Originally posted by MindshipYou might have missed it but the destroyer was not animated when Ben Grimm beat on him.
When the Destroyer was herald, it seemed Ben Grimm could hit it - and take hits from it - pretty good, so I don't think it was up to its classic, Thor-owning levels. In this instance, Superman - especially sundipped - likely could take it w/o much difficulty.
Originally posted by darthgoober
Nah even without exploiting Supes's weaknesses Surfer still has the stuff to take him. Supes might have an edge in strength but that's pretty much it, Surfer still has the superior ranged game and versatility(force fields, transmutation, etc.) going for him. The only shot Supes really has is getting up close and personal, and there's no reason for Surfer to let him do that in a forum fight. And since the two have comparable durability(even without Norrin using his force fields), it would take Supes a minute to KO him even if he somehow DID get close enough and started swinging for the fences just as it would take someone like Bizarro(or someone else who's strength is comparible to Clark's) a minute to KO Supes himself.
then we disagree.
Originally posted by -Pr-
then we disagree.
Originally posted by darthgoober
On which part? Cause if you agree that the points in my reasoning are right I don't really see how you can disagree about the outcome 😕 . Of course if you disagree about one/all the points I made it's understandable that you might see things differently, but in that case I'd be interested to hear which one(s).
i don't agree that superman's only advantage is strength. i don't agree that superman doesn't have ranged capabilities sufficient to hurt surfer. i don't agree that norrin has durability on his level. i don't agree that transmutation will work, given that superman has resisted it before.
so i don't agree. 😛
Originally posted by kgkg
Nope outside of plot devices no one has beat the Destroyer head on. Other than Celestials of course.T-Vo or something similar could have been done if this was comic.
But in a forum style battle Destroyer will always own top tiers.
I meant to say, didn't Thor just beat Destroyer in last issue or so? He fought him, and I believe Loki was controlling it.
Originally posted by darthgoober
Nah even without exploiting Supes's weaknesses Surfer still has the stuff to take him. Supes might have an edge in strength but that's pretty much it, Surfer still has the superior ranged game and versatility(force fields, transmutation, etc.) going for him. The only shot Supes really has is getting up close and personal, and there's no reason for Surfer to let him do that in a forum fight. And since the two have comparable durability(even without Norrin using his force fields), it would take Supes a minute to KO him even if he somehow DID get close enough and started swinging for the fences just as it would take someone like Bizarro(or someone else who's strength is comparible to Clark's) a minute to KO Supes himself.
👆
i don't agree that superman's only advantage is strength. i don't agree that superman doesn't have ranged capabilities sufficient to hurt surfer. i don't agree that norrin has durability on his level. i don't agree that transmutation will work, given that superman has resisted it before.
The hold of the darkside is strong on this one. 😛
Originally posted by xJLxKingIt was Balder. Thor had the Odin force and he only won because he was able to summon all the spirit back<another plot device). Destroyer almost killed him in that fight.
There was a typo.I meant to say, didn't Thor just beat Destroyer in last issue or so? He fought him, and I believe Loki was controlling it.
Originally posted by -Pr-
i don't agree that superman's only advantage is strength.
Originally posted by -Pr-
i don't agree that superman doesn't have ranged capabilities sufficient to hurt surfer.
Originally posted by -Pr-
i don't agree that norrin has durability on his level.
Originally posted by -Pr-
i don't agree that transmutation will work, given that superman has resisted it before.
Originally posted by -Pr-
so i don't agree. 😛
Originally posted by darthgooberOn paper Surfer has the tools to compete with pretty much any character.
What other advantages does he have? But if we look on paper alone, someone like Bombshell has nearly all the same powers he does and she's not even near the same bracket.I didn't say that he couldn't hurt Surfer, I said that Surfer has the superior ranged game. So at a distance Surfer has the advantage. And given that Supes's ranged attacks are heatvision and cold breath(which wouldn't be anywhere near as effective against Surfer as they are against most of his rogues gallery), I'd say the advantage is pretty large.
How if the two have comparable feats of durability? Can you think of a durability feat that Surfer can't compete with?
