Originally posted by gogogadgetgoSuperman was pulled away from the hole or did you miss that part?
superman was shown to be being pulled in, but then ww goes, go take care of evil dude, then suddenly, WOOOSHHHH! superman goes flying off like no ones business.so, if he was being pulled in, how the hell did he go flying off like that?
also, that's a stupid anchor for gl
looks more like falling into the hole but didnt.
Originally posted by gogogadgetgoSo the feat where Thor pulls the serpent off the world doesn't count since it is a rope. That statement you just made was 😕
any feat with the lasso do not count. it is more than strenght at play, you can try to up play those feats and down play thor's all day long he is stronger than wonder woman. and thorr is at most as strong as superman period💃
Originally posted by Zeuodin
So the feat where Thor pulls the serpent off the world doesn't count since it is a rope. That statement you just made was 😕
Heh. He might as well have quoted you. How don't you not get it?
And are you comparing a very strong rope to the Lasso?
It's not unfounded. The Lasso defy physics. You can even see it glowing and all as she pulls John out (Although it might be doing that because of the art. Depends if it's glowing or not throughout the rest of the issue.). And hasn't the lose canceled out gravitational effects before?
Of course she might have only used it as a thick rope.
Oh, and that's not as impressive, as Beta Ray Bill's two black holes to the face feat.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Heh. He might as well have quoted you. How don't you not get it?And are you comparing a very strong rope to the Lasso?
It's not unfounded. The Lasso defy physics. You can even see it glowing and all as she pulls John out (Although it might be doing that because of the art. Depends if it's glowing or not throughout the rest of the issue.). And hasn't the lose canceled out gravitational effects before?
Of course she might have only used it as a thick rope.
Oh, and that's not as impressive, as Beta Ray Bill's two black holes to the face feat.
And I'm not talking about BRB. i'm talking about the impressiveness of Wonder Woman's strength in the situation. It was a cosmic level event and it took cosmic level strength. She pulled MM out of the Hole while Superman could not escape, he needed the help of GL. And Light was being pulled into the hole. I am merely highlighting the strength of her feat. It is a pulling feat. No magical boat is pulling her. Nothing. her own power.
Originally posted by Zeuodin
The Lasso has NEVER negated gravity. Ridiculous. Wonder Woman herself has been in a black hole and used the lasso to climb out and she literally had rips in her hand pulling herself out on the lasso. it was her shield that protected her and the human but the strength to pull herself out was hers and hers alone.And I'm not talking about BRB. i'm talking about the impressiveness of Wonder Woman's strength in the situation. It was a cosmic level event and it took cosmic level strength. She pulled MM out of the Hole while Superman could not escape, he needed the help of GL. And Light was being pulled into the hole. I am merely highlighting the strength of her feat. It is a pulling feat. No magical boat is pulling her. Nothing. her own power.
Hmm, I know I've read it somewhere. Although I might have gotten the Kyle Rayner negating gravitational effects with Wonder Woman's lasso enchanted when they were moving the planet confused because whenever I try to remember the instance hard, that pops up in my head.
Just saying, Beta Ray Bill had two Black Holes open in his face, was being stretched from each side by two black hole with an arm in each, and through sheer strength and no leverage pushes himself away from said black holes and tosses hammer.
Eh? Superman was very close from what I recall, and was almost pulled in like John was. Wonder Woman wasn't as close and tosser her lasso in. Did John not work his way up as well?
What's the issue number? I want to re-read it.
Magical boat. What the hell are you talking about?
Originally posted by quanchi112
He was lying as he said she could easily ward off Thor's lightning. The funny thing was you came along and showed how simple electricity affected her.
No, that is not what he directly said, and that is not what I said -- lightening/electrical attacks *do not* "easily" affect her - she is resistant to them, just not *as* resistant as Superman, et al. Diana has on numerous occasions be struck by electrical attacks and not been slowed by them; Amazo always adapts and uses the most effective *application* of an attack against its target(s) (just as a number of panels earlier he had adjusted his heat vision attack against Superman to the red-solar range, thus harming and weakening him), and in this case he no doubt attacked her with a powerful alternating current, which would paralyze as oppose to simply push away (as direct current does).
