Reed Richards & Dr Doom Vs Thanos

Started by KuRuPT Thanosi9 pages

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
KuRuPt Thanosi: Well, I appreciate your position. However, let me present a couple of considerations:

[b]1) The "canon narration" is by Thanos, and it does come early on in the storyline. Just by virtue of it being self-narration, that should immediately force you to consider whether or not it is self-aggrandization.
2) At the same time, Thanos attaches the adjective, "seemingly," to "impossible feat," and you can read that to be an absolute qualifier to the entire statement.
3) Later on, he ultimately reveals he was completely set up by TOAA. Taken together, I think it's very reasonable to argue that these circumstances could cast doubt on the earlier self-narration's reliability.

Now, taking all that into consideration, the main reason I think that TOAA's set-up should be doubted for its reliability is because of how 4) Thanos, himself, characterizes the entire ordeal. I've posted his words several times before. He himself does not consider the whole affair to be worthy of any acclaim.

Now, in response to your point about Warlock's statement, the same exact reasoning applies. I do characterize Adam Warlock as someone whose statements should be reliable, all things considered equal. However, here, Thanos outright rejects Adam Warlock's characterization.

Taken altogether, while it's possible Thanos was the only one capable because of his prodigious will, there are too many circumstances that cast that premise into doubt for my tastes. Furthermore, while I have been defending my positions vigorously, I am not discounting Thanos' will completely. He's got plenty of willpower feats absent such circumstances. And neither do I characterize his statement as complete bs'ing. Indeed, I interpreted his use of the phrase "seemingly impossible" as a very deliberate qualifier, i.e., "there's a catch though." [/B]

Well my friend, we aren't that far off on our positions. I do believe Thanos was meant to find it by the TOAA, and that alone can make for some quantifiers. I don't think it was some great prep work on Thanos part to find it and acquire it. It think that he was choosen to do so. We are on the same page on that. What I would have you consider is this... You can't really call Thanos saying he was choosen because of his experience with Ultimate Power.. self aggrandizing. He wasn't boasting about his feats and experience with the IG just stating a fact on why he believes he was choosen. That seems to fit perfectly with certain requirements to wield such an awesome power. It is very logical to think he was choosen because of such experiences. I don't consider that self aggrandizing. Furthermore, consider that he was also confused once he figured out he was choosen to find the Heart and that by itself through him for a loop. He then didn't know what to believe. However, as you point out, Warlock is a very reliable source and he clearly feels Thanos was choosen because of his will. That alone might not be enough if he didn't have the Will-power feats you mention. However, he does, and thus that fits perfectly with another requirement to wield such a power. All in all, I think we both agree on most things.. just interrupt some lines differently. Good to see you back man

Besides, doesnt Reed own a infinity gem now anyway?

By the way... considering the stipulations of the thread... I think Doom and Reed would win. Both top tier in the intellect and prep department. That would give them the majority for an unaware Thanos.

Originally posted by Nihilist
The celestial order and Akhenaten were not able to absorb the Hotu as is was too much power(or words to that effect) thats why it took Akhenaten over 2000 years to master it which was quick compared to what it took the celestial order.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Did you miss Akh taking a whole lot of time to absorb much less power in the story?
it taking akhenaton, a normal human being with no prior superhuman prowess, "x amount of time" to adjust to his portion of omnipotence, holds absolutely no bearing on what i previously stated.

again, thanos was the only being we witnessed, who tried to fully absorb the heart. thus to make a claim that no other character(s) in marvel could have duplicated the aforementioned, is ludicrous.

Originally posted by Galan007
it taking akhenaton, a normal human being with no prior superhuman prowess, "x amount of time" to adjust to his portion of omnipotence, holds absolutely no bearing on what i previously stated.

again, thanos was the only being we witnessed, who tried to fully absorb the heart. thus to make a claim that no other character(s) in marvel could have duplicated the aforementioned, is ludicrous.

