Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
In the TV shows and movies, Star Trek has not shown any tanks, artillery or other vehicles...
Hovercycle - just an example of a ground vehicle as opposed to ground defence
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
In the TV shows and movies, Star Trek has not shown any tanks, artillery or other vehicles...
Hovercycle - just an example of a ground vehicle as opposed to ground defence
Originally posted by Impediment
The next person who re-quotes himself in this thread is gonna get a warning from me. Period.I'm sick and tired of this "I'm going to re-quote myself to sustain my argument" crap.
Either get a new spiel, or quit the debate so the trolling can subside.
Kid sodomized his own premise as to why Star Wars would win, yet now that premise no longer matters. Classic troll.
Originally posted by Robtard
Kid sodomized his own premise as to why Star Wars would win, yet now that premise no longer matters. Classic troll.
You're completely ignoring my arguments Mr. Hypocrite.
In a ground battle of similar numbers and starting position, Star Wars easily beats Star Trek. You admitted this
In a space battle of similar numbers and starting positioin, Star Wars easily beats Star Trek. I have proven this. Respond to my proofs or concede.
Strategically, tactically and logistically Star Wars easily outmatches Star Trek.
Star Wars > Star Trek in both space and land battles and in some of the larger scale elements such as economic and industrial capability and strategic and tactical leaders. I have proven this. Again, respond to my proofs or concede.
Basically, Star Wars > Star Trek in every major aspect related to a war.
By that logic, Star Wars wins.
Originally posted by CadoAngelus
Argo BuggyHovercycle - just an example of a ground vehicle as opposed to ground defence
None of those would stand up to a Star Wars ground force. A police hovecycle vs an AT-AT? ROFL
There isn't a definitive number for the number of borg cubes.
7 of 9 stated in Voyager the the collective consisted of millions of worlds and billions of vessels.
How do you know that it is the main vessel?
The very 1st line from the Borg cube's memory alpha page is.
The Borg cube was the primary vessel of the Borg Collective.
Also, being "insignificant" to the plotline does not always mean less powerful. TOAA is the most powerful being in Marvel and yet is rarely mentioned.
Completely irrelevant....again.
In DoE.
Quite certain I asked for specifics.
"far more advanced tech" huh? Star Wars technology is superior to Star Trek technology in most ways. The borg have not encountered shields as powerful as a Star Wars planetary shield.
And how are you in a position to know this given your complete ignorance of star trek. I've had to tell of some of the most basic things in star trek so clearly you don't watch it so you have no idea what the Borg have encountered.
Once again...Answer this question for once in your life. What weapons are there is star wars that come close to time manipulation and space manipulation...What tech comes close to the Dyson's sphere or the Krenim weapon ship? What species comes close to the numbers of the Borg in terms of vessels. What species comes close to having ships that are as powerful as species 8472?
The star forge provided a large supply of resources. Said resources could be used to make sun crushers.
So if we're being hypothetical then species 8472 is from and is the only inhabitant of an entire liquid universe so there could potentially be an infinite number of them.
Population: Star Wars, > 100 quadrillion civilians
And are these all armies or are the vast majority of them completely useless?
Planets: Star Wars, > a million planets
The Borg alone are quoted as having a million planets...All of which are drones thus all of which have one purpose. Conquering and assimilating other worlds...And the Borg only cover about a 10th of the galaxy. And that's 1 dimension of 1 galaxy of which they have encountered.
Planetary defenses: Star Wars, a planetary shield, minefields, ion cannons and such.
Dyson's sphere rapes your planetary defences in terms of tech. Ion cannons...hahaha...
Ground Forces: Star Wars, futuristic and advanced armies whereas Star Trek doesn't even have artillery or tanks
Clearly you have no knowledge of the Dominion war.
Space fleets: Star Wars, as shown with the statistics comparison
Your stats have been proven false on several occasions.
Industrial capability: Star Wars, millions of planets
Borg alone...Millions of planets...More vessels and larger vessels need more industrial capability. Clear that the Borg have more.
Strategists and tacticians: Star Wars, Thrawn, Revan, Ackbar and other great military geniuses
Not genius enough to stop them from being defeated by inferior opponents (or in the case of Thrawn, getting assassinated by his own guard).
Logistical capabilities: Star Wars, hypermatter, hyperdrive, stasis chambers and such, although Star Trek does have replicators
Bigger and more ships obviously means more logistical capability. A Malon vessel could transport 4 trillion isotons of stuff.
Economy: Star Wars, millions of planets and species
Economy is irrelevant in most ST species.
One of the main arguments for Star Trek is that the borg could adapt to any Star Wars weapon, but this is unproven. Besides, how do the borg adapt to a planetary shield? Star Wars shields operate differently and are usually more powerful than Star Trek shields.
The same argument can be applied in reverse. SW has never encountered ST shields...If they operate differently (which you have no basis for but i'll run with it.) then SW weapons can't effect ST shields.
If a borg fleet were to appear above Coruscant and try to attack, what about Sidious? The reborn Sidious in DE in a clone body was able to destroy an entire fleet of New Republic ships using a Force storm. The borg can't somehow "adapt" to the Force. Therefore, any borg invasion force would get destroyed by a Force storm.