*My Point* to stating that to him was his particular wording was misleading (and no doubt the result of heated discussion); as far as his statement that Diana could easily resist Thor's lightening attacks, it should have been clarified/qualified by saying she would be using her bracers to resist the attacks, which she has often demonstrated against powerful mystic lightening/energy attacks in the past.
Was he "lying"? No, not at all. He merely exaggerated/ made an error in wording. It is not even an entirely inaccurate statement, given the specifics of the "battle" being discussed, but certainly needed to be qualified.
(And as I noted in my statement, which you so *conveniently* left out, my point to making the statement had to due with people (in this case, you) running wild with even the slightest error in wording or exaggeration, as if it somehow negates the other 99% of what has been posted...)
I have stated several times in a couple different threads relating to this, which should conceptually "shut down" most discussion about this: DC's official policy/statement for the past decade, is that Wonder Woman is second in strength only to Superman, putting her on par with Captain Marvel, Black Adam, most kryptonian females (PowerGirl and Supergirl) and similar beings. Does this mean that DC, as a company, is "wrong" about the character they own the rights to and have creative control over? 🙄 Thor can still be stronger than her (and I believe he is -- anyone saying she is as strong or stronger is just being a WW fanboi), but his strength is not *that* much greater than hers (meaning, he could be clearly stronger, but not to the degree that other factors don't mitigate this in terms of combat).
Originally posted by Zeuodin
What the heck doed the lasso have to do with anything? She's pulling on it. I guess Thor pulling the Midgard Serpent doesn't count since he used a rope? Oh and Black holes are impressive. It's one of the very basics of Herald Status. Silver Surfer is Impressive and he is the most powerful Herald.
The lasso has been shown at certain times to defy certain laws of physics or to allow for feats that would normally be impossible or improbable were it not for the existence of "magic" into the equation.
Case in point: The tugging of the planet Earth by MM, Supes and WW. The planet would have crumbled under the gravitational effects in play were it not for the "magic" equation introduced by the lasso. Thus, any and all feats that include the Lasso as part of said feat(s) are deemed unquantifiable and unreliable, and thus inadmissible as a PURE strength feat the same way as any Thor feats with Mjolnir in play cannot be considered a PURE strength feat unto themselves.
Also, I've seen the scan. It shows how brutal the effects of the Black hole was to Superman, MM and WW (who weren't even shown to be past the event horizon, it seems). Are you then saying that any being capable of functioning at the CORE of the Black Hole is then considered far beyond these characters?
Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Because IF black holes ARE as impressive in comics as they are in real life, then the Surfer would be the most powerful high herald in comics as he casually farts black holes all over the place.Joking aside, I'd like to see this feat (I can't find a scan of it) to determine context. IF the lasso was involved then this scan might even become disqualified as a purely strength feat.
First of all the black holes Heralds make are nothing to real black holes (whose masses are at least 1000 solar masses). They can't even make a 1 solar mass black hole.
Lastly,
SS can manipulate the energy of the black hole (he can negate the gravity and such). So it is more attributed to his energy manipulating powers vs. his sheer strength.
WW used real strength on a real black hole and SS use energy manipulation on a toy black hole. Big difference.
Originally posted by h1a8
First of all the black holes Heralds make are nothing to real black holes (whose masses are at least 1000 solar masses). They can't even make a 1 solar mass black hole.
A black hole's a black hole, unless you can prove that you somehow measured these Herald-made black holes by being there yourself, I'll just chalk this up as another one of your pro-DC biases.
Originally posted by h1a8
Lastly,
SS can manipulate the energy of the black hole (he can negate the gravity and such). So it is more attributed to his energy manipulating powers vs. his sheer strength.
