Originally posted by Juntai
CIS is applicable however. Not using your array powers effectively in combat consistently is closer related to a matter of CIS, while PIS is applicable if Surfer's fighting say . . Wolverine, and ends up loosing. We're talking about Surfer fighting top tier guys, in his class, and ending up in close quarters with them. It happens. It's not PIS. And not using powers effectively on panel as well as you and others like to present him being able to do so on the forum is another example of Surfer not being as combat efficient as Superman.Superman gets tagged not entirely from being dumb, but because he CAN. He's outright admitted as much on panel several times. JLA Classified 15 comes to mind right off the top.
The entire JLA is decimated, laying unconscious, and Superman alone stands up to fight more.
Alien: Are you read for more?
Supes: Actually, I think I'm ready to stop playing with you.
Alien: Playing? I've beaten you half to death.Supes: Not even close. I needed to measure your power and get a handle on what's really happening here. And that took time. So I just soaked up your punches while I worked it all out.
Yes, apparently Superman's enough of a dick to let all his teammates get pummeled unconscious before he even bothers taking off the kid gloves.
But there's also tons of examples of him avoiding when he wants to. I'm sure you've seen some in Superman threads at times. Both are applicable, sure. Superman can tank blows all day if he's not in any real danger, or he can avoid them. It's pretty simple conceptually.
I guess Superman being the military leader/general of a planet doesn't mean anything.
Also, there's an example in the up up and away arc where Superman is fighting multiple characters, and he's doing things like calculating if he hits character with a certain amount of force it'll throw him off balance a certain degree and cause that guy's blast to hit one of the other guys fighting him.
Lots of examples like that in Clark's history.
He's no Batman, or Captain America, but he's a hell of a fighter.
If that were true Flash wouldn't use his speed effectively on the forum. But he's specifically sited as an example in the forum rules so consistency isn't really an issue in PIS. If Surfer's ever kept a distance for most/all of a fight with a physically superior opponent then he's shown it to be in character for him to do so. If he's ever used a forcefield offensively and/or defensively in combat then he's shown it to be in character for him to do so. Now if I were to say that Surfer charges his board with red solar energy and bullrushes Supes's neck at top speed for an easy decapitation THEN I would be pitching a tactic that was out of character for Surfer to do because even though it's within Surfer's to do just that, it's not the kind of thing Surfer would ever actually do.
And by the same token, it can be said that Surfer gets tagged and forgoes exotic tactics because he can. There are multiple instances of him taking a beating to keep from hurting the other guy. Course he's not bloodlusted in those instances...
And like Supes, Surfer has plenty of instances of him dodging when he wants. He also has plenty of instances of using things like forefields and transmutation in combat.
And Surfer's got multiple instances of him blitzing entire fleets of spaceships and dodging multiple incoming blast and decisively disabling all of them in moments without killing a soul. He also organized the assault that killed Galactus. He also played a key role in the Kree/Skrull war as an ally to the Skrulls. Like I said both of these guys are creative and come up with all kinds of innovative ways to take down their foes and while your example is impressive more complicated doesn't equal better.
Originally posted by -Pr-
tbh, i wouldn't want to be involved.🙁
i have actually read surfer, you know, so you're already telling me stuff that i know. i just have a different opinion, is all.
I know you're a Surfer fan and I think you're a good guy so don't think I'm accusing you of bias, I'm genuinely curious as to the specific feats of Supes that makes him superior to Surfer IYO.
Originally posted by darthgoober
But I'm curious as to WHY you have a different opinion? I answered pretty much every example of durability and gave superior feats for energy blast. And just so you we don't get hung up specifically as to whether or not Surfer's feats are better, I also showed why Supes's primary ranged attack would be less effective than normal so Surfer should still have the edge even if we considered the feats comparable. Since all Surfer has to do is keep his distance to win and he has all the necessary tools to do so, it seems to me like he's the clear winner.I know you're a Surfer fan and I think you're a good guy so don't think I'm accusing you of bias, I'm genuinely curious as to the specific feats of Supes that makes him superior to Surfer IYO.
my opinion is different because i don't agree. i've read both characters at length, and superman just strikes me as being more impressive. just because you can't understand WHY i feel the way i do, doesn't mean i don't have valid reasons for them (imo).
what you gave me were YOUR ideas of superior feats and examples. i just don't agree. it's really that simple lol...
as for why i think Superman is better, in terms of an engagement? His ever increasing power since OWAW.