Why do you still script that they would try and go anywhere near Coruscant?...Iconian gateway + Multi Kinetic Neutronic Mine = bye bye Corascant (and everything within 4 light years)
Luke can create an illusionary fleet of ships, luring the borg into a trap. The borg would see these illusionary ships and send a large amount of borg cubes to attack. Then, centerpoint station could destroy said fleet. The borg would be more wary after, but they would have a hard time figuring out which fleet is real and which is an illusion.
Nice scripting but no...The Borg would easily figure out if it was a real fleet. They've done it with holographic faked ships and they aren't affected by telepaths anyway.
Basically, almost all Star Trek ships would get one shotted or 'one volleyed' by a Star Wars star destroyer.
Yet a Borg cube took the firepower of the entire Federation fleet and wasn't even scratched.
Therefore, in a space engagement Star Wars would almost always win in a match with even numbers and starting positions.
So now it's even numbers rather than actual power?
Ok...What about and even number of Krenim time ships against....Anything that SW has.
Or an even number of species 8472 bioships (which were completely unscathed by even Borg weapons.
In a ground battle with similar numbers it would also be in favor of Star Wars. Star Wars ground troopers have superior weapons, armor and training compared to Star Trek ground troopers, and Star Wars also has tanks, artillery, walkers and other support vehicles, which are strangely lacking in Star Trek.
The Jem Hadar are vastly superior in every way to clone or storm troopers. They can be created faster than clones. They are stronger, more resiliant to damage, do not require food or sleep and have biological cloaking.
The Storm troopers were defeated by Ewoks with sticks, ropes and boulders.
The only way that Star Trek could get a majority is with that tiime ship of theirs, but even that hasn't been shown to be able to go through a powerful Star Wars planetary shield.
It's weapons simply erases the shield from time once it hits it. I really can't explain it any simpler than I have done previously. Nothing stops the Krenim time weapon except the Krenim time weapon. It is completely impervious to damage.
1. Memory Alpha talked about earlier reference books, not later, more up to date ones. Later reference books are still canon.
The shows are top tier canon. They trump everything else much as the SW films trump all other...And how many Star Destroyers were there in SW according to a new hope?...Less than 1000.
A civilian freighter from Star Wars flew within 1000 km of a neutron star without suffering any noticeable damage. Star Trek captains were reluctant to fly within 2 million km of a neutron star. A quote from stardestroyer.net: "The shields on a GCS cannot withstand the windstorms inside a gas giant's atmosphere"
In the most recent film the ORIGINAL Enterprise was within a tiny distance of a black hole and still wasn't affected.
HAHA! Pwnd...
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
None of those would stand up to a Star Wars ground force. A police hovecycle vs an AT-AT? ROFL
I didn't say they had to stand up against any SW ground support, I was just countering that ST does in fact have ground based vehicles despite your conclusion that they didn't.
Holy EFF, guys, I can't catch up in this thread. I keep reading and I come back the next day and more page are added! argh!
It wouldn't be so bad if the posts weren't so long.
Rest assured, I'll keep reading it, day by day, until I catch up.
One thing I'd like to point out: I used to be a Star Wars supporter until Jaden convinced meh. I just couldn't stand up to his logic and facts and his points made sense. But, after reading this thread, I do see some good arguments that I could have used, but it still doesn't overcome the awesomeness that the ST side has.
In terms of ground combat, I think that it's agreed that Star Wars far outclasses Star Trek. Janus101, if you disagree, please explain to me how Star Trek ground forces get past a Star Wars AT-AT.
In terms of space combat, Trekkies (IDK if that's an offensive term or not) seem to think that Star Trek has the advantage, but they don't. Star Wars is still superior in this area.
Firepower: A single turbolaser from a star destroyer easily vaporized a 10 mile long (I think) asteroid. It would apparently take an entire payload of proton torpedoes from Star Trek to do the same. Also, there are FAR more turbolasers on a Star Wars star destroyer than there are phasers on a Star Trek ship. Hundreds of millions of gigawatts vs far less gigawatts (give me a source showing Star Trek ships having as much firepower as Star Wars star destroyers if you can). Star Wars ftw.
Range: In the Battle of Yavin and the Battle of Endor Star Wars star destroyers were firing from tens of thousands of miles away or even more. In Star Trek ships would often encounter eachother in under a kilometer distance and sometimes even RAM eachother as a regular tactic.
Shields: The Battle of Kuat in Legacy of the Force: Inferno lasted for over week, showing that star destroyer shields can withstand turbolaser barrages straight on for weeks on end. In comparison, a volley of proton torpedoes (which does not take a week) can damage, say, the Enterprise. Also, a civilian freighter from Star Wars flew within 3000 miles of a neutron star without suffering any damage, but a Star Trek ship captain was apparently reluctant to fly within 2 million miles of one. 😉 Besides, Star Wars star destroyers have a heat dissapation of 70 trillion + gigawatts. That's far beyond any Star Trek ship. Do you have any canon sources to show otherwise?
Support: Star destroyers have thousands of starfighters and bombers, which can tear apart Star Trek ships. Also, star destroyers have ion cannons designed to target tens of trillions of gigawatts of shielding, and thus could easily tear apart the comparably poorly shielded other ships.
Also, there's the reactor power difference. Even your highest source puts Star Trek ships at 15 or so billion gigawatts per second, whereas a canon source puts Star Wars Aclamators (which are outdated by the OT) at tens of trillions of gigawatts per second. Your claim is that the 15 or so billion gigawatts was per second and the tens of trillions figure was not, but that's scientifically inaccurate since watts represents power over time. PWNED
Therefore, I have shown how Star Wars far outmatches Star Trek in both land and space combat.
