Star Wars vs Star Trek, Lord of the Rings and Battlestar Galactica

Originally posted by jaden101
Yes, necessarily.

The Star Wars Celestials actually made a lot of the Star Wars clusters such as the Hapen systems. They also created the Maw, a cluster of black holes. They were very advanced. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but a black hole can suck up more than a few light years of stuff, right?

Odd that, because I've been reading wookipedia to try and validate your claim and couldn't find any mention of such high numbers regarding the CIS droid armies.

So...again...Link please.

CIS -> section about their military -> main article -> droid army

Yet the Borg have been canonically shown to analyse and completely bypass shields because it has nothing to do with the power of the shields and everything to do with their frequency.

Yet Star Wars shields have not shown to have a "frequency".

A trilithium torpedo does the exact same thing and one guy managed to make one by himself out of spare parts and some stolen trilithium.

Good for that guy. He must have been pretty smart.

The Borg have billions of them. An average cube either carried them or could make them on board. And there are billions of cubes.

Are you telling me that the Borg have billions of solar system busting weapons and yet in the show they keep on losing to the Federation? 😆

We're not talking about the politics behind it. We're talking about how the ships fought one another in space.

My point is that normally the ships wouldn't be that close together; they were because the CIS needed to get their transport ships close enough for a ground invasion.

In most space battles in Star Wars, battles occur accross tens of thousands of kilometers.

Meanwhile, in Star Trek, you see ships fighting eachother within 10 kilometers.

So I used canon star wars figures (from the films thus no higher canon available) to show that the empire, at it's height, had less than 1000 imperial class star destroyers.

Where?

Does SW have anything close the level of tech of the Dyson shell/sphere?...No...So no...SW worlds aren't more heavily defended because clearly their tech is eons behind that of many species in ST...Once again...No temporal or spacial based weapons...No time travel ability...No alternate universe travel ability...Yet you're still arguing that SW has more advanced tech. THEY DON'T...THEY JUST DON'T.

Little of what you mentioned would be combat effective against Star Wars.

Star Wars turbolasers: hundreds of millions of gigawatts
Star Trek phasers: a few gigawatts

How many times have I had to repeat myself on how the Krenim weapons work?

It must be at least 10...Yet you still can't comprehend it. If you don't know how it gets past shields by now then you're never going to. I've explained it simply enough for a retarded child to understand and yet you still can't grasp it.

If this Krenim time ship really is outside of space and time, why does it still have to travel through space using warp? 😕

The Star Wars Celestials actually made a lot of the Star Wars clusters such as the Hapen systems. They also created the Maw, a cluster of black holes. They were very advanced.

That's good...I'm happy for them.

Remind me...What use is this again?

CIS -> section about their military -> main article -> droid army

linklinklinklinklinklinklinklinklinklinklinklinklink?

Yet Star Wars shields have not shown to have a "frequency".

They're energy...They have a frequency. Nice try though. Desperate, but nice.

Good for that guy. He must have been pretty smart.

Apparently. If he can achieve the same effect as one of star wars most powerful superweapons.

Are you telling me that the Borg have billions of solar system busting weapons and yet in the show they keep on losing to the Federation?

Are you telling me that the Empire, which rules the galaxy and has quintillions of battle droids lost to a young boy, a pirate/smuggler and a princess who flew around the galaxy in a "bucket of bolts"?

My point is that normally the ships wouldn't be that close together; they were because the CIS needed to get their transport ships close enough for a ground invasion.

So how close would they normally be?....Battle of Endor close?...Where there was no objective of landing an army and yet they still fought the same way.

Little of what you mentioned would be combat effective against Star Wars.

You realise that in order to counter time based and space bending weapons that SW would actually have to be able to comprehend them yet SW has nothing that mentions either so why would they develop defences against weapons which they have never encountered?

Answer...They couldn't.

So stop spouting crap.

Originally posted by jaden101
False and already proven to be with canon figures.

Star Wars shields: tens of trillions of gigawatts
Star Trek shileds: a few thousand gigawatts

And this is relevant how?

Star Wars has a far superior industrial capability compared to Star Trek.

FROM 1991...ONCE AGAIN...NEXT GENERATION WENT ON FOR ANOTHER 3 YEARS WITH CANON FIGURES WITH THEN SUPER-SEED THE OLD FIGURES.

Show me a source that overrides the shield figures.

Assimilate it. Which, before you start another bullshit argument, they were just about to do before Q rescued the Enterprise.

