Reed Richards & Dr Doom Vs Thanos

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Fair point. But you act as if Thanos willed his survival. Doom's done stuff like that, I don't think that's how Thanos came back though.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I think you have your retcons crossed. Even when he was revealed to be an incomplete cube being, he was his own universe. And when Molecule Man later battled him, their battle rocked the Multiverse. But as I said before, the history is way screwed up. The only real constant it seems is Molecule Man for what its worth.

Retcon 2: Kosmos (and thus beyonder) is far below celestial level.

IG is above celestial level. By far. Doom absorbed a lesser power and couldn't control it.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I think he was just screwing with Warlock saying he needed to sacrifice himself, because he didn't want any of his old acquaintances coming after him since he was planning on turning his life around.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Retcon 1: He was an incomplete cube and most of the high-end cosmics were just pretending to be weaker then him. Then, he became kosmos who is more powerful than Beyonder.

Retcon 2: Kosmos (and thus beyonder) is far below celestial level.

IG is above celestial level. By far. Doom absorbed a lesser power and couldn't control it.

Beyonder =/= Kosmos =/= the energies Dr. Doom stole.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
It's not huge because it has nothing to do with Doom's ability to prep against Thanos. You use this scene to compare how Thanos prepped against Akhenaten and how Doom prepped against Akhenaten. You keep failing to admit that Akhenaten prepped for Doom and didn't prep for Thanos. Not only that, TOAA meant for Thanos to gain THOTU. [b]Hence, there's no point in using those events to prove anything. Huge point, friend.
No. Because he was an incomplete being, as explained completely in Fantastic Four #319. Molecule Man reveals that Doom would have controlled it had he been complete.
He survived by editorial mandate. His self-sacrifice was probably the one good result out of Marvel Universe: The End and even that wasn't preserved.

Beyonder's power was wildly beyond the IG's power. Secret Wars II may have been retconned. The scope of power that Doom absorbed in Secret Wars was never retconned. Frankly speaking, the continuity is a bit of a mess. Maybe more will be revealed in Dark Avengers where Molecule Man makes an appearance. [/B]

Doom prepped and lost. How often has Thanos prepped and lost? I'll let you think on it.

Thanos still put himself in that situation and still achieved his goal while Doom did not. It's a bottom line thing and Doom comes up short.

Thanos wanted the ig and got it. Doom wanted it twice and came up short both times. Do you sense a pattern developing here?

Ok, but it still doesn't change the fact the beyonder is small potatoes compared to the ig.

It still doesn't change the fact an all out Galactus crushes Doom in combat. An all out Surfer would completely trash the guy.

Ig>Beyonder.

Originally posted by K Von Doom
The point still stands though, how one handles the end prize has little to do with their ability to obtain it. If Doom ruled subjugated Earth then later gets bored and gives it back, does it take away the achievement that he did so?

Thanos used a weapon to defeat a being that was weaker than that weapon. Dr Doom used a man-made machine to take Galactus' power then proceed to go toe-to-toe with the, then, supreme being whom he knew little about. Which is more impressive?

During Infinity War, timing defeated Doom. If Doom/Kang arrived 3 seconds sooner, he would have won. If Kang had defeated Warlock, he would have won.

Doom caught Galactus by surprise. Thanos made another Galactus clone screwing around. I think we both know what it more impressive. A random Thanos experiment clone almost completely destroyed asgard. The guy craps out more dangerous clones than what the real Doom is capable of imo.

Timing is everything. Doom was three seconds short which in all intents and purposes is horribly miscalculating the situation.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Fair point. But you act as if Thanos willed his survival. Doom's done stuff like that, I don't think that's how Thanos came back though.
I think you have your retcons crossed. Even when he was revealed to be an incomplete cube being, he was his own universe. And when Molecule Man later battled him, their battle rocked the Multiverse. But as I said before, the history is way screwed up. The only real constant it seems is Molecule Man for what its worth.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Doom prepped along with the heroes during the ig saga. Guess what he came up with nada, nothing, zilch, zero. he was just another body scored/defeated on the battlefield while Thanos lowered his power only to put on a show for death. Doom still lost horribly with all the rest. Warlock led the charge against Thanos not Doom. They both are on another level when it comes to preparation in the universe.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Doom prepped and lost. How often has Thanos prepped and lost? I'll let you think on it.

Thanos still put himself in that situation and still achieved his goal while Doom did not. It's a bottom line thing and Doom comes up short.

