Reed Richards & Dr Doom Vs Thanos

Started by Mr Master9 pages

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Not quite able to discern what your position is on this, but in IMHO, it's not fair to use Doom's inability to contain Beyonder's power as support for the congruence between Thanos handling THOTU and Akhenaten taking 1000 years to handle a fraction of THOTU. Due to Beyonder's actions right before sending him back to Secret Wars, Doom was missing a fair portion of his memories and this resulted in him being "incomplete." As Beyonder was about to restore the memories, Molecule Man and the Cube Beings intercede and they and Doom all confirm that given another chance, Doom would be able to handle Beyonder's energies:

So correlating Doom's original performance with Beyonder's energies (where he's handicapped) and Akhenaten's performance (a normal ancient Egyptian schlub) and comparing them to Thanos' ability to acclimate to THOTU immediately is a bit of a forced comparison.


None of those scans confirm
that Doom would be able to handle a partial Cube being's power (what Doom stole)

According to MM only Doom thought he would be able to handle it.

MM, Kubik and Shaper made no assertions as to whether that was true or not:

"you were incomplete, just as you were when you tried to sustain his power before,
but I can see that once you have a complete mind,
you expect you'll know how to do it right
."

You can't say Doom would be able to contain Beyonder's power in FF#319,
and somehow relate that to the power he couldn't contain in Secret Wars.

Secret Wars Beyonder is Pre-Retcon Beyonder,
while FF#319 Beyonder, is the Retconned-severely Depowered version.

In fact, if we take into consideration FF#319,
Beyonder is below The Living Tribunal and Eternity:

Beyonder also got stomped by Kubik, a Full-Cube Being

In fact, he was a HALF-Cube Being, so Doom stole a HALF-Cube Being's power,
and of course, with the surrounding stipulations that helped him achieve this goal.

.............................................................................

Also, according to FF#319 once can easily come the conclusion,
that Doom was actually allowed to take Beyonder's power,
by Beyonder's own un-conscious will, according to MM:

"you still don't understand desire, if you had understood,
there would have been no Secret Wars.
As a tiny portion of the Beyonders' force,
you un-consciously wanted to satisfy others' desires
"

========================================

This whole scenario is ridiculous,
(due to DeFalco's hate to retcon Beyonder, forcing Englehart to write a stupid story)
because Doom's mind wasn't incomplete,
heck, that wasn't even 616 Doom in SSI, not a fragment or any part of any kind.

Doom's complete mind, not a part, but all, was chillin in McArthur's body
back in the 616 Reality.

While the Doom in SSI on Battleworld (a completely separate/different Universe)
was a Doom from the Future,
who did not exist there, since well, Doom's body was dead, and his mind was in another's body.

This again leads back to Beyonder himself coercing Doom's feat,
like,
if it were not for Beyonder
literally replacing Doom 616 with his alternate non-existent future-self,
Doom 616 would have had absolutely nothing to do withy stealing B's power.

Yea, after the fact,
after the feat was completed by the Future Doom that never was,
then Beyonder (later in the future)
replaces Doom 616's history with the one that stole his power,
NOW making Doom 616 the culprit,
but before that, 616 Doom had nothing to do with stealing B's power.

That's a fact.

Furthermore, in fact,

In Marvel comics, if you're situated in the future,
then you're from another Timeline, (alternate future) That's it.

Beyonder plucked Secret Wars Doom from the future, (another Timeline)

While 616 Doom was left on Earth 616, chillin with McArthur's wife:

This is why
616 Doom never saw, or met the Beyonder until the Beyonder was retconned:

(this is YEARS after SSI or II)

It's right there in plain english!

Molecule Man seems to think Doom will be able to control Beyonder's powers with a complete mind, or else he would not try to stop Beyonder from giving him his power.

What wrong information did ODG put forth?

Originally posted by Mindset

Molecule Man seems to think Doom will be able to control Beyonder's powers with a complete mind, or else he would not try to stop Beyonder from giving him his power.