And the lasso didn't? You're "Mr. Let's-use-Real-World-Physics" here. So how exactly do you explain the "lasso planet-pulling" feat via real world physics again?
Originally posted by h1a8
WW used real strength on a real black hole and SS use energy manipulation on a toy black hole. Big difference.
Any proof that WW used "real strength" without the lasso's magic? Any proof that the herald feat was a "toy black hole"? Any proof that THIS scan's black hole was a "real" black hole? Any proof of anything at all? None? Lemme guess... "It's DC so it's REAL" "It's Marvel so it's a TOY black hole!!!" Wheeee!
Guess we're gonna have to chalk this up to another one of your biased double standards.
Originally posted by h1a8
All of this is moot anyway since any feat against a being of variable strength is void. So Thor vs. SS cant be used to gauge Thor's strength.
So you admit that at top strength level (via the Black Hole feat) that SS is much stronger than Supes, WW OR MM?
Originally posted by h1a8
Thus WW is stronger.
Stating that one feat is inadmissible and THEN JUMPING to a conclusion without proof or argumentation speaks volumes of your irrational bias.
Originally posted by D_Dude1210
The lasso has been shown at certain times to defy certain laws of physics or to allow for feats that would normally be impossible or improbable were it not for the existence of "magic" into the equation.Case in point: The tugging of the planet Earth by MM, Supes and WW. The planet would have crumbled under the gravitational effects in play were it not for the "magic" equation introduced by the lasso. Thus, any and all feats that include the Lasso as part of said feat(s) are deemed unquantifiable and unreliable, and thus inadmissible as a PURE strength feat the same way as any Thor feats with Mjolnir in play cannot be considered a PURE strength feat unto themselves.
That is a misperception: the lasso in no way negates the expressed strength required to pull/hoist a given target (which is why on the occasions where other non-superstrong characters have happened to have had/used the lasso, they couldn't move anything greater than normal for them; that is, it didn't allow them to tow a car, et al,).
Both Zeuodin and I have referenced Diana being drawn into a blackhole (via a device) when she worked at TacoWhiz (I know... shitty, but funny, subplot); the *lasso* could escape the draw of the blackhole, but Diana had to use her strength to stop from getting sucked into oblivion, and while her hands were hurt in the process, she still succeeds in resisting, but due to her own strength, not to an outside force, as such...
The lasso *itself* is not as adversely affected by gravity, and "binds all whom it encircles", even to the extent of pulling out-of-sync temporal anomolies into sync (as it has done against Zoom). The lasso may allow for the "negation" of physics only in the context of *allowing* expressed strength/power to perform a feat that might otherwise be conventionally impossible due to relative physical laws -- Diana, MM, and Supes still had to have the raw power to perform their great feat of strength, in whatever context. A fine point, but still very much an important distinction. The lasso is described as being of "unlimited length" (as it can encompass any area) and "unlimited strength" (any amount of force can be applied to/through it); only ultra-powers such as Darkseid, Galactus, and similar, have any chance of being able to harm or alter it (as even in cases where the lasso has been "broken", it reconstitutes itself with little difficulty -- "The Golden Perfect" JL story being more about its spiritual violation than a physical one, which is why once Diana awakened to a greater truth/understanding, it was whole and perfect again).
Originally posted by tideoftime
That is a misperception: the lasso in no way negates the expressed strength required to pull/hoist a given target (which is why on the occasions where other non-superstrong characters have happened to have had/used the lasso, they couldn't move anything greater than normal for them; that is, it didn't allow them to tow a car, et al,).Both Zeuodin and I have referenced Diana being drawn into a blackhole (via a device) when she worked at TacoWhiz (I know... shitty, but funny, subplot); the *lasso* could escape the draw of the blackhole, but Diana had to use her strength to stop from getting sucked into oblivion, and while her hands were hurt in the process, she still succeeds in resisting, but due to her own strength, not to an outside force, as such...
