Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
200 trillion gigawatts of reactor power (Star Wars) vs 15 billion gigawatts (Star Trek, and based off of Janus101's calculations which you support).Also, what about AT-ATs?
Oh, and explain to me why Federation ground troops get overrun by Kilgon ground troops charging into battle with melee weapons. 😉
Yes, we're well aware you can copy/paste your incorrect math. Doesn't make it any more correct though.
What about AT-ATs? A ST ship from space can obliterate one.
"Klingon", not how you spelled it, just an FYI. You also know nothing of Klingons. They do? I thought you just claimed Star Trek doesn't have ground forces. Make up your mind.
Explain to me ho the Emperor's best forces get beaten by Ewoks? <--- This actually happened.
Originally posted by Robtard
Yes, we're well aware you can copy/paste your incorrect math. Doesn't make it any more correct though.
It's not my math. It's a combination of canon Star Wars sources and Janus101's math, which you support. I don't understand why you keep on claiming that it's my math.
What about AT-ATs? A ST ship from space can obliterate one.
Actually, that's debatable. AT-AT hulls are very tough. Also, I could use this logic against you for your forces. Oh, and those ships aren't all that accurate, since they often have to close to under a kilometer range for accuracy.
BTW, we were talking about ground combat in that point.
"Klingon", not how you spelled it, just an FYI. You also know nothing of Klingons. They do? I thought you just claimed Star Trek doens't have ground forces. Make up your mind.
Stop dodging my point. Why do you accuse me of doing that when you yourself keep on doing it? My question was a WHY question. Your answer doesn't answer it.
WHY do said troopers get overrun by guys charging in with melee weapons? And WTF? When did I say that they didn't have ground forces?
Explain to me ho the Emperor's best forces get beaten by Ewoks? <--- This actually happened.
I expected for you to say this. It's still taken out of context and not related to the actual point (hence another example of you dodging the point). I didn't claim that Star Wars blasters could take out an entire battalion, so this isn't related to what the point was about. You're redirecting things.
Again:
200 trillion gigawatts (CANON Star Wars source) vs 15 billion gigawatts (Jaden101's claim for Star Trek, which you support)
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
It's not my math. It's a combination of canon Star Wars sources and Janus101's math, which you support.Actually, that's debatable. AT-AT hulls are very tough. Also, I could use this logic against you for your forces. Oh, and those ships aren't all that accurate, since they often have to close to under a kilometer range for accuracy.
Stop dodging my point. Why do you accuse me of doing that when you yourself keep on doing it? My question was a WHY question. Your answer doesn't answer it.
WHY do said troopers get overrun by guys charging in with melee weapons? And WTF? When did I say that they didn't have ground forces?
I expected for you to say this. It's still taken out of context and not related to the actual point (hence another example of you dodging the point). I didn't claim that Star Wars blasters could take out an entire battalion, so this isn't related to what the point was about. You're redirecting things.
Regurgitating lies and garbage is just that.
I see, you take it upon yourself to just say "Star Trek ships aren't accurate", when they have computer targeting and they're seen firing from extremely long distances, something while in warp. The misses come from other ships making evasive counters. Funny about that "under a kilometer range for accuracy", when close ship combat ala 15th century sea-combat is something seen a lot in SW. Man, you fail.
And I'm asking you where do you get your 'grounds forces over-run by Kilgons(sic) wielding swords' from? You obviously know nothing of Klingons, a warrior carriers ranged weapons (Klingon Disruptor), the Bat'Leth is for CQC. Just another example of how you know nothing of ST.
No, you're dodging now. You tried to make some point of "Kilgons" overrunning Federation troops, but it failed. So now you dodge the counter that the finest Imperial forces were beaten by stone-age midgets, as a comparison. Typical dodge of you, nothing new.
You can't try and bring PIS as a valid argument against Star Trek, while ignoring it for Star Wars, well, you did actually try. It's all you've go left, nonsense tactics.
Originally posted by Robtard
Regurgitating lies and garbage is just that.I see, you take it upon yourself to just say "Star Trek ships aren't accurate", when they have computer targeting and they're seen firing from extremely long distances, something while in warp. The misses come from other ships making evasive counters. Funny about that "under a kilometer range for accuracy", when close ship combat ala 15th century sea-combat is something seen a lot in SW. Man, you fail.