Strategically, Star Wars has more planets, a greater industrial base, a greater economy, a higher population and better logistical capabilities.
In conclusion, Star Wars outmatches Star Trek in land combat, space combat and strategic consideration. How then, could Star Wars possibly lose?
Originally posted by jaden101
You are nothing if not predictable. Leave the thread for a few days...Return and repear the same fallacies.I'm done responding to your trolling. You've lost. Get over it.
Can you actually read and respond to my arguments (a lot of it is new, which you would realize if you were to actually read it and analyze it, and a lot of the old stuff has not been debunked yet) instead of ignoring them?
Me: *presents a long and rational argument supporting Star Wars*
You: ZOMG you're trolling and you lost hahahaha!!!!!
You're avoiding the argument.
I LEFT THE THREAD FOR A FEW DAYS BECAUSE THERE WAS A POWER OUTAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Can you actually [b]read and respond to my arguments (a lot of it is new, which you would realize if you were to actually read it and analyze it, and a lot of the old stuff has not been debunked yet) instead of ignoring them?Me: *presents a long and rational argument supporting Star Wars*
You: ZOMG you're trolling and you lost hahahaha!!!!!You're avoiding the argument.
I LEFT THE THREAD FOR A FEW DAYS BECAUSE THERE WAS A POWER OUTAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!! [/B]
So i've been "avoiding the argument" for the last 21 pages have I?
Fine:
1: The asteroid in ST you're referring to was artificial therefor any comparison to natural asteroid of nickel and iron is irrelevant. Lieutenant Kim even says that after the torpedo struck the target there shouldn't have been any fragments bigger than 1cm across.
2: I've already shown the canon figures for a single photon torpedo can be >20x the power of the Tsar Bomba which is 5 orders of magnitude in power output of any star destroyers weapons (remember me referring to yottawatts?)
Range: In the Battle of Yavin and the Battle of Endor Star Wars star destroyers were firing from tens of thousands of miles away or even more. In Star Trek ships would often encounter eachother in under a kilometer distance and sometimes even RAM eachother as a regular tactic.
Already proven that Borg torpedoes can fire at speeds of above warp 9.5...meaning that in the second it took to travel between the cube and the enterprise it travelled hundreds of millions of miles.
Shields: The Battle of Kuat in Legacy of the Force: Inferno lasted for over week, showing that star destroyer shields can withstand turbolaser barrages straight on for weeks on end. In comparison, a volley of proton torpedoes (which does not take a week) can damage, say, the Enterprise. Also, a civilian freighter from Star Wars flew within 3000 miles of a neutron star without suffering any damage, but a Star Trek ship captain was apparently reluctant to fly within 2 million miles of one. wink Besides, Star Wars star destroyers have a heat dissapation of 70 trillion + gigawatt
Already countered with the fact that the Enterprise A (The 1st one) was only a few hundred feet from the singularity of a black hole (vastly more destructive gravity than a neutron star)
The Borg also have weapons specifically designed to drain shields (couple that with their adaptation to energy weapons and after perhaps one cube gets destroyed then there would be nothing star wars could do to counter them)
Already countered the heat dissipation figures as irrelevant.
Support: Star destroyers have thousands of starfighters and bombers, which can tear apart Star Trek ships. Also, star destroyers have ion cannons designed to target tens of trillions of gigawatts of shielding, and thus could easily tear apart the comparably poorly shielded other ships.
Yet you've not actually shown any figures for those star fighters which, supposedly being hugely powerful are destroyed by a few flying droids which can tear them apart (also showing that they have no shields)
Also, there's the reactor power difference. Even your highest source puts Star Trek ships at 15 or so billion gigawatts per second, whereas a canon source puts Star Wars Aclamators (which are outdated by the OT) at tens of trillions of gigawatts per second. Your claim is that the 15 or so billion gigawatts was per second and the tens of trillions figure was not, but that's scientifically inaccurate since watts represents power over time. PWNED
If you're using the canon source that you used the last time regarding the wattage output of the Acclamator then it's not stated as being per second...It simply gives its total output. And no...Watts don't represent power over time. It is defined as 1 JOULE per second but the derived figures from that do not need to be expressed in time. It can be experssed in total energy which in the case of the Acclamator it clearly is.
Strategically, Star Wars has more planets, a greater industrial base, a greater economy, a higher population and better logistical capabilities.
You still claim this despite the fact that you say star wars has millions of planets and i've shown with canon sources that the borg alone has millions of planets yet they only cover roughly a 10th of the galaxy.
You still claim a greater industrial ability when canon figures show that the borg have billions of ships where as the empire only has hundreds and the borg ships are also vastly larger.
Both are clearly evident of the opposite of what you say...Either that or your understanding of industrial output is flawed.
In conclusion, Star Wars outmatches Star Trek in land combat, space combat and strategic consideration. How then, could Star Wars possibly lose?
Even if everything you were saying was true (which i've clearly proven it's not)...One word...Krenim.
How do you get around this canon fact from star wars. In the thrawn trilogy it is stated that about 500 old acclamator class ships would have swung the balance of power in the galaxy...That is how weak star wars is...500 ships.