Originally posted by -Pr-
my opinion is different because i don't agree. i've read both characters at length, and superman just strikes me as being more impressive. just because you can't understand WHY i feel the way i do, doesn't mean i don't have valid reasons for them (imo).what you gave me were YOUR ideas of superior feats and examples. i just don't agree. it's really that simple lol...
as for why i think Superman is better, in terms of an engagement? His ever increasing power since OWAW.
Originally posted by darthgoober
I don't doubt you have valid reasons for them, that's why I asked what they were. I'm not trying to force my opinion down your throat or anything, I'm just engaging in a debate. If you don't want to discuss it or nothing can convince you just let me know and I'll drop the whole thing, comparing feats is how I debate so I'm trying to do comparisons.
honestly, i don't see you or i changing each other's minds. i'm not trying to fob you off or anything. i just really don't feel like digging through all my surfer comics right now lol...
Originally posted by darthgooberIt's obviously more in character against top level opponents to end up in close quarters. I could post scans of him running into punches left and right and right clear down an entire page like I did in the Surfer vs Superman thread a year or so ago that drew a lot of criticism if I had to.
If that were true Flash wouldn't use his speed effectively on the forum. But he's specifically sited as an example in the forum rules so consistency isn't really an issue in PIS. If Surfer's ever kept a distance for most/all of a fight with a physically superior opponent then he's shown it to be in character for him to do so. If he's ever used a forcefield offensively and/or defensively in combat then he's shown it to be in character for him to do so. Now if I were to say that Surfer charges his board with red solar energy and bullrushes Supes's neck at top speed for an easy decapitation THEN I would be pitching a tactic that was out of character for Surfer to do because even though it's within Surfer's to do just that, it's not the kind of thing Surfer would ever actually do.And by the same token, it can be said that Surfer gets tagged and forgoes exotic tactics because he can. There are multiple instances of him taking a beating to keep from hurting the other guy. Course he's not bloodlusted in those instances...
And like Supes, Surfer has plenty of instances of him dodging when he wants. He also has plenty of instances of using things like forefields and transmutation in combat.
And Surfer's got multiple instances of him blitzing entire fleets of spaceships and dodging multiple incoming blast and decisively disabling all of them in moments without killing a soul. He also organized the assault that killed Galactus. He also played a key role in the Kree/Skrull war as an ally to the Skrulls. Like I said both of these guys are creative and come up with all kinds of innovative ways to take down their foes and while your example is impressive more complicated doesn't equal better.
Disabling ships isn't quite the same as using combat tactics efficiently against very powerful opponent[s].
But like PR is suggesting, we'll get nowhere trying to convince you of anything in this particular debate involving Surfer, or any debate involving Surfer for that matter. I even recall just recently you debating the Surfer vs Thor for a dozen pages with clear scans of Thor rocking Surfer left and right with little difficulty, while Surfer had help. lol.
Originally posted by Mindship
Same here. Surfer and Supes are my favorites. Two reasons though why I put Surfer > Supes...1. Flying standing up is cooler than standard horizontal flying position.
2. Silver skivies > red skivies over blue tights.
damn, now that's some irrefyteable sh!t . . .
but, by that token--winged helmet and sweet looking ancient norse hammer > silver skivies. i knew if i thought long enough i'd come up with an argument you couldn't counter that clearly proves thor > ss!! nwoot
Originally posted by Mindship
Same here. Surfer and Supes are my favorites. Two reasons though why I put Surfer > Supes...1. Flying standing up is cooler than standard horizontal flying position.
2. Silver skivies > red skivies over blue tights.
surfer is one of the best vanilla posers in comics, though so is superman imo.
Originally posted by Spire
It's obvious that you don't read comics, since the concept of being a hero eludes you. Comics weren't conjured up for the purpose of having battle board idiots cry over someone having more powers than another.
See, when you say things like that, it tells me to read your posts with eyebrow lifted.
I own plenty of comics....so many that the money spent on them is truthfully embarassing.
And you make no sense.
The concept of being a hero means nothing in this discussion, since on KMC the debates are based around the powerset of the characters, and shown applications of said powersets.