Why didn't they assimilate Earth? Oh, because each time the Federation came up with an idea to defeat the borg. Interestingly enough, the borg seem incapable of defeating the Federation despite the borg apparently having millions of ships.

No use just repeating it...You have to give examples.

Battle Meditation
Luke used the Force to create an illusionary fleet of ships.
Force lightning

Star Wars turbolasers: hundreds of millions of gigawatts Star Trek phasers: a few gigawatts

Countered an proven as lies several times in this thread alone. Continuing to spout it is just trolling.

You've lost...badly...Just admit it and move on.

Originally posted by jaden101
That's good...I'm happy for them.

Remind me...What use is this again?

What if the Celestials create a bunch of black holes in borg space?

linklinklinklinklinklinklinklinklinklinklinklinklink?

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Separatist_Droid_Army

They're energy...They have a frequency. Nice try though. Desperate, but nice.

Prove that the borg can adapt to whatever frequency Star Wars shields use.

Apparently. If he can achieve the same effect as one of star wars most powerful superweapons.

That also applies to him achieving the same effect as Star Trek's most powerful superweapons.

Are you telling me that the Empire, which rules the galaxy and has quintillions of battle droids lost to a young boy, a pirate/smuggler and a princess who flew around the galaxy in a "bucket of bolts"?

quintillions of battle droids - almost all were shut down after the Clone Wars
young boy - Force user with among the highest Force potentials in the history of Star Wars
pirate/smuggler - Han Solo had immense luck, trained before in the Imperial military academy before leaving, and was pretty darn skilled.
Princess - Also has among the highest Force potentials

Besides, the Empire was really overconfident, and the main protagonists weren't the only one opposing the Empire. Ever heard of the Alliance to Restore the Republic?

So how close would they normally be?....Battle of Endor close?...Where there was no objective of landing an army and yet they still fought the same way.

Huh? The Battle of Endor was fought over a really long distance.

You realise that in order to counter time based and space bending weapons that SW would actually have to be able to comprehend them yet SW has nothing that mentions either so why would they develop defences against weapons which they have never encountered?

Answer...They couldn't.

So stop spouting crap.

You still haven't proven that the time weapon thingy can get past a planetary shield. Your claim is that since this time weapon thingy is apparently outside of space and time, shields won't stop it, but the ship still has to move through space using warp, showing that it's still affected by space and time.

Originally posted by jaden101
Countered an proven as lies several times in this thread alone. Continuing to spout it is just trolling.

You've lost...badly...Just admit it and move on.

These figures are based off of canon sources.

Star Wars has a far superior industrial capability compared to Star Trek.

Evidently not if at the height of the Empire's power they had 25,000 ships and the Borg had billions of vastly larger ships.

Clearly the Borg have more industrial capability to build ships. The numbers speak for themselves.

Show me a source that overrides the shield figures.

Already have...Voyager used a magnitude of power above gigawatts (exawatts) merely diverted to their sensor array from other systems. Clearly shows how gigawatts aren't considered vastly powerful.

For example, a small Ban'eth outpost was cloaked by a 9 million terrawatt cloaking device.

Why didn't they assimilate Earth? Oh, because each time the Federation came up with an idea to defeat the borg. Interestingly enough, the borg seem incapable of defeating the Federation despite the borg apparently having millions of ships.

Clearly don't understand the whole point of PIS do you?

Although you should because the entire SW saga depends on it.

For example, How did a few hundred thousand clones defeat supposedly quintillions of battle droids?...PIS.

Battle Meditation

How is this even remotely the same as anything i've mentioned?

Luke used the Force to create an illusionary fleet of ships.

The exact same thing happened in ST. Although it was double layered. The crew of Voyager were being manipulated through telepathy and when they found the source of the illusions they were experiencing were telepathically cloaked ships that surrounded them they were able to take action only to find that the ships themselves were a telepathically induced illusion.

Force lightning

Since when is force lightning a telepathic feat?

These figures are based off of canon sources.

1: A book is not higher canon than the tv shows or films

2: A book from 1991 is not higher canon than even a book from 1992 never mind the tv shows themselves.

GET IT INTO YOUR THICK HEAD.

What if the Celestials create a bunch of black holes in borg space?

Haha..the Borg create singularities (black holes) to travel to other planes of existence and conquered the species that lived there.

Prove that the borg can adapt to whatever frequency Star Wars shields use.

This is a ridiculous thing to request. It's like the harry potter vs the jedi thread where it descended into "The Jedi can't kill a wizard because the jedi have never been shown to kill a wizard" and vice versa.