What wrong information did ODG put forth?


I'd like for you to point out to me where does Owen even allude to this idea?

"you were incomplete, just as you were when you tried to sustain his power before,
but I can see that once you have a complete mind,
you expect you'll know how to do it right
."

I know he says Doom expects to,
but I don't see here, or any other Marvel comic where Owen speaks for himself,
or Kubik affirms what Doom expects,
or any other being.

btw. Why did he not want Doom to get B's power again?

Heck, anyone can destroy a Universe with B's power,
being able to handle it or not,
just due to an after-effect or improper thought.

So yea, I can see the concern,
trillions upon trillions of lives at stake.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

^ Well, those are your opinions.
And I respect them, but flatly disagree with almost all of them.


My opinions?

😐

Everything I stated is a Marvel canon fact,
and all that I said is supported with On Panel proof,
and further confirmed in official Marvel Handbooks.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

And on that note, I'm totally willing to re-engage in a controlled debate over whether it was 616 Dr. Doom or not in Secret Wars in a battlezone-style deal. Simple to rehash our past arguments and, IMHO, the single easiest one to resolve once and for all You let me know.


Meh, haven't the time nowadays,
this is why I'm seldom seen now,
but uhh,
when and if I find the time,
I will gladly also be willing to engage in presenting the Marvel canon truth/facts
as I believe it's ironclad how the comics present them in my favor.

^ Yes, your opinions. Which I flatly disagree with.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I already have a battlezone coming up. I don't have any time to spare.

Feel free to ask Mr. Master though.

Originally posted by Mr Master
🙂

I'll take that up any day.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Meh, haven't the time nowadays,
this is why I'm seldom seen now,
but uhh,
when and if I find the time,
I will gladly also be willing to engage in presenting the Marvel canon truth/facts
as I believe it's ironclad how the comics present them in my favor.
I'm confused. Did you change your mind on doing a battlezone with me? If so, very well. I put it forth because I didn't want to derail this thread further. You let me know when you have time.

Also, back on topic, Reed + Doom >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanos.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Furthermore, the story to me makes it clear that Thanos was CHOOSEN because of his will and experience with an ultimate power. Those things wouldn't have been said if just anybody could do it. That imo is also a bit on the ludicrous side to assume. Not saying you are, just saying.
i don't recall stating 'just anybody' could have pulled off that feat - thanos was certainly one of the select few.

that, however, was not my original point. 🙂

Originally posted by Nihilist
Thanos specifically states that the celestial order had to filter the hotu power and absorb it through instruments because they could not physically accept the naked energies, yet Thanos had spent his entire life housing massive of might within his physical self.

He also stated that he alone had the will and training to accomplish this seemingly impossible feat(when he states this he had already absorbed the power allowing the knowledge of the what,when and how of the situation)

random statements from one of the most arrogant characters in marvel, pertaining to his own personal abilities, is hardly enough 'evidence' for me to think he was the "only" character capable of accomplishing said feat.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

^ Yes, your opinions. Which I flatly disagree with.


Not according to Marvel Comics, & official Marvel Handbooks, but hey,
to each his own. 🙂

I suppose when I post the scans accompanying my "opinions"
you'll have a change of heart,
then again knowing some at kmc,
perhaps not.

Still think you're a true debator friend,
we just happen to flatly disagree on this particular point.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

I'm confused. Did you change your mind on doing a battlezone with me? If so, very well. I put it forth because I didn't want to derail this thread further. You let me know when you have time.


Heh, funny.

I meant any day I have time,
sorry for not including that detail.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Also, back on topic, Reed + Doom >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanos.


Meh, more like Reed >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone.

The guy has a detailed map of every corner and atom of the freakin Omniverse,
in his head.

The Guy has been stamped as something special by TOAA himself,
in person no less.

The Guy has tech that can turn Galactus into a human being,
tech that can scour the MultiverseS,
tech that can rearrange reality on a cosmic scale
or tech that can simply sunder the Omniverse.