Thanos wanted the ig and got it. Doom wanted it twice and came up short both times. Do you sense a pattern developing here?

Otherwise, compare how Doom performed when the IG wasn't fully assembled. In which case, there is no comparison because Doom never tried. Reed did though. And he didn't need an Infinity Well or an upgrade by Death. The only pattern I'm seeing here is you keep avoiding very simple plot points to make strained and bogus comparisons that have nothing to do with anything.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Ok, but it still doesn't change the fact the beyonder is small potatoes compared to the ig.

It still doesn't change the fact an all out Galactus crushes Doom in combat. An all out Surfer would completely trash the guy.

Ig>Beyonder.

Originally posted by quanchi112
A Celestial has been referenced as being a lot more powerful than any cc being.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
What does this have to do with anything? Did Thanos ever confront a full IG user? Nebula. How'd he fair then? Got one-shotted. Again, what does this prove about anything?
Yeah. Prepped against a wielder of the full IG. So if you really want to compare and put both players on an even keel, then compare how Thanos performed against a wielder of the full IG. Namely Nebula.

Otherwise, compare how Doom performed when the IG wasn't fully assembled. In which case, there is no comparison because Doom never tried. Reed did though. And he didn't need an Infinity Well or an upgrade by Death.
Not at all. And frankly speaking, both Doom and Reed have feats beyond Thanos' when you take away all the "TOAA manipulates all events to make it so."
Beyonder =/= Kosmos.

Thanos recovered most of his gems by out thinking his opponents he didn't go around beating foes into submission.

They have also had a lot more appearances. Reed also completely failed when attempting to take down the WW Hulk. 😂

Doom also looked like a complete chump after he stole the pc and tried leaving earth.

When both Thanos and Doom are involved in a story Thanos always looked better as in more prepared, successful, better leader, etc. than Vic.

It's really a matchup Doom can't win.

Kinda makes you wonder to, eh? TOAA felt Thanos was the better man for the job than Doom. The supreme being realizes Thanos is better so why won't you?

Celestial>Beyonder=Kosmos.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Complete speculation on your part. But you're free to prove so.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I don't think Kosmos was at all stronger than Beyonder. Kosmos wasn't even stronger than Molecule Man. I'm pretty sure you have your retcons and what was actually retconned crossed up.

Beyonder =/= Kosmos =/= the energies Dr. Doom stole.

Fantastic Four #319: They meet Beyonder in his own universe. He's revealed as a half CC. Molecule Man is the other half and they merge to form Kosmos. Then Molecule Man is expelled, powerless.

Fantastic Four Annual #23: Kosmos (and beyonder) is said to be far below a celestial.

Somewhere later: Owen spontaneously manifests his power, pulls beyonder out of Kosmos, and beats the shit out of him. Hey, don't ask me.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Thanos also eventually aided and was intricate in taking Magus down. Doom was an utter failure when he prepped against Thanos in that situation. He also completely failed against Magus even though he had Kang's aid and was underneath Magus' radar.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Thanos eventually aided taking Nebula down. Thanos also eventually aided and was intricate in taking Magus down. Doom was an utter failure when he prepped against Thanos in that situation. He also completely failed against Magus even though he had Kang's aid and was underneath Magus' radar.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Thanos recovered most of his gems by out thinking his opponents he didn't go around beating foes into submission.

They have also had a lot more appearances. Reed also completely failed when attempting to take down the WW Hulk. 😂

So what? First you harp about how Thanos has greater feats. You tried to do it by making faulty comparisons that ignored specific plot points. Then you tried doing it by citing sheer scope of feats. The former was addressed already. The latter you now dismiss by focusing on something completely off-topic.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Doom also looked like a complete chump after he stole the pc and tried leaving earth.

When both Thanos and Doom are involved in a story Thanos always looked better as in more prepared, successful, better leader, etc. than Vic.

Only if you ignore the specific plot-points to make your inane comparisons. See above.

Originally posted by quanchi112
It's really a matchup Doom can't win.

Kinda makes you wonder to, eh? TOAA felt Thanos was the better man for the job than Doom. The supreme being realizes Thanos is better so why won't you?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Celestial>Beyonder=Kosmos.

Originally posted by galactusischere
Gotta disagree with you there.
Doom and Kang WERE NOT on Magus's radar. He didn't even know what hit him. and then Doom turned on Kang before Kang could turn on Doom, so he basically outsmarted him. Doom then went on to give Magus a beating and make him sumbit the IG. His plan only failed when Eternity and big G convinced LT to give back the IG's powers. If he had delayed it by 10 secs doom would have gotten the Infinity Gauntlet.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I said I think that's why. The actual reason is unknown because it was never conclusively stated anywhere.