The lasso *itself* is not as adversely affected by gravity, and "binds all whom it encircles", even to the extent of pulling out-of-sync temporal anomolies into sync (as it has done against Zoom). The lasso may allow for the "negation" of physics only in the context of *allowing* expressed strength/power to perform a feat that might otherwise be conventionally impossible due to relative physical laws -- Diana, MM, and Supes still had to have the raw power to perform their great feat of strength, in whatever context. A fine point, but still very much an important distinction. The lasso is described as being of "unlimited length" (as it can encompass any area) and "unlimited strength" (any amount of force can be applied to/through it); only ultra-powers such as Darkseid, Galactus, and similar, have any chance of being able to harm or alter it (as even in cases where the lasso has been "broken", it reconstitutes itself with little difficulty -- "The Golden Perfect" JL story being more about its spiritual violation than a physical one, which is why once Diana awakened to a greater truth/understanding, it was whole and perfect again).
You cannot prove the sciences and forces that the lasso can and cannot affect. The same way I cannot prove or disprove the sciences surrounding Thor's hammer. It's magic. You didn't invent the lasso and you didn't define the "rules" that it falls under. Unless you have a scan expressly defining the lasso's limitations then all this is simple speculation and conjecture in order to make your argument valid.
Posting an overly long (yet irrelevant) post doesn't change this. You cannot use real world physics when it suits you (the forces of a black hole) then ignore it when it weakens your argument (the pulling of the planet).
I, for one, think the use of real world physics in comics is moronic. But if you're going by that path, all I can do is show you the flaws of your logic.
Originally posted by D_Dude1210
You cannot prove the sciences and forces that the lasso can and cannot affect. The same way I cannot prove or disprove the sciences surrounding Thor's hammer. It's magic. You didn't invent the lasso and you didn't define the "rules" that it falls under. Unless you have a scan expressly defining the lasso's limitations then all this is simple speculation and conjecture in order to make your argument valid.Posting an overly long (yet irrelevant) post doesn't change this. You cannot use real world physics when it suits you (the forces of a black hole) then ignore it when it weakens your argument (the pulling of the planet).
I, for one, think the use of real world physics in comics is moronic. But if you're going by that path, all I can do is show you the flaws of your logic.
???
😕
I know you quoted me in your response, but are you sure you're responding to the right poster (meaning that I am the person you have been debating with)? I have said before that using real world physics is off-point in a comic setting; I am just keeping in line with how the rest of the thread has referenced things.
And I think you need to go back and re-read what I posted, as your response doesn't make sense in terms of what I posted: I am not "using real-world physics" when it suits me, and then "ignoring it when it [supposedly] weakens my arguement". I am using a correlation/composite of many instances over the past 20 years in terms of Diana's lasso. Nothing I said about the blackhole references (in WW or JL) in anyway conflicts with what I said about (moving celestial bodies, et al). The lasso has demonstrated that *it* often ignores the laws of physics (that is, even in the comics it has done things that ordinary people would describe as "impossible" by physics, such as extending itself out of blackhole, etc). It does not, nor has it ever, enhanced the power or strength (or what have you) of any user, but has demonstrated the ability to allow a user to apply strength/power they possess in a manner that transcends the perceived laws of the universe (even in comicland), such as allowing Supes, et al, to move a celestial body, *if the strength/power is there to back such a feat*, even though no amount of pulling (in the real or comic world) would allow the moon, earth, etc, to be moved in such a manner.
Those two ideas are in no way contradictory, and simply reflect how the lasso has affected things in past issues of WW, JL, and others. (And, of course, that is not always a consistant thing, depending on the writer and story/setting content and direction. That is true for all characters everywhere, DC or Marvel, Wonder Woman or Thor...)
EDIT: And in what way is what I posted "irrelevant"? It's responding to a part of the this discussion that is a point of contention, and has been debated by more than one poster. How can my response be irrelevant when it helps in establishing a critical point of Diana's feats of strength?