Is this your pattern of logic? Because a Borg vessel has never been shown to assimilate a SW shield (because they are 2 species that exist in entirely different fictional franchises) then they I can't prove they can therefor they cant?

Is that what you're resorting to to win this debate?

It's not enough that I've shown that, in the ST galaxy, the Borg have adapted to assimilate several species shields, you now want specifically a SW shield which is obviously not possible to show.

In that case then show that the Sun Crushers weapon would work on a star from the ST galaxy...It's never been shown so where's the proof it would work?

Show me the death star destroying a ST vessel...It's never done it so it can't do it.

Quite stupid logic to resort to isn't it?...

That also applies to him achieving the same effect as Star Trek's most powerful superweapons.

He hasn't though has he?...I've already shown examples of ST weapons that can obliterate far more than a single planet. I've shown weapons that can decimate entire regions of space....Weapons that can erase entire species from ever existing and so every action that species ever did throughout all of history vanishes.

young boy - Force user with among the highest Force potentials in the history of Star Wars

Yet, at the time they defeated the Empire (The most powerful organisation in all Star Wars history) they weren't actually all that powerful were they?...That's why it's called "potential"...I have the potential to be the strongest and fastest man in the world...I'm not...But I have the potential.

Huh? The Battle of Endor was fought over a really long distance.

Funny that, because I just watched it and you can see a Mon Calamari cruiser fly within a couple of hundred feet of an imperial star destroyer.

You still haven't proven that the time weapon thingy can get past a planetary shield. Your claim is that since this time weapon thingy is apparently outside of space and time, shields won't stop it, but the ship still has to move through space using warp, showing that it's still affected by space and time.

I've given examples of the Krenim's temporal weapons bypassing both energy shields and matter.

As for the ship itself...It still has mass...Thus it has a finite speed (although this didn't stop the Voyager delta flyer...see below)

You're using a non argument. Just because it exists outside space and time doesn't mean that it can be anywhere at any time. (Unlike the delta flyer on Voyager that flew at infinite speed and existed at all places in the entire universe one instant...SW got anything to match that?)

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall

You still haven't proven that the time weapon thingy can get past a planetary shield. Your claim is that since this time weapon thingy is apparently outside of space and time, shields won't stop it, but the ship still has to move through space using warp, showing that it's still affected by space and time.

You're either the biggest troll I've seen here in some time or incredibly dense. Still can't decide, but I think troll with a side of dense.

Jaden's held your held and explained this to you 5-6 times now, if not more.

Repeat: The Krenim ship exist out of normal space-time, anything in normal space-time (which would include all of SW and your insistance of "planetary shields" *squak* "planetary shields!"😉 can't affect the ship, it's like a ghost, to dumb it down some for you.

All the ship need do is fire its time-weapon, and whatever it hits is erased from the time-line, along with corresponding connections, eg erase someone's father, that son/daughter is erased in the process too. It can (and has) done this to entire civilizations and it litterally has all the time in the universe to do so to SW.

Originally posted by jaden101
Haha..the Borg create singularities (black holes) to travel to other planes of existence and conquered the species that lived there.

WTF? When?

This is a ridiculous thing to request. It's like the harry potter vs the jedi thread where it descended into "The Jedi can't kill a wizard because the jedi have never been shown to kill a wizard" and vice versa.

Is this your pattern of logic? Because a Borg vessel has never been shown to assimilate a SW shield (because they are 2 species that exist in entirely different fictional franchises) then they I can't prove they can therefor they cant?

Is that what you're resorting to to win this debate?

It's not enough that I've shown that, in the ST galaxy, the Borg have adapted to assimilate several species shields, you now want specifically a SW shield which is obviously not possible to show.

In that case then show that the Sun Crushers weapon would work on a star from the ST galaxy...It's never been shown so where's the proof it would work?

Show me the death star destroying a ST vessel...It's never done it so it can't do it.

My point is that Star Wars shields are different as well as far superior to Star Trek shields. The borg can adapt to the latter, but that doesn't always mean that they can adapt to the former.

Quite stupid logic to resort to isn't it?...

Remember when you claimed that fanfiction was canon?

He hasn't though has he?...I've already shown examples of ST weapons that can obliterate far more than a single planet. I've shown weapons that can decimate entire regions of space....Weapons that can erase entire species from ever existing and so every action that species ever did throughout all of history vanishes.

There are also Star Wars weapons that can destroy more than a planet.

Yet, at the time they defeated the Empire (The most powerful organisation in all Star Wars history) they weren't actually all that powerful were they?...That's why it's called "potential"...I have the potential to be the strongest and fastest man in the world...I'm not...But I have the potential.