And I'm asking you where do you get your 'grounds forces over-run by Kilgons(sic) wielding swords' from? You obviously know nothing of Klingons, a warrior carriers ranged weapons (Klingon Disruptor), the Bat'Leth is for CQC. Just another example of how you know nothing of ST.
No, you're dodging now. You tried to make some point of "Kilgons" overrunning Federation troops, but it failed. So now you dodge the counter that the finest Imperial forces were beaten by stone-age midgets, as a comparison. Typical dodge of you, nothing new.
You can't try and bring PIS as a valid argument against Star Trek, while ignoring it for Star Wars, well, you did actually try. It's all you've go left, nonsense tactics.
You're still dodging a point that I've been bringing up for several pages.
200 trillion gigawatts (Star Wars CANON source) vs 15 billion gigawatts (Jaden101's calculations which you support). Do you have a counter for this? Your only counter is that I based it off of "non canon sources" and "faulty math", which I have shown is incorrect. The Star Wars figure is CANON, and the Star Trek figure comes from Jaden101, who's calculations YOU AGREE WITH.
Originally posted by The Nuul
AT-AT are clumsy as shit and they easily got tripped.
Argument made out of ignorance. They weren't "easily" tripped; they were tripped by a HUGE amount of thick DURASTEEL rope. Star Wars snowspeeders can do that, but Star Trek doesn't have fighters that can do that (they don't have durasteel BTW) without getting shot.
Explain to me why in Star Trek ramming is an effective tactic.
If you plant something with as much mass as a star ship with enough speed it'll cause collosal damage. It's also not so much of a tactic as
a last ditch attempt to destroy your enemy once your weapons are depleted or damaged beyond repair.
These are canon stats. Like it or not, 2.4 million megatons is far more powerful than 1160 megatons.
So which stats are right?...They can't both be because they're completely different. Which is the problem with star wars...Massive inconsistency. Which means the only thing you can really rely on is what you see on screen (as opposed to in additional books etc)
"How would they not" - I don't have to prove a negative. You made the claim that those bioships would destroy Star Wars starfighters. You have to prove it.
If the millenium falcon can hit tie fighters with sit on swivelling gun turrets that are basically a laser version of those seen on WW2 bombers then it goes without saying that tech as advanced as species 8472 bio ships would easily be able to.
Yet this has nothing to do with shields, since no amount of shielding can stop a black hole.
So you bring up the whole withstanding the pressures of a black hole argument...Then I see and raise your argument by a massive degree with the oldest star trek enterprise ship and now you're saying it's a pointless argument anyway...Way to go Sherlock.
That's an impossibility. They can't simply drain them at a %. They would have to drain them at a certain rate. Otherwise, why drain 50% of a 2 gigawatt shield when you're capable of draining 50% of a 200 gigawatt shield, which would be enough to easily drain a 2 gigawatt shield?
So it's an impossibility to simply change the yield of a weapon is it?
No.
Huh? You changed it from "millions" to "billions"?
A typo...Shoot me...It gets a bit draining trying to hammer basic maths through a head as thick as yours.
Oh, and your "omg they occupy 1/10th of the galaxy!" claim is bogus. Star Wars civilization by the PT has not only occupied pretty much every inhabitable planet, but has also mapped out every star system in the galaxy. Obviously Star Trek hasn't done this since the Enterprise still has the objective of discovering new life.
You're entirely missing the point...You say that SW has mapped the entire galaxy and has millions of world...I'm saying that Borg space alone has millions of world and the Borg only occupy a 10th of their galaxy...Quite obviously equating to the fact that there will be 10 times more planets in ST than there is in SW.
LOL classic Trekkie arguments, using fancy terms such as "nanotechnology" without explaining how nanotechnology is supposed to deal with buzz droids.
They can change technology (and biology) at the molecular level and assimilate it. Happy now?
Even Star Wars starfighters are actually far more powerful than regular Federation starships from Star Trek.
Clearly not given that, as an example, the lasers on a Naboo star fighter only knock droids about 40 feet across a room (As seen by Anakin when he accidentally pilots one in Phantom Menace)
A borg cube trying to attack a Star Wars star destroyer would get attacked by starfighters from a very far distance.