I think you just misread my post. And as far as length goes -- others have posted answers/links as long as mine, in this and its "sister" thread, so that itself is a hollow accusation.
Originally posted by D_Dude1210No. SS can affect gravity right? If so then he can negate the gravity of a black hole. Thus no strength is needed to escape it. Also we seen SS get almost overloaded when absorbing a red giant star. A red giant star has less mass than our sun (1 solar mass). So any black hole they can make must be less than 1 solar mass.
So you admit that at top strength level (via the Black Hole feat) that SS is much stronger than Supes, WW OR MM?
With that said, I do admit that at top strength level SS can either be close or exceed a normal Superman in strength. But I feel SS can not ever come close to a sun dipped (or even maybe a sun amped) Superman.
I didn't jump to any conclusions. Admissible Strength feats prove who is stronger.
Stating that one feat is inadmissible and THEN JUMPING to a conclusion without proof or argumentation speaks volumes of your irrational bias.
Originally posted by D_Dude1210Black holes are of different masses. No two black holes are the same. This is a fact. By using the fact that Heralds can't absorb more than 1 solar mass (which is proven on panel) then it is impossible for them to make a black hole of more than 1 solar mass.
A black hole's a black hole, unless you can prove that you somehow measured these Herald-made black holes by being there yourself, I'll just chalk this up as another one of your pro-DC biases.
Well I didn't bring the lasso feat up so that is not my baby. But reason tells me that the lasso can not and has not ever negated gravity. If something is shown then it is true if something isn't shown then it is speculation. I believe SS has shown to affect gravity. The lasso hasn't. If SS hasn't been shown to do this then I retract everything.
And the lasso didn't? You're "Mr. Let's-use-Real-World-Physics" here. So how exactly do you explain the "lasso planet-pulling" feat via real world physics again?
LOL you are funny. I like you.
Any proof that WW used "real strength" without the lasso's magic? Any proof that the herald feat was a "toy black hole"? Any proof that THIS scan's black hole was a "real" black hole? Any proof of anything at all? None? Lemme guess... "It's DC so it's REAL" "It's Marvel so it's a TOY black hole!!!" Wheeee!Guess we're gonna have to chalk this up to another one of your biased double standards.
I'm just going by the amount of energy that a herald can absorb as my reasoning. If a herald can create a 1000 solar mass black hole with less than a star's mass then I see a problem.
Originally posted by h1a8
Black holes are of different masses. No two black holes are the same. This is a fact. By using the fact that Heralds can't absorb more than 1 solar mass (which is proven on panel) then it is impossible for them to make a black hole of more than 1 solar mass.
It was never proven on-panel that Heralds can ONLY absorb 1 solar mass. It was proven that they CAN absorb up to 1 solar mass but are in no way limited by this. Also, since when does the amount a herald absorbs directly correlate to the size of the black hole they can create? You basically assumed that again, didn't you?
Originally posted by h1a8
Well I didn't bring the lasso feat up so that is not my baby. But reason tells me that the lasso can not and has not ever negated gravity. If something is shown then it is true if something isn't shown then it is speculation. I believe SS has shown to affect gravity. The lasso hasn't. If SS hasn't been shown to do this then I retract everything.
You brought up real world physics being applied to comic book physics. Now that your argumentation doesn't support your claims you backtrack and try to disavow that logic. Now, how EXACTLY can the lasso NOT affect gravity and THEN allow the tugging of the planet? Explain this or admit that your "real world physics" logic is a proven fallacy.
Originally posted by h1a8
LOL you are funny. I like you.I'm just going by the amount of energy that a herald can absorb as my reasoning. If a herald can create a 1000 solar mass black hole with less than a star's mass then I see a problem.
It was never proven what the limitations of the Surfer's absorption/generation powers are. It HAS been proven on-panel, however, to be FAR FAR greater than 1 star's worth of power as being drained a "star's worth" of energy didn't affect the Surfer in any way. Heck, he didn't even notice it.
Lemme guess, you just assumed this, didn't you?