Originally posted by King Kandy
OK, this is what happened...

Fantastic Four #319: They meet Beyonder in his own universe. He's revealed as a half CC. Molecule Man is the other half and they merge to form Kosmos. Then Molecule Man is expelled, powerless.

Fantastic Four Annual #23: Kosmos (and beyonder) is said to be far below a celestial.

Somewhere later: Owen spontaneously manifests his power, pulls beyonder out of Kosmos, and beats the shit out of him. Hey, don't ask me.

Go argue with Mr Master about this.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Doom also aided in taking Nebula down. So what? Why do you keep ignoring the most simple plot points?! And so what about Doom not taking the IG from Magus? What does this have to do with anything?
So what? You wanted to compare analogous situations and you're not happy with the result, that's your problem.

So what? First you harp about how Thanos has greater feats. You tried to do it by making faulty comparisons that ignored specific plot points. Then you tried doing it by citing sheer scope of feats. The former was addressed already. The latter you now dismiss by focusing on something completely off-topic.
So what? Seriously, what does this have to do with anything? Thanos himself admitted how he's been a complete chump in his endeavors. At least when it comes to the PC, Doom's able to usurp and manipulate it, unlike Thanos.

Only if you ignore the specific plot-points to make your inane comparisons. See above.
TOAA picked Thanos as being perfect because of Thanos' inherent flaw. Don't conflate his flaw with some sense of superiority. That's from Thanos' own mouth.
Seriously. Not at all.

You are downplaying the mad titan. I won't stand for it. Thanos used his brains to defeat the elders and easily outsmarted the GrandMaster who was aware of his presence.

I have dismissed nothing. You want to ignore the glaringly obvious, success and failure.

So what? Pc is small potatoes to Thanos. The guy has experimental guns that have trapped Thor lying around his bachelor pad. Thor annihilated Surfer prior to him acquiring the pgem.

What are you talking about? Thanos was the only one who could have achieved this. It was stated in the story. Thanos was needed while Doom wasn't.

What retcon am I missing then? This was directly referenced.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Doom is never a major player when Thanos is involved. He always takes a back seat when they are both in the same story. Thanos ends up being pivotal while Doom ends up being a background character. Doom failed which has to do with everything. Failure and success is the major issue here. Doom is quite familiar with one while Thanos is familiar with the other.

You are downplaying the mad titan. I won't stand for it. Thanos used his brains to defeat the elders and easily outsmarted the GrandMaster who was aware of his presence.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I have dismissed nothing. You want to ignore the glaringly obvious, success and failure.

Originally posted by quanchi112
So what? Pc is small potatoes to Thanos.

Originally posted by quanchi112
What are you talking about? Thanos was the only one who could have achieved this. It was stated in the story. Thanos was needed while Doom wasn't.

Originally posted by quanchi112
What retcon am I missing then? This was directly referenced.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Hawkeye has outsmarted the damn Grandmaster. Rulk stomped his face too. Oh noez!!! They must be superior to Thanos who took several pages to do so! Only, that doesn't work because I'm ignoring several crucial plot-points when I make this inane comparison. This is exactly what you've been doing except that you actually believe you're not doing anything wrong.
Irony...
... defined. Yeah, when Doom succeeds and Thanos fails, on pretty much the only thing they both endeavored on a fair playing field (except Thanos even had Annihilus and all his tech), guess what you decide to do? Surprise surprise.
Yeah, cuz TOAA needed someone he could dupe. Whoopdie-doo.
You're not missing a retcon, just butchering one of the retcons to fit your interpretation.

You are being rather hypocritical.

Thanos hadn't failed. Annihilus was growing impatient and Thanos learned of his true plans anyways.

No, only Thanos could achieve this and Thanos still turned this into a positive for himself. He still came out on top.

Feel me in then.

Originally posted by quanchi112
The point is Thanos has been successful and has always been a bigger player in all of these stories which has both of these characters within them.

You are being rather hypocritical.

Thanos hadn't failed. Annihilus was growing impatient and Thanos learned of his true plans anyways.

No, only Thanos could achieve this and Thanos still turned this into a positive for himself. He still came out on top.

Feel me in then.