I wasn't necessarily talking about direct offensive transmutation, indirect transmutation can be just as effective. And even if I were talking about direct offensive transmutation, just because Supes can fight through it doesn't mean that it still wouldn't be draining or throw Supes for a loop at least momentarily and allow Surfer to put distance between the two.
I really don't understand why.
But while you're talking about Surfer's advantages-
You're ignoring several of Superman's if you think strength is his only advantage. He's a better strategist. Although he's at a disadvantage in powerS, he's a more powerful more accomplished combatant by far imo. He's plain better in combat situations mentally and physically.
You'd have to strip away Surfer's character as he's most often portrayed in big fights against big time characters to come up with a favorable scenario where he's he going to run and hide and pelt with blasts and things, especially when Superman can hang with his space-travel feats, and far outstrips him in the combat scenario ones.
Without exploiting weaknesses, the most common scenario will involve Superman and Surfer getting close, and Surfer getting pummeled unconscious.
Originally posted by Naija boy
👆The hold of the darkside is strong on this one. 😛
quiet you.
Originally posted by darthgoober
What other advantages does he have?
strength, durability/stamina, and skill.
I didn't say that he couldn't hurt Surfer, I said that Surfer has the superior ranged game. So at a distance Surfer has the advantage. And given that Supes's ranged attacks are heatvision and cold breath(which wouldn't be anywhere near as effective against Surfer as they are against most of his rogues gallery), I'd say the advantage is pretty large.
that's another thing we disagree on.
How if the two have comparable feats of durability? Can you think of a durability feat that Surfer can't compete with?
just from combat in general.
I wasn't necessarily talking about direct offensive transmutation, indirect transmutation can be just as effective. And even if I were talking about direct offensive transmutation, just because Supes can fight through it doesn't mean that it still wouldn't be draining or throw Supes for a loop at least momentarily and allow Surfer to put distance between the two.
so surfer's going to spend the entire fight running away?
I really don't understand why.
then i don't know what i can do to convince you lol...
Originally posted by Juntai
On paper Surfer has the tools to compete with pretty much any character.But while you're talking about Surfer's advantages-
You're ignoring several of Superman's if you think strength is his only advantage. He's a better strategist. Although he's at a disadvantage in powerS, he's a more powerful more accomplished combatant by far imo. He's plain better in combat situations mentally and physically.You'd have to strip away Surfer's character as he's most often portrayed in big fights against big time characters to come up with a favorable scenario where he's he going to run and hide and pelt with blasts and things, especially when Superman can hang with his space-travel feats, and far outstrips him in the combat scenario ones.
Without exploiting weaknesses, the most common scenario will involve Superman and Surfer getting close, and Surfer getting pummeled unconscious.
👆
and i was afraid of this turning in to a supes v surfer thread...
Originally posted by Juntai
On paper Surfer has the tools to compete with pretty much any character.But while you're talking about Surfer's advantages-
You're ignoring several of Superman's if you think strength is his only advantage. He's a better strategist. Although he's at a disadvantage in powerS, he's a more powerful more accomplished combatant by far imo. He's plain better in combat situations mentally and physically.
Originally posted by Juntai
You'd have to strip away Surfer's character as he's most often portrayed in big fights against big time characters to come up with a favorable scenario where he's he going to run and hide and pelt with blasts and things, especially when Superman can hang with his space-travel feats, and far outstrips him in the combat scenario ones.
Originally posted by Juntai
Without exploiting weaknesses, the most common scenario will involve Superman and Surfer getting close, and Surfer getting pummeled unconscious.
Originally posted by -Pr-
strength, durability/stamina, and skill.
Originally posted by -Pr-
that's another thing we disagree on.
Originally posted by -Pr-
just from combat in general.
Originally posted by -Pr-
so surfer's going to spend the entire fight running away?
Originally posted by -Pr-
then i don't know what i can do to convince you lol...
Originally posted by -Pr-
i don't agree that superman's only advantage is strength. i don't agree that superman doesn't have ranged capabilities sufficient to hurt surfer. i don't agree that norrin has durability on his level. i don't agree that transmutation will work, given that superman has resisted it before.so i don't agree. 😛
Two different wavelengths are debating here.