How do you get around phased cloaks which allow star trek ships to pass through shields and solid matter without being detected.
How do you get around species 8472 who have the run of an entire universe to themselves and who's single manned vessels can show the same destructive force as the death star...and their could potentially be an uncountable number of them.
How do you counter weapons that can pass through shields as if they weren't there?
How do you fight a ship (Reman Scimitar) that you have no way to detect and which has a planet destroying weapon?
Originally posted by jaden101
So i've been "avoiding the argument" for the last 21 pages have I?Fine:
1: The asteroid in ST you're referring to was artificial therefor any comparison to natural asteroid of nickel and iron is irrelevant. Lieutenant Kim even says that after the torpedo struck the target there shouldn't have been any fragments bigger than 1cm across.
2: I've already shown the canon figures for a single photon torpedo can be >20x the power of the Tsar Bomba which is 5 orders of magnitude in power output of any star destroyers weapons (remember me referring to yottawatts?)
1. Do you have any evidence to suggest that this asteroid was any more durable than a standard asteroid of that size?
2. The heavy guns of an Aclamator (which is outdated in Star Wars by the time of the OT) have the force of 2.4 million megatons per shot. That's > 20 times the Tsar bomb, which is in comparison about 58 megatons. Also, there are a LOT of heavy guns on a star destroyer and far more ammo than a Federation starship would have proton torpedoes; in the Battle of Kuat star destroyers were firing at eachother for weeks.
Already proven that Borg torpedoes can fire at speeds of above warp 9.5...meaning that in the second it took to travel between the cube and the enterprise it travelled hundreds of millions of miles.
Yet how often is that used? How accurate it that? Federation starships were still able to get close enough that they were within a kilometer of a borg cube. Also, many starfighters inside star destroyers have hyperdrives, meaning that star destroyers essentially have an "attack range" of many lightyears.
Already countered with the fact that the Enterprise A (The 1st one) was only a few hundred feet from the singularity of a black hole (vastly more destructive gravity than a neutron star)
In what context was this situation?
The Borg also have weapons specifically designed to drain shields (couple that with their adaptation to energy weapons and after perhaps one cube gets destroyed then there would be nothing star wars could do to counter them)
Shields that are far weaker than Star Wars shields. I'm pretty sure that even you (no offense) wouldn't claim that a volley of proton torpedoes is more powerful than a week of continuous turbolaser volleys.
Already countered the heat dissipation figures as irrelevant.
Where?
Yet you've not actually shown any figures for those star fighters which, supposedly being hugely powerful are destroyed by a few flying droids which can tear them apart (also showing that they have no shields)
"flying droids" - irrelevant in this case, you make it seem as though "flying droids" are somehow weak. These "flying droids" act as starfighters with comparable weaponry. Your derogatory term has no substance.
If you're using the canon source that you used the last time regarding the wattage output of the Acclamator then it's not stated as being per second...It simply gives its total output. And no...Watts don't represent power over time. It is defined as 1 JOULE per second but the derived figures from that do not need to be expressed in time. It can be experssed in total energy which in the case of the Acclamator it clearly is.
On the contrary, a watt is one joule per second. Based on that, star destroyers have FAR greater reactor power than Federation starships.
You still claim this despite the fact that you say star wars has millions of planets and i've shown with canon sources that the borg alone has millions of planets yet they only cover roughly a 10th of the galaxy.
Yet what industrial base do the borg have? What economic base do they have? How many of those planets actually have significant population counts? Star Wars has millions of planets and most of them have populations in the billions or even trillions, and most of the planets have been developed and around for thousands of years.
You still claim a greater industrial ability when canon figures show that the borg have billions of ships where as the empire only has hundreds and the borg ships are also vastly larger.
BS. If numbers equated to industrial might, why is the USA still ahead of China industry and economically wise?
Both are clearly evident of the opposite of what you say...Either that or your understanding of industrial output is flawed.
By your rational the Romans would have a greater industrial capability than Canada since the former had a larger army.
Even if everything you were saying was true (which i've clearly proven it's not)...One word...Krenim.
I've already debunked this.
How do you get around this canon fact from star wars. In the thrawn trilogy it is stated that about 500 old acclamator class ships would have swung the balance of power in the galaxy...That is how weak star wars is...500 ships.
Yet one up to date Star Wars ship would pwn 50 or more Federation ships or even a borg cube. Reactor power of 200 trillion gigawatts vs ships with a reactor power of 15 or so billion at most. Hundreds of turbolasers with lots of ammo and asteroid vaporizing power vs a few phasers and proton torpedoes with less ammo, range and FAR less firepower.
How do you get around phased cloaks which allow star trek ships to pass through shields and solid matter without being detected.
Star Wars sensors are very advanced and Star Wars has cloaked ships as well.
Star Wars Jedi in Stealth X's would tear apart a Federation fleet, or even a borg cube. Shadow bombs are activated by the Force; the borg would not be able to detect them nor would they be able to adapt to them.
How do you get around species 8472 who have the run of an entire universe to themselves and who's single manned vessels can show the same destructive force as the death star...and their could potentially be an uncountable number of them.
"potentially"
How do you counter weapons that can pass through shields as if they weren't there?
Star Wars has these as well, ie Metal-Crystal Phase Shifters.
How do you fight a ship (Reman Scimitar) that you have no way to detect and which has a planet destroying weapon?
