Wonder Woman Vs Thor -Who is stronger?

Originally posted by h1a8
No. SS can affect gravity right? If so then he can negate the gravity of a black hole. Thus no strength is needed to escape it. Also we seen SS get almost overloaded when absorbing a red giant star. A red giant star has less mass than our sun (1 solar mass). So any black hole they can make must be less than 1 solar mass.

Post scans of this "red giant" absorption feat. I seem to recall this being done in a non-canon crossover.

Originally posted by h1a8
With that said, I do admit that at top strength level SS can either be close or exceed a normal Superman in strength. But I feel SS can not ever come close to a sun dipped (or even maybe a sun amped) Superman.

You have no proof of this.

Originally posted by h1a8
I didn't jump to any conclusions. Admissible Strength feats prove who is stronger.

Post these "admissible strength feats" please.

Dude 1220: Uhhh...

I am starting to think that you confused my post/exact position with h1a8's...

We're two different people, with different degrees of opinions on certain points, but still different...

I at no point said Diana was as strong, or stronger than Thor; he's stronger, without a doubt (though not to the degree that many people think...)

Originally posted by tideoftime
???
😕

I know you quoted me in your response, but are you sure you're responding to the right poster (meaning that I am the person you have been debating with)? I have said before that using real world physics is off-point in a comic setting; I am just keeping in line with how the rest of the thread has referenced things.

I meant to say that you cannot prove/disprove the sciences/logic/rules behind the lasso. We all know that it has been used as a catch-all plot device on many occasions and I DO understand what you're trying to get to here. My point is that to make this lasso admissible as a strength feat but to deny the use of Thor's hammer hitting feats as strength feats is a biased double standard as the two are extremely similar in how they are used. Allow neither or both.

Originally posted by tideoftime
And I think you need to go back and re-read what I posted, as your response doesn't make sense in terms of what I posted: I am not "using real-world physics" when it suits me, and then "ignoring it when it [supposedly] weakens my arguement". I am using a correlation/composite of many instances over the past 20 years in terms of Diana's lasso. Nothing I said about the blackhole references (in WW or JL) in anyway conflicts with what I said about (moving celestial bodies, et al). The lasso has demonstrated that *it* often ignores the laws of physics (that is, even in the comics it has done things that ordinary people would describe as "impossible" by physics, such as extending itself out of blackhole, etc). It does not, nor has it ever, enhanced the power or strength (or what have you) of any user, but has demonstrated the ability to allow a user to apply strength/power they possess in a manner that transcends the perceived laws of the universe (even in comicland), such as allowing Supes, et al, to move a celestial body, *if the strength/power is there to back such a feat*, even though no amount of pulling (in the real or comic world) would allow the moon, earth, etc, to be moved in such a manner.

And like I said, the hammer has very much the same qualities. Like I said, allow both or neither.

Originally posted by tideoftime
Those two ideas are in no way contradictory, and simply reflect how the lasso has affected things in past issues of WW, JL, and others. (And, of course, that is not always a consistant thing, depending on the writer and story/setting content and direction. That is true for all characters everywhere, DC or Marvel, Wonder Woman or Thor...)

Since the same can be said for Thor's hammer then we are in agreement that BOTH their feats are admissible as strength feats?

Originally posted by tideoftime
EDIT: And in what way is what I posted "irrelevant"? It's responding to a part of the this discussion that is a point of contention, and has been debated by more than one poster. How can my response be irrelevant when it helps in establishing a critical point of Diana's feats of strength?

My point was simply that the introduction of "magic" into the equation makes the feat unreliable and, thus, inadmissible. Due to that point, I found that the long explanation on the possible rules/laws governing the lasso to be irrelevant. Tho, I will say that you came up with a very well thought of and put together post.

Originally posted by tideoftime
I think you just misread my post. And as far as length goes -- others have posted answers/links as long as mine, in this and its "sister" thread, so that itself is a hollow accusation.

I apologize, and I admit, I'm guilty of coming up with long posts myself. Just that I feel a lot of the items you posted were purely your theories on the relative laws that govern a comic book item and such theories shouldn't be used as a point in a debate unless you can prove the factuality in them.

Let's agree on one thing: The use of real world physics in comics is moronic, correct?