True, but the collapse of the Empire was still more complex and also believable than the failure of the borg to defeat the Federation.

Funny that, because I just watched it and you can see a Mon Calamari cruiser fly within a couple of hundred feet of an imperial star destroyer.

Maybe the cruiser was trying to get close. Note that they were trying to send starfighters to attack the Death Star.

I've given examples of the Krenim's temporal weapons bypassing both energy shields and matter.

Where?

As for the ship itself...It still has mass...Thus it has a finite speed (although this didn't stop the Voyager delta flyer...see below)

You're using a non argument. Just because it exists outside space and time doesn't mean that it can be anywhere at any time. (Unlike the delta flyer on Voyager that flew at infinite speed and existed at all places in the entire universe one instant...SW got anything to match that?)

Why would such a weapon that is supposedly outside of time and space still have to travel through space?

Originally posted by Robtard
You're either the biggest troll I've seen here in some time or incredibly dense. Still can't decide, but I think troll with a side of dense.

Jaden's held your held and explained this to you 5-6 times now, if not more.

Repeat: The Krenim ship exist out of normal space-time, anything in normal space-time (which would include all of SW and your insistance of "planetary shields" *squak* "planetary shields!"😉 can't affect the ship, it's like a ghost, to dumb it down some for you.

All the ship need do is fire its time-weapon, and whatever it hits is erased from the time-line, along with corresponding connections, eg erase someone's father, that son/daughter is erased in the process too. It can (and has) done this to entire civilizations and it litterally has all the time in the universe to do so to SW.

Then why does the ship still have to travel through space when it's apparently outside of it?

Originally posted by jaden101
Evidently not if at the height of the Empire's power they had 25,000 ships and the Borg had billions of vastly larger ships.

Clearly the Borg have more industrial capability to build ships. The numbers speak for themselves.

Maybe it's because a star destroyer requires far more resources to build than a borg cube.

Already have...Voyager used a magnitude of power above gigawatts (exawatts) merely diverted to their sensor array from other systems. Clearly shows how gigawatts aren't considered vastly powerful.

For example, a small Ban'eth outpost was cloaked by a 9 million terrawatt cloaking device.

Yet those aren't figures for shields

Clearly don't understand the whole point of PIS do you?

Although you should because the entire SW saga depends on it.

For example, How did a few hundred thousand clones defeat supposedly quintillions of battle droids?...PIS.

Explain how it's PIS. The Federation fended off the Borg using methods and tactics that Star Wars can also use.

How is this even remotely the same as anything i've mentioned?

Luke using Battle Meditation or some form of it sort of projected his power onto Jaina, temporarily amping her while making it look like she was Luke.

The exact same thing happened in ST. Although it was double layered. The crew of Voyager were being manipulated through telepathy and when they found the source of the illusions they were experiencing were telepathically cloaked ships that surrounded them they were able to take action only to find that the ships themselves were a telepathically induced illusion.

That's my point. Thanks for agreeing with me.

Since when is force lightning a telepathic feat?

It's speculative. However, there have been examples of Force attacks that could pulverize a person. A lot of these are TK.

Maybe it's because a star destroyer requires far more resources to build than a borg cube.

Well given that a borg cube is twice as large in all dimensions than a star destroyer is long then obviously a borg cube needs more resources to build.

Yet those aren't figures for shields

If they can divert exawatts to the sensors it shows how insignificant gigawatts are as a measurement of power compared to what even the tiny Voyager can put out.

Explain how it's PIS. The Federation fended off the Borg using methods and tactics that Star Wars can also use.

The plot induced stupidity is that the Borg simply didn't overwhelm the federation with sheer mass of numbers.

That's my point. Thanks for agreeing with me.

You're welcome. Not sure what i'm agreeing about other than that both SW and ST have used the same plot point though.

It's speculative. However, there have been examples of Force attacks that could pulverize a person. A lot of these are TK.

Telekinesis is not telepathy.

When it comes to a war, Star Wars has the advantage of Star Trek in most ways.

Star Wars has a larger population, more planets, better planetary defenses, better ground forces, more powerful space fleets, a greater industrial capability, better strategists and tacticians, greater logistical capabilities, and a bunch of other advantages.

If Star Wars wants to invade a major Star Trek planet, they would simply have to deal with the defending fleet and maybe a few ground forces.