The sun crusher is virtually immune to damage and can destroy solar systems.
Sorry for quadruple post!
Revised and updated analysis (see my counter arguments to Janus101's latest rebuttal):
Firepower: Star Wars Heavy turbolasers: 2.4 million megatons. Star Trek proton torpedos: 1160 megatons (according to Janus101's claim of 20 times the tsar bomb)
Range: Star Wars star destroyers have starfighters, which give star destroyers an "attack range" of many light years (greater than even that of borg cube warp attacking method), sort of like aircraft carriers. Federation starships have been shown to combat borg cube in less then a kilometer attack range.
Shields: Star Wars star destroyers can withstand a week's bombardment of 2.4 million megaton turbolasers (although to be fair it may not have been continuous throughout the entire week), whereas a volley of 1160 megaon proton torpedos (according to the 20 times the tsar bomb figure) can damage Federation starships.
Support: Starfighters give star destroyers the role of a space aircraft carrier, essentially making them a battleship + aircraft carrier hybrid. A Star Wars star destroyer vs a federation starship would really be a Star Wars star destroyer + lots of starfighters vs a Federation starship, which would not even have enough weapons to fire at both the star destroyer and the starfighters.
Reactor power: 200 trillion gigawatts (and watts, contrary to Janus101's claims, refers to joules per second) vs 15 or so billion gigawatts.
1. Do you have any evidence to suggest that this asteroid was any more durable than a standard asteroid of that size?
Like I said, Lieutenant Kim stated that if it had been a typical nickel-iron asteroid it would have been easily destroyed. The fact that it wasn't is obviously indicative of the fact that it's more durable than an asteroid.
Incidentally...What was the composition of the asteroids that the star destroyer was firing at (Also remember the fact that an asteroid completely destroyed the command bridge of a star destroyer with it's ultra mega over NINE THOUSAAAAAAAND shields)
2. The heavy guns of an Aclamator (which is outdated in Star Wars by the time of the OT) have the force of 2.4 million megatons per shot. That's > 20 times the Tsar bomb, which is in comparison about 58 megatons. Also, there are a LOT of heavy guns on a star destroyer and far more ammo than a Federation starship would have proton torpedoes; in the Battle of Kuat star destroyers were firing at eachother for weeks.
And that figure is from where? Your arse? You're also just simply throwing all your old figures out the window....Goes to show you either how stupid you are or how utterly ridiculous and non sensical star wars canon is if it contradicts itself to that degree.
Why are you still comparing a star wars warship and an federation ship anyway?
It's the equivalent of having a debate as to which nation has the best football by comparing a top flight team from 1 nation (in the case of the acclamator) to a sunday league pub team from another (in the case of the galaxy class)
You also argue that the acclamator is an outdated ship...You do realise that the enterprise D was destroyed before Voyager was even launched.
Lets also bear in mind that I haven't even mentioned the ST federation 29th century ships which have massively increased technology. (time travel and temporal transporters for example)
Yet how often is that used? How accurate it that? Federation starships were still able to get close enough that they were within a kilometer of a borg cube. Also, many starfighters inside star destroyers have hyperdrives, meaning that star destroyers essentially have an "attack range" of many lightyears.
You've used this "How often is it used?" argument before...Does it matter?...How often is the death star used?...Not often...Does this mean it can't be used in the argument?...Of course not.
Good for the starfighters...I'm sure they wont last all that long against an equal amount of species 8472 bioships.
In what context was this situation?
Have you not seen the 2009 Star Trek film?
Basically the enemy (Nero) uses a tiny blob of a substance called red matter to create black hole in the centre of Vulcan that was big enough to destroy the planet. When the enterprise destroys Nero's ship (along with a massive amount of the red matter) it causes a vastly bigger black hole to form. The enterprise goes to maximum warp but stays still because of the black hole pulling it in. It is only a couple of hundreds feet from the singularity at this point.
Shields that are far weaker than Star Wars shields. I'm pretty sure that even you (no offense) wouldn't claim that a volley of proton torpedoes is more powerful than a week of continuous turbolaser volleys.
It wouldn't matter if the shields were stronger or not...They'd still be drained.
Why would I be offended at me?
"flying droids" - irrelevant in this case, you make it seem as though "flying droids" are somehow weak. These "flying droids" act as starfighters with comparable weaponry. Your derogatory term has no substance.
I was actually talking about the raspy little buzz droids that crawl over the star fighters. So yeah, my argument has substance.
On the contrary, a watt is one joule per second. Based on that, star destroyers have FAR greater reactor power than Federation starships.
Watts themselves aren't measured by unit of time...They are derived from joules which are so that they don't have to be given by unit of time.
Yet what industrial base do the borg have? What economic base do they have? How many of those planets actually have significant population counts? Star Wars has millions of planets and most of them have populations in the billions or even trillions, and most of the planets have been developed and around for thousands of years
They have the same amount of planets as the entire empire's galaxy do and they are 1 species. Why are you even asking about economy though. It's totally irrelevant. The Borg don't have or need an economy.
As for populations. The entire Borg collective have one purpose. To achieve perfection by the forced assimilation of other species. This means that it is effectively 1 massive army...Can the same be said about the population of the empire?...Is it made entirely of soldiers?...No...In fact only a tiny fraction of it is. As for the population...Take the assimilated earth as shown in First Contact...11 billion...All Borg.