Originally posted by tideoftime
Dude 1220: Uhhh...

I am starting to think that you confused my post/exact position with h1a8's...

We're two different people, with different degrees of opinions on certain points, but still different...

I at no point said Diana was as strong, or stronger than Thor; he's stronger, without a doubt (though not to the degree that many people think...)

Hehe. Well we agree on that thing, at least.

My whole point is that the Lasso and Mjolnir introduce a "magic" element into the equation. The very nature of their abilities makes accurate measurement of certain feats difficult as the very nature of how the operate defies the laws of physics on many occasions and the fact of the matter is, strength feats and comparisons need to be either grounded in physics or at least be unbiased, quantifiable conclusions based on feats.

Edit. I believe there should be a debate and THEN a concensus on whether or not these said feats are admissible.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
I meant to say that you cannot prove/disprove the sciences/logic/rules behind the lasso. We all know that it has been used as a catch-all plot device on many occasions and I DO understand what you're trying to get to here. My point is that to make this lasso admissible as a strength feat but to deny the use of Thor's hammer hitting feats as strength feats is a biased double standard as the two are extremely similar in how they are used. Allow neither or both.

And like I said, the hammer has very much the same qualities. Like I said, allow both or neither.

Since the same can be said for Thor's hammer then we are in agreement that BOTH their feats are admissible as strength feats?

My point was simply that the introduction of "magic" into the equation makes the feat unreliable and, thus, inadmissible. Due to that point, I found that the long explanation on the possible rules/laws governing the lasso to be irrelevant. Tho, I will say that you came up with a very well thought of and put together post.

I apologize, and I admit, I'm guilty of coming up with long posts myself. Just that I feel a lot of the items you posted were purely your theories on the relative laws that govern a comic book item and such theories shouldn't be used as a point in a debate unless you can prove the factuality in them.

Let's agree on one thing: The use of real world physics in comics is moronic, correct?

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
I meant to say that you cannot prove/disprove the sciences/logic/rules behind the lasso. We all know that it has been used as a catch-all plot device on many occasions and I DO understand what you're trying to get to here. My point is that to make this lasso admissible as a strength feat but to deny the use of Thor's hammer hitting feats as strength feats is a biased double standard as the two are extremely similar in how they are used. Allow neither or both.

And like I said, the hammer has very much the same qualities. Like I said, allow both or neither.

Since the same can be said for Thor's hammer then we are in agreement that BOTH their feats are admissible as strength feats?

My point was simply that the introduction of "magic" into the equation makes the feat unreliable and, thus, inadmissible. Due to that point, I found that the long explanation on the possible rules/laws governing the lasso to be irrelevant. Tho, I will say that you came up with a very well thought of and put together post.

I apologize, and I admit, I'm guilty of coming up with long posts myself. Just that I feel a lot of the items you posted were purely your theories on the relative laws that govern a comic book item and such theories shouldn't be used as a point in a debate unless you can prove the factuality in them.

Let's agree on one thing: The use of real world physics in comics is moronic, correct?

(Something weird is going on with this post --hopefully this posts correctly)

1: The flaw with comparing Mjolner with Hestia's Lasso is that the former can enhance/empower physical assaults (though some argue against that, I think the counter-arguement is fatuous), while the latter has *never* enhanced the power of its user(s), in any interpretation since the Post-Crisis reboot, *except* for the *perception* of enhancement given in a handful of cases, which is a misperception of what occured (Zeuodin has posted a number of scans relevent to this). Now, personally, I don't care about it, conceptually, except that the arguement about the lasso is being used to "cheapen" Diana's feats, and that is just *cheap* fanboism, as I (at least) haven't held any Mjolner feats (even though they do have an effect) against the "Thor" side of the debate... which is bizarre, for me, as I have been saying Thor is stronger the entire time...

2: I can tell by this response that you are probably confusing me/my posts with MORE than one other poster, in concept at least, which is funny to me (not laughing at you, but the situation...)

3: Like I have been saying before, comic physics and real world physics should be distant cousins -- they can get married and have kids, as far as I am concerned, with no birth defects 'cus they ain't really anywhere near related...