And if a Borg cube can come out of fighting the entire federation fleet completely without damage then how much damage is a star fighter (or a fleet of them) going to do?...None...
200 trillion gigawatts vs 15 billion gigawatts. The former is higher than the latter. Star Wars Star destroyers have FAR more powerful reactors than Star Trek starship.
The former is total and the later is per second....Get over it.
Besides, they don't even have to send them in fleets. They would arm them and watch as a bunch of troopers get repelled by huge mobs of civilians.
What are you on about "get mobbed"...Can SW civilians all of a sudden just march off a planet's surface and into space?
Star Wars has billions of ships; star destroyers aren't the only kind of ship.
So why would the 500 ships of the Katana fleet change the balance of power in the galaxy?...Why would Han say that it would take over a 1000 star destroyers with more fire power than is possible to destroy Alderaan? (clearly indicative the empire, at it's strongest, doesn't have 1000 star destroyers?)
Faulty logic. Show me where the OT contradicts my source. I'm not "tossing it aside" because there isn't a source from the OT talking about the quality of security, good or bad, of the Death Star. Stop lying.
So i'm lying that a dedicated search team couldn't find Luke et all hiding on the ship?...I'm lying that R2 and C3P0 were basically able to wander around the death star unnoticed?
You do realise that the original trilogy trumps whatever your source is...The films are top tier canon and are taken above all other canon.
"It's position is given away once it fires its weapons" - false. That's what shadow bombs are for. Shadow bombs are activated by the Force and regular sensors cannot track them.
Might want to check the 1st paragraph and the Jedi StealthX on wookipedia.
The StealthX was described as being smaller than the XJ-series X-wing. It featured equipment that hid the craft both visually and tactically, though position was given away if proton torpedoes were used or if the pilot broadcasted over the comlink.
As I've already stated...The shadow bombs are just a proton torpedo guided by the force.
"an entire universe of planet destroying bio weapons" - prove it. Prove that they have more than one.
Well there's hundreds of them seen on screen in voyager and they continued to pour through the rifts from their own universe.
You're still ignoring the HUGE firepower difference. Hundreds of 2.4 million megaton heavy turbolasers + almost a hundred starfighters vs 1160 megaton proton torpedos with relatively little ammo and range.
Can a few star fighters obliterate a planet in seconds?...No...But a few equally sized species 8472 can...Clearly superior firepower.
Is there any weapon in SW with the destructive power of the Borg multi kinetic neutronic mine than can destroy world across 4 light years?...
Is there any weapon in SW than can wipe entire civilisations from ever existing?
I'll counter that with Centerpoint Station.
How is that a counter?
Janus101
Pretty much sums up your basic reading skills and comprehension skills.
The gateway would not be able to transport a large enough fleet to actually do damage.
How many times do I need to repeat myself...All they'd need to do is push a multikinetic neutronic mine through.
While I remember I'll put this next point in now.
You state that SW has more industrial might than ST...Which brings us back to the Dyson's sphere...Do you have any comprehension as to how much industrial might a species would need to be able to build a structure than could completely surround a sun in a sphere as wide as earth's orbit is around our sun?...Think about it...The death star is the size of a small moon and is one of the biggest structures in the SW galaxy...A small moon compared with completely surrounding a star....You're talking a structure with a diameter of nearly 200 million miles....Compare that to the death star which is 160km in diameter.
So...Who has the biggest industrial capacity?
3. What if Star Wars uses Centerpoint Station to keep on moving Coruscant out of the way in order to protect it from this time ship?
Doesn't moving the planets kill all the life on them? Or am I mistaken with that?
Regardless...It would simply go an erase the station....
4. Who's to say that the time ship can penetrate a planetary shield? Although the time ship itself is supposedly outside of space and time (which doesn't make sense since it still has to travel through space), the weapon that it fires affects space and time, implying that it is part of space and time. Therefore, there is no definitive proof that it could simply phase through a shield.
Once it hit the shield, the shield at that point would be erased from time...It doesn't matter if it's matter or energy...It gets erased.
5. Didn't the time ship erase itself from existense so that it never existed at all?
Yes...But if this is where you say that once a weapon is destroyed then it can't be used then I better remind you that the death star, death star 2, centerpoint station, sun crusher, star forge and just about everything else in SW were also destroyed.