And how am I being hypocritical when I'm accounting for context? Every single situation you've tried to compare Doom and Thanos has been utterly flawed because you keep ignoring how the scenario was already massively skewed in Thanos' favor. And when I counter with specific situations where both players are on an even keel, you act like it doesn't matter?

Thanos never failed? You mean he would have eventually learned how to strip the POwer Cosmic and imbue others with it? Even putting aside that you have absolutely no evidence to suggest that, then whatever, Doom did it faster than Thanos with less resources. Fact. You started the comparison war, so live with it. And stop projecting your argument's glaring weaknesses onto mine.

TOAA picked Thanos because he was the one most likely to fall into the trap that TOAA set. Thanos' own words, which were made absolutely clear in the story.

And Beyonder =/= Kosmos =/= energies that Doom stole. Stop conflating the concepts.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
And Doom and Reed have the bigger feats. Sorry if you don't like the stories that aren't Thanos-centric. That's your problem, not mine.

And how am I being hypocritical when I'm accounting for context? Every single situation you've tried to compare Doom and Thanos has been utterly flawed because you keep ignoring how the scenario was already massively skewed in Thanos' favor. And when I counter with specific situations where both players are on an even keel, you act like it doesn't matter?

Thanos never failed? You mean he would have eventually learned how to strip the POwer Cosmic and imbue others with it? Even putting aside that you have absolutely no evidence to suggest that, then whatever, Doom did it faster than Thanos with less resources. Fact. You started the comparison war, so live with it. And stop projecting your argument's glaring weaknesses onto mine.

TOAA picked Thanos because he was the one most likely to fall into the trap that TOAA set. Thanos' own words, which were made absolutely clear in the story.

And Beyonder =/= Kosmos =/= energies that Doom stole. Stop conflating the concepts.

You are ignoring the most important factor of all. The point is whether they know about Thanos' involvement or Doom's Thanos succeeds while Doom fails. Thanos' schemes have been far grander. Doom has set out to accomplish the things Thanos has already accomplished anyways and he still comes up short.

Have we ever seen Doom spy on Thanos? Just saying. Thanos is always a step ahead it seems and even when Doom isn't on his opponent's radar he still comes up short. Try as hard as you want, but you can't ignore it.

We have discussed situations where the situation has been in Doom's favor and he still comes up short.

Thanos didn't fail in that task. He discovered Annihilus' true goal and abandoned the project. Quit ignoring that crucial context to hype old Vic.

Doom and Reed have more feats than Thanos because they have many more appearances. They also have many more failures. Thanos' feats and accomplishments are grander and when both of these characters are involved in the same story Thanos always plays a much more pivotal role than Doom.

Doom backed himself into a corner against Ak while Thanos ended up on the winning side against the Magus who created a Thanos doppleganger not a Doom one to be his right hand man.

Thanos was picked because he was the only one who could do it. Quit ignoring it just because it drives you crazy.

I put up a scan that clearly states Celestials blow cc's out of the water and yet you ignore it. You are truly beaten up and down ye you refuse to admit it. I enjoy this.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/marveltheend4kebbin08-4.jpg

I alone had the will and training to accomplish this seemingly impossible feat. Key words are I and alone.

Thanos take both Von Doom and Richards to the Pimpslap Academy

Originally posted by quanchi112
Sorry you don't like direct comparisons between the two characters and have to harp about stories in which Thanos wasn't involved to cling to.

Comparing Dr Doom fighting against Nebula to Thanos fighting against Nebula. Direct comparison.

Comparing Dr Doom prepping against Akhenaten, who had prepped against Dr Doom already, to Thanos prepping against Akhenaten secretly. Indirect comparison.

Comparing how Dr Doom did when figuring out the Power Cosmic to how Thanos did when figuring out the Power Cosmic. Direct comparison.

It's not a hard concept to grasp. Just because you blatantly skew all your comparisons in your mind for your character's favor doesn't make it cogent argumentation which I have to accept. Frankly, I feel like I'm patronizing you by lecturing you on what would be immediately obvious to anybody. But since I'm not going to accuse you of lying, I'm going to have to assume you don't know what you're doing wrong. I'll keep trying to dumb it down.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I put up a scan that clearly states Celestials blow cc's out of the water and yet you ignore it. You are truly beaten up and down ye you refuse to admit it. I enjoy this.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/marveltheend4kebbin08-4.jpg

[B]I alone had the will and training to accomplish this seemingly impossible feat. Key words are I and alone. [/B]

Thanos' self-aggrandizing doesn't mean much when you actually take into context what he specifically said. Key word is "seemingly." Not only that, but Thanos himself talks about what a hollow victory it was later on:

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/3352/marveltheend5kebbin02im8.jpg

and here

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/7483/mute0101dh0.jpg

and here

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/795224/T5.jpg.html

... what?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
[b]Comparing Dr Doom prepping against Thanos w/ full IG to Thanos prepping against the Elders of the Universe to obtain the IG. Indirect comparison.