If this was Herochat, the concept of a hero would mean something because they take into account personality, etc. Not here.
So next time you try to strawman ME, rethink it or try with more subtlety, since you didn't refute anything i said but merely fell back on the battleboard idjit insult.
Originally posted by UniOmni
See, when you say things like that, it tells me to read your posts with eyebrow lifted.I own plenty of comics....so many that the money spent on them is truthfully embarassing.
And you make no sense.
The concept of being a hero means nothing in this discussion, since on KMC the debates are based around the powerset of the characters, and shown applications of said powersets.
If this was Herochat, the concept of a hero would mean something because they take into account personality, etc. Not here.So next time you try to strawman ME, rethink it or try with more subtlety, since you didn't refute anything i said but merely fell back on the battleboard idjit insult.
you HAVE read the rules, right? particularly this section:
Originally posted by -Pr-
[B]Clarification of CISOk people, here are the finalised rules as regards PIS, CIS, and everything related to it.
PIS is, as always, off unless the thread starter says it's ON.
CIS, as was said before, is now a more diverse term, but is not as vague as before.
While CIS still exists in the form of characters like Rhino (who are just too stupid to know better), it also exists in one other form.
This is known as Character Inhibited Power. This applies to characters that have intelligence, like the Silver Surfer, Superman, and so on and so forth.
As Bada said:
"It's a self imposed limitation in certain circumstances which there is concern for civilians and buildings for the most part. It's not stupidity, it's a limitation set until the threat exceeds a certain threshold."
What this means is that people like the Surfer and Superman and so on will not use the full extent of their powers if it will endanger civilians. It doesn't, though, mean they will fight like idiots. The character's personality is an integral part of the match and dictates how they will perform. This is the crux of the rules we've come up with. It doesn't come down to powers, it comes down to the man or woman that weilds them.
In accordance with this, several factors come in to play in debates:
The Opponent, Basic Information, the Arena and the Character's Personality and Experience
Those four are key.
Example:
If Martian Manhunter fights say, Juggernaut.
MM doesn't personally know Juggernaut (Opponent). So he has Basic Information. This is categorised as being what the general public would know about the Juggernaut. It goes by averages. If that average man or woman on the street knows that Juggernaut is super strong, then MM knows. The average man or woman doesn't know, however, that the Juggernaut is weak against psionics. J'onn would approach with caution, not knowing whether Juggernaut was in his weight class, and not knowing the full extent of the man's powers.
However. If Martian Manhunter went up against Amazo, he would know to go for broke right at the start, because he KNOWS Amazo (Personality and Experience). He will use his speed, his strength, his shapeshifting. This is because if he knows what it takes to bring down Amazo, or he believes his standard attacks won't work. If J'onn was fighting Juggernaut, there would come a point when he would realise that normal attacks won't work, and would up his game. Any character that doesn't suffer from Rhino-esque stupidity is capable of this. Even with this, though, the Arena comes in to play. If civilians are in danger, J'onn won't shapeshift in to a fire breathing dragon. Juggernaut on the other hand doesn't care, so wouldn't hesitate to toss cars and trucks full of civilians at the Martian.
Examples:
Thor knows he can't out-brawl Hulk, so uses exotic powers sooner than he would against the likes of Superman, as Superman is an unknown to him.
Superman would go all out against Doomsday or Despero because he knows how powerful they are. Against the Hulk, he's going to take a few punches before realising he'll have to use something rather than slugging it out. He won't bathe the street in heat vision either, because there are civilians nearby.
It ALL comes down to the CHARACTER, not the POWERSET. [/B]
right?
Originally posted by -Pr-
and i think it's superman.you mean ranged right? as far as versatility, surfer has it in spades, but people seem to underrate superman's heat vision quite a bit on this forum. hv that has put down despero, halted omega beams and broken through forcefields that were impenetrable to everyone else.
i'm talking about the calibre of enemy they fight that can actually put them down/defeat/restrain them. superman can take on grundy, mongul, darkseid, despero (there's more to the guy than virtue and vice), green lanterns etc etc.
its incredibly rare for an enemy to dominate superman unless they're dominating the entire JLA.
can the same be said for surfer? i don't think so.
you don't think superman can close said distance?
hopefully you'll be satisfied now. 😛
it's the simplicity of him. he doesn't need willpower or magic or fancy gadgets. he simply is.
and he's a b*tch to kill.
there's logic there if you simply look at it objectively.