BS. If numbers equated to industrial might, why is the USA still ahead of China industry and economically wise?
Again, the economic factor is completely and utterly irrelevant as all it does is put a monetary valuation on a country and is no measure of how much physical goods are manufactured.
You do also realise that most of the US's economic gains aren't made from manufacturing and exporting products, don't you? It's actually from the finance industry.
By your rational the Romans would have a greater industrial capability than Canada since the former had a larger army.
You're even managing to twist your own arguments now. I didn't think it was possible for anyone to be as genuinely stupid as you're being.
Look...You argue that Star Wars has a bigger industrial might behind it based on the fact that you thought it had more and bigger ships...I proved you wrong with the figures...Get over it.
I've already debunked this.
No...You argued that the Krenim haven't encoutered shields as powerful as SW shields when the fact remains that the power of shields has absolutely nothing to do with how the Krenim weapons work...They simply bypass shields altogether by not existing in the same space and time as the shields do. You can't debunk that...It's the facts...Set in stone...SW has nothing to counter it because there's never been any mention of weapons or technology that comes close to it anywhere in star wars.
Yet one up to date Star Wars ship would pwn 50 or more Federation ships or even a borg cube. Reactor power of 200 trillion gigawatts vs ships with a reactor power of 15 or so billion at most. Hundreds of turbolasers with lots of ammo and asteroid vaporizing power vs a few phasers and proton torpedoes with less ammo, range and FAR less firepower.
*SQWAUK...SQWAUK
Star Wars sensors are very advanced and Star Wars has cloaked ships as well.
We've been through this...SW sensors on their most advanced and powerful ship couldn't detect R2D2 and C3P0 or Luke, Obi-wan, Han Solo and Princess Leia from wandering around relatively unnoticed.
Even a team who's job it is to search captured vessels couldn't detect then when they were hiding under the floor. Not exactly very advanced sensors compared to ST who can give the exact pin point location of a person on a planet while in orbit or internal sensors that can tell exactly where and when a person has infiltrated the ship.
They have ships that can hide themselves from sensors to a degree in the same way that stealth fighters hide from radar...They don't physically hide from view.
Star Wars Jedi in Stealth X's would tear apart a Federation fleet, or even a borg cube. Shadow bombs are activated by the Force; the borg would not be able to detect them nor would they be able to adapt to them.
Based on what logic?...Because you don't want them to.
You also realise that a shadow bomb is just a proton torpedo that is guided to its target by a Jedi rather than a guidance system?
Unless you're arguing that the Borg couldn't detect a proton torpedo?
"potentially"
An entire liquid universe in which they are the sole surviving species because they've wiped everything else out for being weak.
The sun crusher is virtually immune to damage and can destroy solar systems.
We've talked about the sun crusher numerous times and compared it to a trilithium torpedo...Repeating it's limited merits doesn't make it any better than your previous repetitions of it do.
Besides...Virtually immune to damage isn't the same as completely immune to damage like the Krenim time ship is.
Originally posted by jaden101
[B]Like I said, Lieutenant Kim stated that if it had been a typical nickel-iron asteroid it would have been easily destroyed. The fact that it wasn't is obviously indicative of the fact that it's more durable than an asteroid.Incidentally...What was the composition of the asteroids that the star destroyer was firing at (Also remember the fact that an asteroid completely destroyed the command bridge of a star destroyer with it's ultra mega over NINE THOUSAAAAAAAND shields)
Good point, but my 2.4 million megatons vs 1160 megatons point still stands. Star Wars star destroyers can take many hits from the former, yet Star Trek ships can get destroyed by the latter.
And that figure is from where? Your arse? You're also just simply throwing all your old figures out the window....Goes to show you either how stupid you are or how utterly ridiculous and non sensical star wars canon is if it contradicts itself to that degree.
I got them from the same source that I've been using as statistics (and that you've been accepting the Star Wars numbers, which is what I'm using in this case) for the majority of this debate. Stop dodging the point. 2.4 million megatons (Star Wars heavy turbolasers PER SHOT) vs 1160 megatons (Star Trek proton torpedos).
Why are you still comparing a star wars warship and an federation ship anyway?
It's the equivalent of having a debate as to which nation has the best football by comparing a top flight team from 1 nation (in the case of the acclamator) to a sunday league pub team from another (in the case of the galaxy class)
You also argue that the acclamator is an outdated ship...You do realise that the enterprise D was destroyed before Voyager was even launched.
Lets also bear in mind that I haven't even mentioned the ST federation 29th century ships which have massively increased technology. (time travel and temporal transporters for example)
Yet this "sunday league pub team" has been able to combat a lot of professional teams.
You're still dodging the point. You were so on to bragging about your "20 times tsar bomb!!!" figure when Star Wars heavy turbolasers are 41379.3103 times tsar bomb.
You've used this "How often is it used?" argument before...Does it matter?...How often is the death star used?...Not often...Does this mean it can't be used in the argument?...Of course not.
Good for the starfighters...I'm sure they wont last all that long against an equal amount of species 8472 bioships.
Explain to me how a bunch of "bioships" will be able to even hit a bunch of starfighters.
Have you not seen the 2009 Star Trek film?
