Originally posted by darthgoober
Nope, and if you started a thread asking if Supes could lift an infinite amount of weight everyone with a brain would say no.Spidey's high end includes trouncing Firelord, do you accept that one high end showing as the accurate depiction of his abilities or do you look at his other showings and try to find a more reasonable average?
Also, you seem to be having a lot of difficulty giving a strait answer to a fairly simple question...
Originally posted by Zeuodin
Spiderman did not beat Firelord in the conventional sense. He didn't fight him straight up. Plus Zoom doesn't run fast. He controls time. To what ever degree he wants. use some common sense.
And you're still dodging the question.
Originally posted by darthgoober
Their fight was pretty straitforward, and Spidey KO'd him by bouncing around and punching him. So is that the way you see Spiderman in threads, or do you look for a more reasonable average?And you're still dodging the question.
Originally posted by Zeuodin
Or I think Firelord doesn't have high resistance to physical Dmg. Only Energy Dmg. Unless there are other instances of Him being punched around. I'd like to see them. That is the more reasonable assumption.
Originally posted by Galan007
^ you know the issue #? i don't think i've ever seen that one..
Originally posted by darthgoober
He's fought toe to toe with guys like Thor and Hercules and withstood a pounding from Dumb Drax, his physical damage soak is fine.
Originally posted by Zeuodin
Then obviously the writer had retard mode on when he made that fight. The writer who had wally fight Zoom was one of the best flash writers in history. And I think he even made that character zoom so he would know. You guys don't take into account who's writing? Ug. How do you debate if you don't look at who's writing and the entire history of the character too?
Originally posted by darthgooberNo. I'm accepting that the one writer who created the character would know better as to what the character can and can't do. Plus Zoom doesn't run. Anyone with comics sense knows that he controls time. He can be any speed he wants.
So you only accept Flash/Zoom feats from that ONE writer?
Originally posted by Zeuodin
No. I'm accepting that the one writer who created the character would know better as to what the character can and can't do. Plus Zoom doesn't run. Anyone with comics sense knows that he controls time. He can be any speed he wants.
Also, did that particular writer ever feature Zoom going that fast ever again?
Originally posted by darthgooberIf Stan Lee were to right Surfer today then his stance would be the one to take the most into account. Also, how many times has zoom fought flash amping himself with every other speedster's power? never. Zoom only fights people enough to push them. Why can't you get that? Are you just skipping over that character fact? or do you guys just argue powers and appearances only?
So Stan Lee's take on Surfer from back in the day trumps all his newer stuff?Also, did that particular writer ever feature Zoom going that fast ever again?
Originally posted by Zeuodin
If Stan Lee were to right Surfer today then his stance would be the one to take the most into account. Also, how many times has zoom fought flash amping himself with every other speedster's power? never. Zoom only fights people enough to push them. Why can't you get that? Are you just skipping over that character fact? or do you guys just argue powers and appearances only?
Did the writer ever have him going that fast again or not? Did the writer ever have matching his speed without borrowing speed from others?
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Johns specifically stated that he was not happy with the way other writers were portraying him. Hence why he was killed off.
Not that it really matters since his opinion still doesn't automatically trump DC's other writers. It might incidentally if he's written most of Zoom's appearances since his would be the way Zoom's normally written, but he doesn't gain seniority just because he wrote the guy first.
Originally posted by darthgoober
So he was Zoom's most recent writer then? He may very well be since I've fallen behind on DC, so don't think I'm trying to be accusing or anything.Not that it really matters since his opinion still doesn't automatically trump DC's other writers. It might incidentally if he's written most of Zoom's appearances since his would be the way Zoom's normally written, but he doesn't gain seniority just because he wrote the guy first.
Johns was Zoom's most recent writer, he depowered him in Rogue's Revenge.
Originally posted by Galan007
you're relating travel speed [the speed surfer was moving in a straight line] to battle speed [the zig-zag-type speed he'd be using while fighting zoom] - they are completely different. so the 'billions of times the speed of light' argument isn't really applicable unless you're using it solely to describe surfer's perception abilities... and even then, my former argument pertaining to zoom being ahead of the normal timeline, thus will always be faster, still applies.wally was able to perceive zoom because he had become so fast [via extreme ampage] that time literally did not apply to him. yet even then it was a very good fight. however, zoom has shown the ability to control his personal time bubble with a good amount of precision [enabling him to 'fast-forward' himself to become faster... if need be.]
regardless, my opinion on the matter has been stated, so there's really no point in circling around again. no offense to you, of course... our discussions are always respectful and pleasant.
🙂
I was using it to describe solely the speed of his perceptions and thoughts. Note that i never talked about him physically reacting to zoom but rather perceiving him and mentally reacting.
also ur argument of Zoom always being faster applies for the very reason that wally was able to get closer and closer to his speed as he got more amps (first he couldnt even see him, then he could see a blur then he could fully perceive him etc). Hence that indicates that there is either a fixed level of speed in which zooms being ahead of the timestream gives him or for some reason Zoom didnt "fast forward" himself to become faster. Regardless of reason we have to use the fastest speed shown by Zoom on panel so as not to fall into the no limit fallacy. This occured in his fight with wally in which he and wally fought all over the world a dozen times in less than a second. Further wally did use "second" as a time frame so we know that time DID apply to him still. He was just fast enough to keep up with the "speed" that Zoom was availed by his personal timebubble.
We obviously wont agree on this so i will agree to disagree. 🙂
Originally posted by Zeuodin
Um, Wally has moved faster than instantaneous travel and beaten death which is literally everywhere at once. So yeah, He and Zoom were traveling far far faster than 20k light. How in the heck did you even come up with that? Anyone who reads flash knows that he's moved Super luminal on his own before which is so fast that not even Superman could keep up. And Superman has flown from Vega to earth in under a minute.
The term "Instantaneous" is relative. If ur talking about Wally moving faster than teleportation than while that is impressive it has been done by others as well i.e surfer. Also what do u mean by beaten death? do u mean when he outran the blackflash? Because im not sure how u are even quantifying that feat as he was running through the timestream. Also blackflash wasnt everywhere at once.
And i said that the best estimates ive seen from other people who calculated it was 20k light speed based on flash and Zoom having covered every inch of the earth in less than second as flash claimed. Even if we were to strectch the calculation as much as we could it wouldnt be on the same level purely speedwise as the surfer feat. What u should realize is that flash is actually fighting however and so u would be hardpressed to find a bettercombat speed feat.