4: Oh, and no -- these are not "theories" about the lasso I am posting, but the average of simple observation of many instances over the past 20 years; I have no ability to scan, so I am crippled in that regard for my arguements, but like I said Zeuodin has made several posts/links that go along with what I am saying, and I know (at least for myself) that the lasso acts in the manner I described (or doesn't act that way, at all, if the writer isn't "going there" in terms of the story; note though, that that doesn't negate the "not enhancing anyone's effective strength" concept -- it has *NEVER* done that, so I stand by my point with that...)

You apologized, which is more than I seem to see anyone around here do, so I more than apologize for any confusion or whatnot that my posts have made -- Shake on it? 🙂

Originally posted by tideoftime
(Something weird is going on with this post --hopefully this posts correctly)

1: The flaw with comparing Mjolner with Hestia's Lasso is that the former can enhance/empower physical assaults (though some argue against that, I think the counter-arguement is fatuous), while the latter has *never* enhanced the power of its user(s), in any interpretation since the Post-Crisis reboot, *except* for the *perception* of enhancement given in a handful of cases, which is a misperception of what occured (Zeuodin has posted a number of scans relevent to this). Now, personally, I don't care about it, conceptually, except that the arguement about the lasso is being used to "cheapen" Diana's feats, and that is just *cheap* fanboism, as I (at least) haven't held any Mjolner feats (even though they do have an effect) against the "Thor" side of the debate... which is bizarre, for me, as I have been saying Thor is stronger the entire time...

Not trying to cheapen Diana's feats in any stretch. I just find it biased that the feats the Thor has been able to perform with Mjolnir might be disqualified on assumptions that the hammer enhances the striking power of its user (w/c, admittedly, it DOES, it being a magical hammer and all). We, however, it would be more fair if we asses Diana's pulling/moving feats without using the lasso then compare it to her using it. If she has equal feats to that of her lasso, then we can correctly conclude that it DOESN'T help her in any of these said pulling/moving feats. I, for one, believe that it DOES help her with pulling and moving (it being a magical rope and all), but that's simply opinion that I can neither prove nor disprove.

Originally posted by tideoftime
2: I can tell by this response that you are probably confusing me/my posts with MORE than one other poster, in concept at least, which is funny to me (not laughing at you, but the situation...)

I do admit that I might have (mistakenly) taken your reply as a defensive positional stand on this debate rather than an unbiased conceptual clarification (w/c I now believe it is). It lead to a more defensive answer than I would have liked and I do admit to mistakes when I make them. 🙂

Originally posted by tideoftime
3: Like I have been saying before, comic physics and real world physics should be distant cousins -- they can get married and have kids, as far as I am concerned, with no birth defects 'cus they ain't really anywhere near related...

Good to hear. At least on this concept we can agree. However, I think I am slated more towards the "let's not use real world physics in comics at all" position and I see you as slated a tad bit more towards the other side. I do believe we're not too far from each others' respective stands so I will not argue with you here.

Originally posted by tideoftime
4: Oh, and no -- these are not "theories" about the lasso I am posting, but the average of simple observation of many instances over the past 20 years; I have no ability to scan, so I am crippled in that regard for my arguements, but like I said Zeuodin has made several posts/links that go along with what I am saying, and I know (at least for myself) that the lasso acts in the manner I described (or doesn't act that way, at all, if the writer isn't "going there" in terms of the story; note though, that that doesn't negate the "not enhancing anyone's effective strength" concept -- it has *NEVER* done that, so I stand by my point with that...)

Well, if the lasso doesn't enhance her strength, then I'm sure someone (doesn't have to be you as I know that really isn't what you're trying to get to here) can pull out/link me to comparable feats with her without the lasso and then use those are the top feats comparative to Thor (who HAS feats w/o Mjolnir).

Originally posted by tideoftime
You apologized, which is more than I seem to see anyone around here do, so I more than apologize for any confusion or whatnot that my posts have made -- Shake on it? 🙂

Shake! I like how you argue, very factual and very well put together. Could work on the length a bit tho. Shorter posts don't hurt, y'know... 😉

Superman > Wonder Woman> Thor

Originally posted by h1a8
If something is shown then it is true if something isn't shown then it is speculation.

this from the dude who says the alien was "lying" in the thor infinite gravity feat coz he can't accept it and starts claiming "lies,lies, all lies"

double standards for the win!