Comparing Dr Doom fighting against Nebula to Thanos fighting against Nebula. Direct comparison.

Comparing Dr Doom prepping against Akhenaten, who had prepped against Dr Doom already, to Thanos prepping against Akhenaten secretly. Indirect comparison.

Comparing how Dr Doom did when figuring out the Power Cosmic to how Thanos did when figuring out the Power Cosmic. Direct comparison.

It's not a hard concept to grasp. Just because you blatantly skew all your comparisons in your mind for your character's favor doesn't make it cogent argumentation which I have to accept. Frankly, I feel like I'm patronizing you by lecturing you on what would be immediately obvious to anybody. But since I'm not going to accuse you of lying, I'm going to have to assume you don't know what you're doing wrong. I'll keep trying to dumb it down.
Beyonder =/= Kosmos =/= energies that Dr Doom stole. I don't enjoy repeating myself, but what can I do? You obviously need to reread it for yourself to be convinced or have someone else explain it to you because you simply don't read what I write.

Thanos' self-aggrandizing doesn't mean much when you actually take into context what he specifically said. Key word is "seemingly." Not only that, but Thanos himself talks about what a hollow victory it was later on:

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/3352/marveltheend5kebbin02im8.jpg

and here

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/7483/mute0101dh0.jpg

and here

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/795224/T5.jpg.html

... what? [/B]

You were chosen because of your will.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/TheEnd06-15_Tato.jpg

What must be done you alone must accomplish.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/TheEnd06-16_Tato.jpg

Here Thanos finds the proverbial loophole and betters himself because of this experience. He grew, upgraded, and restored his former armada.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/Thanos0110-3.jpg

Doom failed against Thanos along with the rest of the group he piggybacked himself to. He lost and Thanos barely noticed him. There's a reason Thanos gets to these sources of power before Doom. He's better than him.

Comparing Thanos' role against Nebula to Doom's role and who was more significant is a direct comparison.

Comparing Doom's failure when targeted to Thanos prevailing when targeted against the Magus is a direct comparison.

Thanos abandoned this goal the moment he discovered his true intentions. Quit bringing this up like Thanos couldn't do so and like he admitted defeat.

I got it the first few times. What you don't seem to get is the ig>Celestials>cc's.

Can't get much simpler than that.

Doom couldn't handle a much weaker power source than the ig. He's small time compared to Thanos and always will be the villain of the week.

Ps. Don't ever let me catch you twisting another Thanos feat into something with scans of him despairing over the situation again. Ever.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Did you honestly think I'd let you get away with this?

[B]You were chosen because of your will.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/TheEnd06-15_Tato.jpg[/b]

Originally posted by quanchi112
[B]What must be done you alone must accomplish.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/TheEnd06-16_Tato.jpg[/b]

Originally posted by quanchi112
Here Thanos finds the proverbial loophole and betters himself because of this experience. He grew, upgraded, and restored his former armada.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/Thanos0110-3.jpg

I jest, I jest. Anyway, you refuse to let context detract from highly compartmentalized feats within the story. And I use the term "compartmentalized" very purposefully. It's like you're hiding them from the rest of the story. So Thanos got THOTU and not Doom? So what? You don't care to acknowledge that TOAA never meant for Doom to have it and laid this trap for Thanos. Nor do you care to acknowledge that Thanos does not consider this a victory in any sense. Despite your exhortations and Warlock's pity, Thanos' own words are quite telling: "tricked," "insane joke," "foolishly," "defeat," "humiliation." These are his words, not mine.

You can accuse me of projecting some petty vitriol onto the events of Marvel Universe: The End, but really, all I'm doing is simply reading Thanos' own account on-panel. And tbh, while victory may be in the eye of the beholder, we are dealing with Thanos and his perspective is telling.

So while you may try to use his gaining of THOTU as some sort of superior feat that Doom couldn't accomplish in the context of this debate, it's my opinion (derived from Thanos'😉 that it's pretty much a non-feat and not really something to be proud of. The self-sacrifice you could be proud of... until oops... no self-sacrifice. Meh.