Basically the enemy (Nero) uses a tiny blob of a substance called red matter to create black hole in the centre of Vulcan that was big enough to destroy the planet. When the enterprise destroys Nero's ship (along with a massive amount of the red matter) it causes a vastly bigger black hole to form. The enterprise goes to maximum warp but stays still because of the black hole pulling it in. It is only a couple of hundreds feet from the singularity at this point.
Oh you mean that. Yes, I have seen the 2009 Star Trek film. That black hole quite clearly wasn't as powerful as a real black hole. It only destroyed a planet, didn't bend light and would have destroyed the Enterprise. The Enterprise's shield heat dissipation was around 3000 gigawatts (you dispute this, but you're disputing figures refer to later version of the Enterprise, and even those would not stand up to a black hole), which would not stop a black hole. In fact, shields would not be able to stop a black hole at all. Shields cannot stop gravity.
It wouldn't matter if the shields were stronger or not...They'd still be drained.
Why would I be offended at me?
But drained at what rate? An analogy to your faulty argument would be a device that can suck up a pond and then claiming that it can suck up the Ocean.
Oh, and Star Wars has those metal-crystal phase shifter weapons.
I was actually talking about the raspy little buzz droids that crawl over the star fighters. So yeah, my argument has substance.
Yet those buzz droids are far more powerful than their size suggests. By your logic, plate mail must not have been that tough since a "tiny" handgun can pierce it.
In fact, you've given me an argument. How will a Federation starship deal with Star Wars buzz droids all over it destroying its hull? What about a borg cube? The borg seem to have trouble adapting to projectile weapons and melee weapons. Buzz droids could tear apart a borg cube.
Watts themselves aren't measured by unit of time...They are derived from joules which are so that they don't have to be given by unit of time.
Correct. A reactor with a power of 200 trillion gigawatts would mean that the reactor is constantly emitting 200 trillion gigawatts. That is > than your 15 billion gigawatt claim. This shows the huge power difference between Star Wars (200 trillion gigawatts) vs Star Trek (15 billion gigawatts).
They have the same amount of planets as the entire empire's galaxy do and they are 1 species. Why are you even asking about economy though. It's totally irrelevant. The Borg don't have or need an economy.
As for populations. The entire Borg collective have one purpose. To achieve perfection by the forced assimilation of other species. This means that it is effectively 1 massive army...Can the same be said about the population of the empire?...Is it made entirely of soldiers?...No...In fact only a tiny fraction of it is. As for the population...Take the assimilated earth as shown in First Contact...11 billion...All Borg.
100 quadrillion civilians > the population of the borg. Remember that those 100 quadrillion civilians that are fit for duty can be drafted, and many already own blasters.
Again, the economic factor is completely and utterly irrelevant as all it does is put a monetary valuation on a country and is no measure of how much physical goods are manufactured.
You do also realise that most of the US's economic gains aren't made from manufacturing and exporting products, don't you? It's actually from the finance industry.
You're even managing to twist your own arguments now. I didn't think it was possible for anyone to be as genuinely stupid as you're being.
Look...You argue that Star Wars has a bigger industrial might behind it based on the fact that you thought it had more and bigger ships...I proved you wrong with the figures...Get over it.
Star Wars has millions of worlds, many with populations in the billions or even trillions, billions of trade routes, billions of companies, billions of trading ships vs Star Trek, which does not have anywhere near as large of an infrastructure as Star Wars.
No...You argued that the Krenim haven't encoutered shields as powerful as SW shields when the fact remains that the power of shields has absolutely nothing to do with how the Krenim weapons work...They simply bypass shields altogether by not existing in the same space and time as the shields do. You can't debunk that...It's the facts...Set in stone...SW has nothing to counter it because there's never been any mention of weapons or technology that comes close to it anywhere in star wars.
I do have counter arguments for this, and I will explain them after we get this space combat debate over with (seriously, I'm not stalling).
*SQWAUK...SQWAUK
We've been through this...SW sensors on their most advanced and powerful ship couldn't detect R2D2 and C3P0 or Luke, Obi-wan, Han Solo and Princess Leia from wandering around relatively unnoticed.
Even a team who's job it is to search captured vessels couldn't detect then when they were hiding under the floor. Not exactly very advanced sensors compared to ST who can give the exact pin point location of a person on a planet while in orbit or internal sensors that can tell exactly where and when a person has infiltrated the ship.
They have ships that can hide themselves from sensors to a degree in the same way that stealth fighters hide from radar...They don't physically hide from view.
BS. "on their most advanced and powerful ship" - the novel Star Wars: Death Star reveals that the Death Star had crap security by Star Wars standards.
Based on what logic?...Because you don't want them to.
You also realise that a shadow bomb is just a proton torpedo that is guided to its target by a Jedi rather than a guidance system?
Unless you're arguing that the Borg couldn't detect a proton torpedo?
Explain how the borg would be able to hit Jedi in Stealth X's.
An entire liquid universe in which they are the sole surviving species because they've wiped everything else out for being weak.
...And?
We've talked about the sun crusher numerous times and compared it to a trilithium torpedo...Repeating it's limited merits doesn't make it any better than your previous repetitions of it do.
Besides...Virtually immune to damage isn't the same as completely immune to damage like the Krenim time ship is.
A ship carrying a trilithium torpedo can be intercepted and/or destroyed. The sun crusher would be much more difficult to stop.