No PR, there still is no logic there.
You have GL, a guy who can take hits from Superman level beings and return them, but also has a ring that can hold back big bangs, blackholes, create quasars and do basically anything. Can transmute, rewrite dna, etc.
Yet even tho they can do all those things i said and more, he's still seen as more powerful? That doesn't make a lick of sense and we both know it.
Its editorial and we both know it.
Hey, i've got a ring that i can use to rewrite my dna into lets say, Kryptonian dna, and i still retain the do anything fancy gadget on my ring.....that lets me do whatever as long as there's a charge and i have the mind to do it.
vs
I can punch hard, breath ice, glare lasers and have strong skin.
His simplicity hurts him in reality, but no, not when it's Superman.
But put enraged Hulk(maddest we've seen him) vs Superman, and suddenly the extra tricks make all the difference and Hulk is a one trick pony, right?
Hulk = One trick
Superman = 5 tricks
GL = Think up tricks as he goes along
Surfer = The same as GL
Yet, Superman is more powerful? Please, spare me the double standards.
And nope, i wasn't aware you guys changed the rules. Before, they were basically cbr rules, which is powerset is key.
Originally posted by UniOmni
No PR, there still is no logic there.You have GL, a guy who can take hits from Superman level beings and return them, but also has a ring that can hold back big bangs, blackholes, create quasars and do basically anything. Can transmute, rewrite dna, etc.
Yet even tho they can do all those things i said and more, he's still seen as more powerful? That doesn't make a lick of sense and we both know it.
Its editorial and we both know it.
Hey, i've got a ring that i can use to rewrite my dna into lets say, Kryptonian dna, and i still retain the do anything fancy gadget on my ring.....that lets me do whatever as long as there's a charge and i have the mind to do it.
vs
I can punch hard, breath ice, glare lasers and have strong skin.
His simplicity hurts him in reality, but no, not when it's Superman.
But put enraged Hulk(maddest we've seen him) vs Superman, and suddenly the extra tricks make all the difference and Hulk is a one trick pony, right?
Hulk = One trick
Superman = 5 tricks
GL = Think up tricks as he goes along
Surfer = The same as GLYet, Superman is more powerful? Please, spare me the double standards.
i disagree.
Originally posted by UniOmni
No evidence?
No debate?
Just i disagree?What is there to disagree to?
When a guy can do everything you can do, plus more, he's more powerful than you, period.
Its not subjective, it's pure common sense.
i stated why i disagreed in my earlier post.
i don't believe that being more versatile means you're superior.
i might have 99 ways to put someone down, but if it only takes 1, then 98 of them are not much use to me.
simplicity is not a bad thing by any means.
Originally posted by UniOmni
No PR, there still is no logic there.You have GL, a guy who can take hits from Superman level beings and return them, but also has a ring that can hold back big bangs, blackholes, create quasars and do basically anything. Can transmute, rewrite dna, etc.
Yet even tho they can do all those things i said and more, he's still seen as more powerful? That doesn't make a lick of sense and we both know it.
Its editorial and we both know it.
Hey, i've got a ring that i can use to rewrite my dna into lets say, Kryptonian dna, and i still retain the do anything fancy gadget on my ring.....that lets me do whatever as long as there's a charge and i have the mind to do it.
vs
I can punch hard, breath ice, glare lasers and have strong skin.
His simplicity hurts him in reality, but no, not when it's Superman.
But put enraged Hulk(maddest we've seen him) vs Superman, and suddenly the extra tricks make all the difference and Hulk is a one trick pony, right?
Hulk = One trick
Superman = 5 tricks
GL = Think up tricks as he goes along
Surfer = The same as GLYet, Superman is more powerful? Please, spare me the double standards.
And nope, i wasn't aware you guys changed the rules. Before, they were basically cbr rules, which is powerset is key.
Post how many times they attack creatures with full power(example like you stated) and then compare it to the amount of times he hasn't done it.
Then there is the fact that some of those feat were done in PC
In addition, you can have 99 ways to kill me, but you won't need it if the 1 always work.