Originally posted by iceman24567
Superman was pulled away from the hole or did you miss that part?

soooo...your saying that gl anchored his hook onto the spaceship and the spaceship pulled superman out?

so, spaceship>superman?

gotcha!
🤣

Originally posted by tideoftime
(Something weird is going on with this post --hopefully this posts correctly)

1: The flaw with comparing Mjolner with Hestia's Lasso is that the former can enhance/empower physical assaults (though some argue against that, I think the counter-arguement is fatuous)

of course it can, its a hammer. i'm more inclined to believe that the strength of the strike is enhanced due to thor's strength and power, and not the magical properties of the hammer. but to each his own.

Originally posted by manx422
Superman > Wonder Woman> Thor

ROFL

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
A black hole's a black hole, unless you can prove that you somehow measured these Herald-made black holes by being there yourself, I'll just chalk this up as another one of your pro-DC biases.

And the lasso didn't? You're "Mr. Let's-use-Real-World-Physics" here. So how exactly do you explain the "lasso planet-pulling" feat via real world physics again?

Any proof that WW used "real strength" without the lasso's magic? Any proof that the herald feat was a "toy black hole"? Any proof that THIS scan's black hole was a "real" black hole? Any proof of anything at all? None? Lemme guess... "It's DC so it's REAL" "It's Marvel so it's a TOY black hole!!!" Wheeee!

Guess we're gonna have to chalk this up to another one of your biased double standards.

Originally posted by Zeuodin
If you knew anything about wonder woman at all instead of looking to demean feats you would know that there was a spell cast on the lasso for that feat when they used it to tow the earth. You tried and failed. The only thing the spell did was lesson the strain on the earth. It didn't negate any gravity. They still had to pull with all their might.

yup, coz the lasso already has the enchantment to negate gravity. 🤣

Originally posted by gogogadgetgo
yup, coz the lasso already has the enchantment to negate gravity. 🤣

Before Her second upgrade, she had to use all of her strength to hold up this bridge. This was around the time Superman was also weaker. So it would seem everyone got a down shift to match Superman's. As we can see, the lasso does not and never has negated gravity. the attempt has been thus, derailed. She clearly says this will take every ounce of strength Demeter granted her at birth. Now this was a very low class 100's feat. Probably around Colossus level.

Originally posted by Zeuodin
No. Sorry. I have every issue of it's use. I have the explaining of it's powers and what it does. If It negated gravity, she wouldn't have had such a hard time holding up a bridge when she got her 2nd upgrade. There had to be an actual spell cast on it by Zatanna so that it would stretch over the world. And Batman was the one who told them where to place the lasso so that it wouldn't crush the planet. Next time you should know the story before you know better. Besides, She's already pulled herself out of a black hole. Too bad you didn't know that.

what? you didn't notice? she was having less of a hard time holding the bridge. why, without the enchantment to negate gravity, wonder woman would have never been able to hold the bridge at all 🙄

and that wasn't a black hole she pulled herself out from, it was just a hole 😛

Originally posted by gogogadgetgo
what? you didn't notice? she was having less of a hard time holding the bridge. why, without the enchantment to negate gravity, wonder woman would have never been able to hold the bridge at all 🙄

and that wasn't a black hole she pulled herself out from, it was just a hole 😛

Originally posted by Zeuodin
Before Her second upgrade, she had to use all of her strength to hold up this bridge. This was around the time Superman was also weaker. So it would seem everyone got a down shift to match Superman's. As we can see, the lasso does not and never has negated gravity. the attempt has been thus, derailed. She clearly says this will take every ounce of strength Demeter granted her at birth. Now this was a very low class 100's feat. Probably around Colossus level.

see the lasso glowing? it was actually helping levitate the bridge so wonder woman could hold it. the glowing proves it 😱

Originally posted by Zeuodin
you missed the point. There was a spell cast on the rope for the earth pulling feat so that the earth wouldn't crumble. It didn't negate the sun's pull on the earth. Or else they would have just left the lasso on the planet and not had to pull.

of course they had to pull, if they didn't then the earth would have just stayed floating around where it was.

why the lasso evenlessen the earths mass by half i believe making i easier for the trio to pull it ✅