If Star Trek wants to invade a major Star Wars planet, they would have to deal with deal with the defending fleet, minefields, a planetary shield, turbolaser defense systems as well as other ground defense systems, reinforcements that can be quickly sent via hyperspace, orbital platforms, ion cannons and a very large and formidable ground force.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Then why does the ship still have to travel through space when it's apparently outside of it?

Really, dude?. It's outside of regular space-time, not 'it doesn't exist in space or time.' It's also Science Fiction, it doesn't have to follow the laws of physics.

Nothing in regular space-time can affect it, this was clearly said/shown in the episode. Since Star Wars has nothing like this, it has no defenses or attacks against it, as the ship may as well not be there to them. Just accept it; this is only one way ST is immensely more powerful in terms of technology over Star Wars, just the way the franchises differ. Not plus or minus to either.

WTF? When?

When they assimilated species 259 in their native transmaterial energy plane.

My point is that Star Wars shields are different as well as far superior to Star Trek shields. The borg can adapt to the latter, but that doesn't always mean that they can adapt to the former.

So you are using that retarded logic?

By the same argument the SW ships can't penetrate the ST because they're completely different types of shields.

See how I can use that retarded logic too?

Remember when you claimed that fanfiction was canon?

Only person who has used fan fiction in here is you in your attempt to say that the star forge would be used to create thousands of sun crushers or the empire would make millions of ships.

True, but the collapse of the Empire was still more complex and also believable than the failure of the borg to defeat the Federation.

Yep...Midget bears with sticks and ropes defeating the galaxy's most powerful force ever is definitely more believable.

There are also Star Wars weapons that can destroy more than a planet.

Got weapons that can destroy areas of space hundreds of thousands of times larger than a star system?

Maybe the cruiser was trying to get close. Note that they were trying to send starfighters to attack the Death Star.

Tell you what. I'll go with what's seen on screen and you can go with the speculation.

Where?

Go back and read about Chroniton torpedoes.

Why would such a weapon that is supposedly outside of time and space still have to travel through space?

Because the planets that it attacks still exist in space.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
When it comes to a war, Star Wars has the advantage of Star Trek in most ways.

Star Wars has a larger population, more planets, better planetary defenses, better ground forces, more powerful space fleets, a greater industrial capability, better strategists and tacticians, greater logistical capabilities, and a bunch of other advantages.

If Star Wars wants to invade a major Star Trek planet, they would simply have to deal with the defending fleet and maybe a few ground forces.

If Star Trek wants to invade a major Star Wars planet, they would have to deal with deal with the defending fleet, minefields, a planetary shield, turbolaser defense systems as well as other ground defense systems, reinforcements that can be quickly sent via hyperspace, orbital platforms, ion cannons and a very large and formidable ground force.

LoL, called it. Wait a few pages and then rehash the same failed points. Trolling at its finest.

Just about everything, if not everything there you've said, has been countered or shown to be an outright lie.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
When it comes to a war, Star Wars has the advantage of Star Trek in most ways.

Star Wars has a larger population, more planets, better planetary defenses, better ground forces, more powerful space fleets, a greater industrial capability, better strategists and tacticians, greater logistical capabilities, and a bunch of other advantages.

If Star Wars wants to invade a major Star Trek planet, they would simply have to deal with the defending fleet and maybe a few ground forces.

If Star Trek wants to invade a major Star Wars planet, they would have to deal with deal with the defending fleet, minefields, a planetary shield, turbolaser defense systems as well as other ground defense systems, reinforcements that can be quickly sent via hyperspace, orbital platforms, ion cannons and a very large and formidable ground force.

Is this your happy place?...When these arguments have been pounded to dust you just repeat them and suddenly they are valid again?

Originally posted by jaden101
Well given that a borg cube is twice as large in all dimensions than a star destroyer is long then obviously a borg cube needs more resources to build.

Bigger does not always mean more resources.

If they can divert exawatts to the sensors it shows how insignificant gigawatts are as a measurement of power compared to what even the tiny Voyager can put out.

Yet a Star Wars star destroyer's shields have a heat dissipation of tens of trillions of gigawatts. That equates to quite a bit of exawatts.

The plot induced stupidity is that the Borg simply didn't overwhelm the federation with sheer mass of numbers.

Maybe because those millions of ships that the borg supposedly have are mostly smaller craft.

You're welcome. Not sure what i'm agreeing about other than that both SW and ST have used the same plot point though.

I was explaining how Luke has performed feats on par with those you listed and you basically agreed with me.

Telekinesis is not telepathy.

Oops, sorry. Well, some sith Force mind dominate powers can be pretty fatal.