards."
Well thank goodness for that.
As for you not caring about me.....I'll grin and bear it 🙂
And I merely brought up your age in response to what I considered to be some patronising and naive statements. If you consider it venomous and defensive to respond to rude statements with my own advice in an attempt to be helpful, then I guess you shouldn't really be throwing dictionary definitions at people, should you?
But you don't have to worry (not that you do, clearly.) I won't respond anymore. Like you, I'm also not that bothered by this conversation. Unlike you I do care whether people find me defensive, patronising or rude or not, whether it be on or off of a message board so I'll leave the thread to stop my side of the arguing.
As far as events go I think that FC was the best I have ever read.
That is if you read the Morrison tie ins also (essentially the TPB and the 2 Batman issues).
Difficult to understand?-No
Very different than the usual slugfest events like SI?-Yes (we were lucky at that)
As for BN. let's be serious it's only been 2 ISSUES!!!
How the hell are supposed to compare one complete story and one that's just starting.
Ans as an Aquaman (Orin) fan I have every reason to be far more excited for BN but that won't change my view for FC, even if BN is proven to be better (that would also make BN automatically the best event ever replacing FC for me)
Originally posted by comicfan11
As for BN. let's be serious it's only been 2 ISSUES!!!
How the hell are supposed to compare one complete story and one that's just starting.
I think there are a few things you can compare, even after only 2 issues.
The biggest one is the buildup to both series. So far, BN is (for me anyway) living up to its 2yr hype (that in itself has got to be a first...unless someone can correct me no other storyline in comics has had such an advertised buildup lasting 2yrs).
FC, on the other hand, had a bizarre, ill-defined buildup. Like the red-herring posters (...And Evil Shall Inherit The Earth) showing Superman Prime (in black costume) conversing with Kingdom Come Superman and Cyborg (Hank Henshaw) Superman. 😕
Originally posted by comicfan11
As far as events go I think that FC was the best I have ever read.That is if you read the Morrison tie ins also (essentially the TPB and the 2 Batman issues).
Difficult to understand?-No
Very different than the usual slugfest events like SI?-Yes (we were lucky at that)As for BN. let's be serious it's only been 2 ISSUES!!!
How the hell are supposed to compare one complete story and one that's just starting.Ans as an Aquaman (Orin) fan I have every reason to be far more excited for BN but that won't change my view for FC, even if BN is proven to be better (that would also make BN automatically the best event ever replacing FC for me)
Oh yes. FC was just good story telling, a good story is carried by the content of the action and there was plenty of content. It may not have been brawl after brawl but there was plenty going on (and there was a fair amount of brawling regardless).
- The ALE triggered across all means (electronic and biological).
-Billions of humans having their souls hollowed out, including the Spectre itself.
-Heroes and humans being possessed by dark gods.
-DC's no.1 black ops/espionage super group (checkmate) activating humanities' ultimate failsafe, to be unleashed only when the world is ending.
-Heroes sacrificing their very souls to save villains and their families.
-Creation itself crumbling and being twisted by the ultimate oppressor.
This was DC's biblical apocalypse, nothing like this was done before (except of course Rock of Ages which was unsurprisingly done by the same guy, but that wasn't as significant an event, nor did it have as big a cast).
Originally posted by theICONiac
I think there are a few things you can compare, even after only 2 issues.The biggest one is the buildup to both series. So far, BN is (for me anyway) living up to its 2yr hype (that in itself has got to be a first...unless someone can correct me no other storyline in comics has had such an advertised buildup lasting 2yrs).
FC, on the other hand, had a bizarre, ill-defined buildup. Like the red-herring posters (...And Evil Shall Inherit The Earth) showing Superman Prime (in black costume) conversing with Kingdom Come Superman and Cyborg (Hank Henshaw) Superman. 😕
I'll give you that.
DC and Didio did everything they could to royally **** up Morrison's vision.
Even Quesada couldn't do it better.
That was not a build up to an event. It was road to ruin.
When Morrison asked that the New Gods be off limits a certain DC Editor and his merry band of j@ck@sses did the exact opposite and started using them as often as they could.
By saying FC as an event I don't include crap like Countdown and the abomination that is Death of the New Gods.
Hell Didio even went to the whole "Naaah the Hawks didn't die in FC. They were just injured." just to satisfy Johns. THIS IS MONTY PYTHON LEVEL MADNESS and in a very cheap and bad way.
So basically FC is an AMAZING achievement if you take into consideration that DC unintentionally boycotted it's own event.
The same can't be said for BN though because DC is all over the place trying to make certain that Johns has all his wishes obeyed.
And yes you can't compare a whole event with 2 issues (plus some tie ins) no matter what. You simply can't. Unless you are a prophet or something. Because for all it's hyping (and as I said before I reaaaaly enjoy BN) and the 2 first amazing issues BN might turn out to be another Secret Invasion and that event is not even in the same league as FC.
Originally posted by Allankles
Oh yes. FC was just good story telling, a good story is carried by the content of the action and there was plenty of content. It may not have been brawl after brawl but there was plenty going on (and there was a fair amount of brawling regardless).- The ALE triggered across all means (electronic and biological).
-Billions of humans having their souls hollowed out, including the Spectre itself.
-Heroes and humans being possessed by dark gods.-DC's no.1 black ops/espionage super group (checkmate) activating humanities' ultimate failsafe, to be unleashed only when the world is ending.