And best of all,
the guy is Marvel's #1 plot device.

Guest ya didn't know,
but Reed happens to be one of my favorite cats in Marvel.

Doom and Reed still win this. They have prep, and Thanos has not yet achieved ultimate power. The huge factor is that he is not specifically aware of their designs against him. Reed will pull some plot device out of nowhere and get this done and finished. The defense of "Thanos plans for every eventuality" does not hold up because he certainly failed to take into account Annihilus' true plans (to his horror), the arrival of Drax in a completely untimely manner (a severe miscalculation that was ultimately FATAL) and other instances.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Guest ya didn't know,
but Reed happens to be one of my favorite cats in Marvel.

I'm waiting for the day that Marvel uses Reed as a plot device to seduce any and all women in the MU. This would literally cause reality shattering events. The man can manipulate any part of his body. I'm surprised Sue isn't severely insecure.

I agree that Doom and Reed would win this.

Some great points made in this thread....Reed & Doom win this i.m.o

Originally posted by Galan007
i don't recall stating 'just anybody' could have pulled off that feat - thanos was certainly one of the select few.

that, however, was not my original point. 🙂

random statements from one of the most arrogant characters in marvel, pertaining to his own personal abilities, is hardly enough 'evidence' for me to think he was the "only" character capable of accomplishing said feat.

👆

I agree but would add.. one of the select few and possibly the only one 😛

Originally posted by Mr Master
None of those scans confirm
that Doom would be able to handle a partial Cube being's power (what Doom stole)

According to MM only Doom thought he would be able to handle it.

MM, Kubik and Shaper made no assertions as to whether that was true or not:

"you were incomplete, just as you were when you tried to sustain his power before,
but I can see that once you have a complete mind,
[b]you expect
you'll know how to do it right."

You can't say Doom would be able to contain Beyonder's power in FF#319,
and somehow relate that to the power he couldn't contain in Secret Wars.

Secret Wars Beyonder is Pre-Retcon Beyonder,
while FF#319 Beyonder, is the Retconned-severely Depowered version.

In fact, if we take into consideration FF#319,
Beyonder is below The Living Tribunal and Eternity:

Beyonder also got stomped by Kubik, a Full-Cube Being

In fact, he was a HALF-Cube Being, so Doom stole a HALF-Cube Being's power,
and of course, with the surrounding stipulations that helped him achieve this goal.

.............................................................................

Also, according to FF#319 once can easily come the conclusion,
that Doom was actually allowed to take Beyonder's power,
by Beyonder's own un-conscious will, according to MM:

"you still don't understand desire, if you had understood,
there would have been no Secret Wars.
As a tiny portion of the Beyonders' force,
you un-consciously wanted to satisfy others' desires
"

========================================

This whole scenario is ridiculous,
(due to DeFalco's hate to retcon Beyonder, forcing Englehart to write a stupid story)
because Doom's mind wasn't incomplete,
heck, that wasn't even 616 Doom in SSI, not a fragment or any part of any kind.

Doom's complete mind, not a part, but all, was chillin in McArthur's body
back in the 616 Reality.

While the Doom in SSI on Battleworld (a completely separate/different Universe)
was a Doom from the Future,
who did not exist there, since well, Doom's body was dead, and his mind was in another's body.

This again leads back to Beyonder himself coercing Doom's feat,
like,
if it were not for Beyonder
literally replacing Doom 616 with his alternate non-existent future-self,
Doom 616 would have had absolutely nothing to do withy stealing B's power.

Yea, after the fact,
after the feat was completed by the Future Doom that never was,
then Beyonder (later in the future)
replaces Doom 616's history with the one that stole his power,
NOW making Doom 616 the culprit,
but before that, 616 Doom had nothing to do with stealing B's power.

That's a fact.

Furthermore, in fact,

In Marvel comics, if you're situated in the future,
then you're from another Timeline, (alternate future) That's it.