In conclusion, Star Wars star destroyers would be able to one shot most Star Trek ships. The latter gets harmed by 1160 megaton proton torpedos, so explain to me how they'd stand up to a star destroyer with hundreds of turbolaser batteries each firing 2.4 million megatons with a firing rate of about one every two seconds when they can't even stand up to a few 1160 megaton weapons?
Good point, but my 2.4 million megatons vs 1160 megatons point still stands. Star Wars star destroyers can take many hits from the former, yet Star Trek ships can get destroyed by the latter.
How does 1 hit completely obliterating the entire command bridge (the sticky up bit on a star destroyer) equate to it being able to take many hits?
I got them from the same source that I've been using as statistics (and that you've been accepting the Star Wars numbers, which is what I'm using in this case) for the majority of this debate. Stop dodging the point. 2.4 million megatons (Star Wars heavy turbolasers PER SHOT) vs 1160 megatons (Star Trek proton torpedos).
Your wattage to megatons translation is completely off...So it's either 1 or the other. At least get your stats right before using them otherwise shifting the goalposts makes the entire debate unworkable.
You're still dodging the point. You were so on to bragging about your "20 times tsar bomb!!!" figure when Star Wars heavy turbolasers are 41379.3103 times tsar bomb.
Yet the tsar bombs gave out yottawatts of energy compared to your gigawatts of energy.
See in inconsistencies of your argument?
Explain to me how a bunch of "bioships" will be able to even hit a bunch of starfighters.
How would they not?
Stupid argument.
Again.
Oh you mean that. Yes, I have seen the 2009 Star Trek film. That black hole quite clearly wasn't as powerful as a real black hole. It only destroyed a planet, didn't bend light and would have destroyed the Enterprise. The Enterprise's shield heat dissipation was around 3000 gigawatts (you dispute this, but you're disputing figures refer to later version of the Enterprise, and even those would not stand up to a black hole), which would not stop a black hole. In fact, shields would not be able to stop a black hole at all. Shields cannot stop gravity.
No...It was a real black hole...And no...It wasn't the small black hole that destroyed Vulcan that they escaped from...It was the massive black hole caused by the entire amount of red matter.
You're arguing with what was seen on screen...The 1st and extremely inferior enterprise withstood being within a few hundred feet of a black hole...fact.
But drained at what rate? An analogy to your faulty argument would be a device that can suck up a pond and then claiming that it can suck up the Ocean.
They drained them at a % so the initial starting point would be irrelevant.
Oh, and Star Wars has those metal-crystal phase shifter weapons.
Good for them.
Star Wars has millions of worlds, many with populations in the billions or even trillions, billions of trade routes, billions of companies, billions of trading ships vs Star Trek, which does not have anywhere near as large of an infrastructure as Star Wars.
The Borg alone have billions of worlds...They occupy 1/10th of the galaxy. They've created a massively larger fleet of far larger ships...This requires a larger infrastructure....Fact.
In fact, you've given me an argument. How will a Federation starship deal with Star Wars buzz droids all over it destroying its hull? What about a borg cube? The borg seem to have trouble adapting to projectile weapons and melee weapons. Buzz droids could tear apart a borg cube.
The Borg's nanotechnolgy would easily deal with buzzdroids.
The Borg also don't have trouble adapting to projectile weaponry as they adapted to torpedos easily enough (which are projectiles until they impact but are stopped by shields)
Besides...The borg would easily assimilate a buzz droid and know how to counter them pretty much instantly.
Correct. A reactor with a power of 200 trillion gigawatts would mean that the reactor is constantly emitting 200 trillion gigawatts. That is > than your 15 billion gigawatt claim. This shows the huge power difference between Star Wars (200 trillion gigawatts) vs Star Trek (15 billion gigawatts).
Hahaha....No...If a reactor is said to produce a certain amount of energy without a time factor then that's its total energy output. Not at any instant....Nice try.
100 quadrillion civilians > the population of the borg. Remember that those 100 quadrillion civilians that are fit for duty can be drafted, and many already own blasters.
Drafted and then what?...Packed like sardines in to the empires tiny number of ships?
Bit pointless drafting civillians when you've got nothing to put them to war in.
Besides...We're not dealing with the hypothetical here are we otherwise I could say that the Borg gradually assimilate all the outer rim worlds (along with all their inhabitants) and turn the empires people against them.
I do have counter arguments for this, and I will explain them after we get this space combat debate over with (seriously, I'm not stalling).
So star wars does have temporal shields and/or weapons?
Or ways to hit and destroy a ship that exists outside their own space and time?
This'll be interesting.
BS. "on their most advanced and powerful ship" - the novel Star Wars: Death Star reveals that the Death Star had crap security by Star Wars standards.
Hey...I'm only going by what is on screen in the highest canon films...If you want to toss that aside then good for you, son.
Explain how the borg would be able to hit Jedi in Stealth X's.
It's position is given away once it fires its weapons...It'd be relatively easy to hit by then...If empire troops can hit an x-wing with manually guided laser batteries then i'm sure the Borg's tracking systems would be easily capable of hitting it.
...And?
😆
Nice come back...If you can't genuinely see how an entire universe of planet destroying bio weapons would utterly rape a single galaxy of star wars armies then you really are just in denial.
A ship carrying a trilithium torpedo can be intercepted and/or destroyed. The sun crusher would be much more difficult to stop.
Who says it has to be on a ship...I'll mention it again seeing as you still haven't even addressed it...The Iconian Gateway.