-Heroes sacrificing their very souls to save villains and their families.
-Creation itself crumbling and being twisted by the ultimate oppressor.This was DC's biblical apocalypse, nothing like this was done before (except of course Rock of Ages which was unsurprisingly done by the same guy, but that wasn't as significant an event, nor did it have as big a cast).
I agree it was the most dense big event storyline I've read. Issues 4-6 were beyond sick. Darkseid rising and the multiverse going to hell with all the heroes helpless=pure comic book gold.
Originally posted by comicfan11
???In FC he brought the entire Universe to it's knees and had earth under his control for nearly a month.
What else did you want?
How about the promised changes DC was hyping?
COIE destroyed the multiverse.
IC restored it.
FC...uh...did away with the Monitors...and thats about it...
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Considering the Monitors had been around for just a few years at that point it's even more irrelevant.
Absolutely.
The CONVOLUTED storyline coupled with the lack of change at the end make FC a really lame-duck ending to the trilogy.
Like I said before, if FC was just some mini-series thrown into the DC Universe (like Marvel's Civil War or WWH) it may have not received anywhere near the disdain a lot of the DC faithful heap on it.
But it was supposed to be the 'ultimate' finale to the trilogy of 'Crisis's'. DC even went so far to compare it to the Lord of the Rings trilogy. I gathered from that statement that FC would have a comparable conclusion similar to Return of the King....COIE (FOTR) and IC (TT) were awesome but FC (ROTK) was the final - and best - installment in the overall storyline...and provided the most impact.
It simply did not live up to its predecessors in terms of impact. Maybe if Batman stayed dead it would - in a small way - justify itself.
it seems like a few people have gripes about the entirety of final crisis, mainly because of the last issue alone. meaning: the last issue was so jam packed/cluster f*cked with material, that it literally could have constituted 2-3 issues all by itself. for some, that seems to have left a bad enough taste in their mouth(s) that it made them not enjoy the rest of what FC had to offer.
but what you have to *try* to do is think about FC as a whole [ie. the preceeding issues in the main storyline, as well as the subsequent tie-ins.] it's when you take those into account that you can better appreciate the rather amazing story that was FC. take "superman: beyond" and "revelations" - not only were those two stories beautifully written, but they actually 'tied-in' to the main story, like 'tie-ins' should do.
imo, the FC tie-ins + FC itself = win.
Originally posted by theICONiac
How about the promised changes DC was hyping?COIE destroyed the multiverse.
COIE was reconstituting the silver age structure. As a story on its own, it was average.
Originally posted by theICONiac
IC restored it.
Same thing with Infinite Crisis. The story was just an excuse to set up a sensible structure to DC's mainline universe. The story again, was not that good.
Originally posted by theICONiac
FC...uh...did away with the Monitors...and thats about it...
FC had those monickers "the day evil won", and it lived up to them partially - if not entirely to the satisfaction of a few people (although I think you'd have to be overly optimistic to expect evil to win completely in the mainline continuity, without some lame "reset" plot device) .
The difference between FC and the other Crisis with the exception of Identity Crisis is that FC was actually a good story. A plot created primarily for entertainment purposes, and not an excuse just to organize the universe by the DC editorial.
FC set a benchmark of how to write a big event crossover imo. Focus on the juicy bits of the story, and avoid unnecessary tie-ins whose main agenda is not to build on the main plot.
Basically to me FC was like a tribute to interesting and ambitious story telling in comics, and of course it was a tribute to other things as well, like past artists, past great ideas/stories etc.
Originally posted by Allankles
COIE was reconstituting the silver age structure. As a story on its own, it was average.Same thing with Infinite Crisis. The story was just an excuse to set up a sensible structure to DC's mainline universe. The story again, was not that good.
FC had those monickers "the day evil won", and it lived up to them partially - if not entirely to the satisfaction of a few people (although I think you'd have to be overly optimistic to expect evil to win completely in the mainline continuity, without some lame "reset" plot device) .
The difference between FC and the other Crisis with the exception of Identity Crisis is that FC was actually a good story. A plot created primarily for entertainment purposes, and not an excuse just to organize the universe by the DC editorial.
FC set a benchmark of how to write a big event crossover imo. Focus on the juicy bits of the story, and avoid unnecessary tie-ins whose main agenda is not to build on the main plot.
Basically to me FC was like a tribute to interesting and ambitious story telling in comics, and of course it was a tribute to other things as well, like past artists, past great ideas/stories etc.
Originally posted by Allankles
FC set a benchmark of how to write a big event crossover imo. Focus on the juicy bits of the story, and avoid unnecessary tie-ins whose main agenda is not to build on the main plot.
Avoid unnecessary tie-in's?? You cannot understand the story without the tie-in's!
Originally posted by Allankles
Basically to me FC was like a tribute to interesting and ambitious story telling in comics, and of course it was a tribute to other things as well, like past artists, past great ideas/stories etc.
Besides you and a few others, who was DC's target audience in this? Certainly not new fans to DC...
Originally posted by theICONiac
Avoid unnecessary tie-in's?? You cannot understand the story without the tie-in's!Besides you and a few others, who was DC's target audience in this? Certainly not new fans to DC...
The only tie-in you need to read is "Beyond."
The target audience is the same people as every other crisis. It's not like IC would have been clear to a new fan either.