While everything you said is true that nobody else has done such a thing I would point a few things out my friend. First, we've seen what happened to Doom when he tried to gain the Beyonders power... Not the same power to be sure, but a similar "God" like power. Furthermore, the story to me makes it clear that Thanos was CHOOSEN because of his will and experience with an ultimate power. Those things wouldn't have been said if just anybody could do it. That imo is also a bit on the ludicrous side to assume. Not saying you are, just saying.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
First, we've seen what happened to Doom when he tried to gain the Beyonders power... Not the same power to be sure, but a similar "God" like power.
ODG has addressed this.

Originally posted by Mindset
ODG has addressed this.

I saw. Nobody is disputing Doom's will and certainly not me. As a matter a fact, I gave them the win. However, he wasn't able to handle the power and that is what the comic portrayed. Regardless, I wasn't comparing him to Thanos. Just saying that others have tried to gain such powers and weren't able to control them. They aren't even the same powers or circumstances as I said.

Originally posted by Galan007
it taking akhenaton, a normal human being with no prior superhuman prowess, "x amount of time" to adjust to his portion of omnipotence, holds absolutely no bearing on what i previously stated.

again, thanos was the only being we witnessed, who tried to fully absorb the heart. thus to make a claim that no other character(s) in marvel could have duplicated the aforementioned, is ludicrous.

Thanos specifically states that the celestial order had to filter the hotu power and absorb it through instruments because they could not physically accept the naked energies, yet Thanos had spent his entire life housing massive of might within his physical self.

He also stated that he alone had the will and training to accomplish this seemingly impossible feat(when he states this he had already absorbed the power allowing the knowledge of the what,when and how of the situation)

Originally posted by Galan007
in all fairness, no other character(s) ever tried to absorb THOTI in it's entirety.
You said characters while Akh was another character. Thanos had the will and the training alone to accomplish this. It was explained in the story and backed up by Warlock that Thanos was the man for the job. If you want to ignore all that and form your own opinions by all means do so.

Originally posted by Galan007
it taking akhenaton, a normal human being with no prior superhuman prowess, "x amount of time" to adjust to his portion of omnipotence, holds absolutely no bearing on what i previously stated.

again, thanos was the only being we witnessed, who tried to fully absorb the heart. thus to make a claim that no other character(s) in marvel could have duplicated the aforementioned, is ludicrous.

There.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Thanos being a bigger player than Reed is debatable, even on the pure macro scale. This isn't Thanos prepping against Reed and Doom. It's Reed and Doom prepping against Thanos. That's several times you've obfuscated the circumstances set by the thread starter.
Galan007 can speak for himself, but you should consider that Akhenaten was a normal human Egyptian schlub.
🙄 If you'd like, then you and I can do a controlled battlezone-style debate over whether it was 616 Doom in Secret Wars.

Frankly, I've never found attention-gaining to be absolutely indicative of any substance. A child crying wolf gets a lot of attention too. That result doesn't necessarily imbue his actions with any inherent meaningfulness though.

Thanos is going after a prize for so he will be prepared for whatever comes his way. He won't be sitting on his ass like he was when Thor was teleported right in his living room. He even easily dealt with him which Strange was unable to do without being prepared.

He said no other characters. He was wrong.

I already have a battlezone coming up. I don't have any time to spare. Feel free to ask Mr. Master though.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I saw. Nobody is disputing Doom's will and certainly not me. As a matter a fact, I gave them the win. However, he wasn't able to handle the power and that is what the comic portrayed. Regardless, I wasn't comparing him to Thanos. Just saying that others have tried to gain such powers and weren't able to control them. They aren't even the same powers or circumstances as I said.
Yea, ODG addressed why Doom wasn't able to handle the power.

Originally posted by Mindset
Yea, ODG addressed why Doom wasn't able to handle the power.

His interpretation?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Because he was an incomplete being, as explained completely in Fantastic Four #319. Molecule Man reveals that Doom would have controlled it had he been complete.
...

Originally posted by Mindset
...