DC = Superman is top dom. Nothing wrong with that belief, since the comics support that notion. Superman is on a team that has included beings that can create quasars, "heavens ladder", fast forward time for entire celestial bodies, contain big bangs, hold planets, etc and yet, he's still considered the most powerful being on earth.
With hv, icebreath, superspeed and punches in bunches. I don't get the logic(hint-there is none to be found:<😉 but thats DC editorials line and they maintain it.
Surfer is from the universe where he's seen as a christlike figure, can do anything and is more often than not, the most powerful guy around in the hero league. He can evolve planets, create blackholes, transfer enormous amounts of energy, fly through stars, cross galaxies in seconds(years ago) and transmute on the fly, affect souls, whatever basically....
To me, there is no comparison in power. None whatsoever.
Formidability, Superman easily wins there.
I see Superman beating every herald except for Stardust and Surfer. All else fall.
Originally posted by Zeuodin
I agree with your don't agree. 🙂
Originally posted by UniOmni
DC = Superman is top dom. Nothing wrong with that belief, since the comics support that notion. Superman is on a team that has included beings that can create quasars, "heavens ladder", fast forward time for entire celestial bodies, contain big bangs, hold planets, etc and yet, he's still considered the most powerful being on earth.
With hv, icebreath, superspeed and punches in bunches. I don't get the logic(hint-there is none to be found:< ) but thats DC editorials line and they maintain it.
Lawl @ missing THE WHOLE DAMN POINT COMPLETELY.
Originally posted by UniOmniYep. Except for his two difficult battles, he gets to amp in the sun.
Two different wavelengths are debating here.DC = Superman is top dom. Nothing wrong with that belief, since the comics support that notion. Superman is on a team that has included beings that can create quasars, "heavens ladder", fast forward time for entire celestial bodies, contain big bangs, hold planets, etc and yet, he's still considered the most powerful being on earth.
With hv, icebreath, superspeed and punches in bunches. I don't get the logic(hint-there is none to be found:<😉 but thats DC editorials line and they maintain it.Surfer is from the universe where he's seen as a christlike figure, can do anything and is more often than not, the most powerful guy around in the hero league. He can evolve planets, create blackholes, transfer enormous amounts of energy, fly through stars, cross galaxies in seconds(years ago) and transmute on the fly, affect souls, whatever basically....
To me, there is no comparison in power. None whatsoever.
Formidability, Superman easily wins there.I see Superman beating every herald except for Stardust and Surfer. All else fall.
Originally posted by darthgooberSaying "On the forum" is merely your way of trying to put the character into the favorable light you want us to picture him battling under, rather than one he'd be typically seen battling under. They still fight in character on the forum.
A better strategist? Based on what? And what makes you think he's more powerful?Not really, he's had instances of keeping his distance before. Like the first time he fought Thor and he kept his distance an hammered Thor with repeated blast. Thor never even got in a melee shot, his only hit was with a hammer throw. And Supes's combat speed feats are more numerous than Surfer's but Norrin's still put him on Supes's level.
Only in a comic. On the forum Surfer would keep his distance and fight smart.
How long ago was that first Thor fight, and how many times has he ended up in close quarters against big time players since then? Almost all of them? Also, Thor is no Superman.
If you don't see Superman as the better on the fly battle strategist try reading some more Superman. 🙂
Originally posted by Juntai
Saying "On the forum" is merely your way of trying to put the character into the favorable light you want us to picture him battling under, rather than one he'd be typically seen battling under. They still fight in character on the forum.How long ago was that first Thor fight, and how many times has he ended up in close quarters against big time players since then? Almost all of them? Also, Thor is no Superman.
If you don't see Superman as the better on the fly battle strategist try reading some more Superman. 🙂
That was just the first that came to mind, do you really think that there haven't been other instances of Surfer keeping his distance for most/all the fight? Supes has plenty of instances of getting tagged for being dumb too, but his fans still say that the Hulk can't touch him.
They both use creative methods to take down their foes and they're both good at doing it, unless Supes has a particularly impressive strategy in his history it doesn't really seem right to say that he's better than Surfer.