Beyonder plucked Secret Wars Doom from the future, (another Timeline)

While 616 Doom was left on Earth 616, chillin with McArthur's wife:

This is why
616 Doom never saw, or met the Beyonder until the Beyonder was retconned:

(this is YEARS after SSI or II)

It's right there in plain english! [/B]

Laying down the facts on this Doombot.

He also laid down the facts that Reed>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Thanos 🙂

Originally posted by Mindset
He also laid down the facts that Reed>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Thanos 🙂

I agree that Reed and Doom do win and I honestly think it wouldn't be very hard. Two of marvels best intellects and prepsters against a Thanos who doesn't even know its coming. That to me means they can take down Thanos. Now in a prep for prep situation... That is another matter all together.

Originally posted by Mindset
He also laid down the facts that Reed>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Thanos 🙂
Tell that to WW Hulk, buddy. Great job of preparation there.

Thanos defeated WWH with prep?

Originally posted by Mindset
Thanos defeated WWH with prep?
He wouldn't even need to prep for an elite top tier. He beat Thor with a gun he was tinkering around with.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Laying down the facts on this Doombot.
1-day battlezone, 10 posts or less each, if you don't have a lot of time to debate the issue on whether it was 616 Doom or not in Secret Wars. I'm throwing it out there. Let me know if that works better for you to fit into your busy schedule.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Not according to Marvel Comics, & official Marvel Handbooks, but hey,
to each his own. 🙂

I suppose when I post the scans accompanying my "opinions"
you'll have a change of heart,
then again knowing some at kmc,
perhaps not.

Still think you're a true debator friend,
we just happen to flatly disagree on this particular point.

Again, your opinion. I can post scans too. But it would derail this thread further. Something I've been warned about several times, so I'm trying to contain it. I've moved beyond the point where I feel compelled to reply ***-for-tat against posters challenging my opinions in ancillary debates that completely derail threads. Feel free to make a new thread about the issues we debated about. I won't, because the last time I did exactly that, I was called out for it, despite my intentions. So I'm certainly not going to initiate that behavior anymore.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Heh, funny.

I meant any day I have time,
sorry for not including that detail.

As soon as you have time, let me know.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Meh, more like Reed >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone.

The guy has a detailed map of every corner and atom of the freakin Omniverse,
in his head.

The Guy has been stamped as something special by TOAA himself,
in person no less.

The Guy has tech that can turn Galactus into a human being,
tech that can scour the MultiverseS,
tech that can rearrange reality on a cosmic scale
or tech that can simply sunder the Omniverse.

And best of all,
the guy is Marvel's #1 plot device.

Guest ya didn't know,
but Reed happens to be one of my favorite cats in Marvel.

I posted that to respond to the original premise of this thread and get it back on track. I didn't post it to insinuate that you were disregarding Reed. Not even in the slightest. I sincerely apologize if that would disappoint you.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Doom didn't outsmart Thanos either. But Thanos did spy on Doom undetected so I think that could have been what he was referring to.

Actually I think Doom found out in the end.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
1-day battlezone, 10 posts or less each, if you don't have a lot of time to debate the issue on whether it was 616 Doom or not in Secret Wars. I'm throwing it out there. Let me know if that works better for you to fit into your busy schedule.Again, your opinion. I can post scans too. But it would derail this thread further. Something I've been warned about several times, so I'm trying to contain it. I've moved beyond the point where I feel compelled to reply ***-for-tat against posters challenging my opinions in ancillary debates that completely derail threads. Feel free to make a new thread about the issues we debated about. I won't, because the last time I did exactly that, I was called out for it, despite my intentions. So I'm certainly not going to initiate that behavior anymore. As soon as you have time, let me know. I posted that to respond to the original premise of this thread and get it back on track. I didn't post it to insinuate that you were disregarding Reed. Not even in the slightest. I sincerely apologize if that would disappoint you.
I already told you. Have fun with Mr. Master as he has laid scan after scan on you. I can't just keep taking everyone on here with battlezone after battlezone.