A recton which while valid, doesn't change the fact that at the time he wasn't made to handle the power because he couldn't. A lot of things were rectonned and that had to be as well.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
A recton which while valid, doesn't change the fact that at the time he wasn't made to handle the power because he couldn't. A lot of things were rectonned and that had to be as well.
😬

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Well my friend, we aren't that far off on our positions. I do believe Thanos was meant to find it by the TOAA, and that alone can make for some quantifiers. I don't think it was some great prep work on Thanos part to find it and acquire it. It think that he was choosen to do so. We are on the same page on that. What I would have you consider is this... You can't really call Thanos saying he was choosen because of his experience with Ultimate Power.. self aggrandizing. He wasn't boasting about his feats and experience with the IG just stating a fact on why he believes he was choosen. That seems to fit perfectly with certain requirements to wield such an awesome power. It is very logical to think he was choosen because of such experiences. I don't consider that self aggrandizing. Furthermore, consider that he was also confused once he figured out he was choosen to find the Heart and that by itself through him for a loop. He then didn't know what to believe. However, as you point out, Warlock is a very reliable source and he clearly feels Thanos was choosen because of his will. That alone might not be enough if he didn't have the Will-power feats you mention. However, he does, and thus that fits perfectly with another requirement to wield such a power. All in all, I think we both agree on most things.. just interrupt some lines differently. Good to see you back man
Well, to the extent that you and others believe that he was literally stating truth when he stated that only he could do it (without the "seemingly" qualifier), then it is boasting. Whether its completely justified is difficult to discern with so many surrounding circumstances. Also, a minor nitpick, but I don't believe he was speaking of the Infinity Gauntlet experience, since that involved external control and Thanos is referring to storing energies within his person (this doesn't necessarily diminish his long career of personally storing energies in his person, mind you). In any case, the statement's truth is just not reliable enough for me given TOAA's deliberate machinations and what appears to be Thanos' own refutations/rebuffings. And I think you'll agree, unless Thanos' will made him the only man for the job, the entire thing is a non-feat orchestrated by THOTU. We'll just have to agree to disagree in this instance, friend.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
A recton which while valid, doesn't change the fact that at the time he wasn't made to handle the power because he couldn't. A lot of things were rectonned and that had to be as well.
Not quite able to discern what your position is on this, but in IMHO, it's not fair to use Doom's inability to contain Beyonder's power as support for the congruence between Thanos handling THOTU and Akhenaten taking 1000 years to handle a fraction of THOTU. Due to Beyonder's actions right before sending him back to Secret Wars, Doom was missing a fair portion of his memories and this resulted in him being "incomplete." As Beyonder was about to restore the memories, Molecule Man and the Cube Beings intercede and they and Doom all confirm that given another chance, Doom would be able to handle Beyonder's energies:

So correlating Doom's original performance with Beyonder's energies (where he's handicapped) and Akhenaten's performance (a normal ancient Egyptian schlub) and comparing them to Thanos' ability to acclimate to THOTU immediately is a bit of a forced comparison.

Originally posted by Mindset

Yea, ODG addressed why Doom wasn't able to handle the power.


He addressed it with ill-information.

Originally posted by Galan007

again, thanos was the only being we witnessed, who tried to fully absorb the heart. thus to make a claim that no other character(s) in marvel could have duplicated the aforementioned, is ludicrous.


That's what the story makes us understand though.

So yea, ONLY Thanos was able to handle the power.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi

While everything you said is true that nobody else has done such a thing I would point a few things out my friend. First, we've seen what happened to Doom when he tried to gain the Beyonders power... Not the same power to be sure, but a similar "God" like power. Furthermore, the story to me makes it clear that Thanos was CHOOSEN because of his will and experience with an ultimate power. Those things wouldn't have been said if just anybody could do it. That imo is also a bit on the ludicrous side to assume. Not saying you are, just saying.


👆

Originally posted by Nihilist

Thanos specifically states that the celestial order had to filter the hotu power and absorb it through instruments because they could not physically accept the naked energies, yet Thanos had spent his entire life housing massive of might within his physical self.

He also stated that he alone had the will and training to accomplish this seemingly impossible feat(when he states this he had already absorbed the power allowing the knowledge of the what,when and how of the situation)


✅ 👆

Originally posted by quanchi112

I already have a battlezone coming up. I don't have any time to spare.

Feel free to ask Mr. Master though.


🙂

I'll take that up any day.