So don't even go there with that argument.
6. What about the Celestials? The Celestial race's planet of origin is not Coruscant (well, it hasn't been shown or implied to be Coruscant). In fact, their planet of origin is unknown, meaning that the time ship would not be able to wipe them out. It is implied that the Celestials have the knowledge of the past, present and future, and even if that isn't the case, they're still very, very powerful and advanced.
Could you explain the Celestials and their powers and origin a bit more...I don't know much about them but the name Celestials makes them sound like they border on God like being rather than a typical biological race.
I'm getting horrifically bored of this debate...2 words (although one of them's a letter)
Q
Douwd.
The end.
Originally posted by jaden101
If you plant something with as much mass as a star ship with enough speed it'll cause collosal damage. It's also not so much of a tactic asa last ditch attempt to destroy your enemy once your weapons are depleted or damaged beyond repair.
And yet they often worked somehow.
So which stats are right?...They can't both be because they're completely different. Which is the problem with star wars...Massive inconsistency. Which means the only thing you can really rely on is what you see on screen (as opposed to in additional books etc)
*sigh*
The 2.4 million megaton figure was for the heavy turbolasers of an Acclamator star destroyer from Star Wars.
The 1160 megaton figure was based on your claim about Star Trek proton torpedos being 20 times the tsar bomb.
Therefore, Star Wars star destroyers have far superior firepower to their Star Trek counterparts. Also, Star Wars star destroyers have LOTS of turbolasers, and each has a firing rate of about 1 every 1 or 2 seconds, and enough ammo to last for over a week of fighting.
The power difference is HUGE. Star Wars: 2.4 million megatons. Star Trek: 1160 megatons. Star Wars has a HUGE advantage by several orders of magnitude. Star Wars also has MORE turbolasers than Star Trek has proton torpedos, a greater rate of fire and more ammo.
If the millenium falcon can hit tie fighters with sit on swivelling gun turrets that are basically a laser version of those seen on WW2 bombers then it goes without saying that tech as advanced as species 8472 bio ships would easily be able to.
Those tie fighter pilots were foolishly flying right in front of the Millennium Falcon's laser cannons and hovering there while firing from a few hundred meters away. Better starfighter pilots such as Luke Skywalker or Wedge Antilles would not make such a mistake.
So you bring up the whole withstanding the pressures of a black hole argument...Then I see and raise your argument by a massive degree with the oldest star trek enterprise ship and now you're saying it's a pointless argument anyway...Way to go Sherlock.
On the contrary, you're the one that brought up the black hole argument.
So it's an impossibility to simply change the yield of a weapon is it?
No.
Why would the borg change the yield of a weapon to drain a 100 gigawatt shield by 50% when they can drain all 100% if they want to? For the fun of it?
A typo...Shoot me...It gets a bit draining trying to hammer basic maths through a head as thick as yours.
You outright lied (or simply didn't read my posts and follow the chronological order of the thread well enough) saying that I brought up the black hole argument.
Star Wars star destroyers have FAR superior firepower, and, by extension (since Star Wars shields can withstand such firepower for quite a while whereas Star Trek shields get damaged by volleys of weapons hundreds or thousands of times weaker) their shields are far stronger as well.
You're entirely missing the point...You say that SW has mapped the entire galaxy and has millions of world...I'm saying that Borg space alone has millions of world and the Borg only occupy a 10th of their galaxy...Quite obviously equating to the fact that there will be 10 times more planets in ST than there is in SW.
Yet how many of those planets are inhabited? A very small percentage. How many had populations in the billions like numerous Star Wars planets do? A small percentage. How many have a large industrial (and economic, although you seem to discredit the relevence of this) base? A small percentage. A many would easily get taken over by a Star Wars attack fleet? A very large percentage.
They can change technology (and biology) at the molecular level and assimilate it. Happy now?
Star Wars has nanotechnology as well. You still haven't explained how Star Trek's nanotechnology counters Star Wars's buzz droids.
Clearly not given that, as an example, the lasers on a Naboo star fighter only knock droids about 40 feet across a room (As seen by Anakin when he accidentally pilots one in Phantom Menace)
How far do you expect the lasers to knock them? Besides, those Naboo starfighters weren't the most powerful in Star Wars.
And if a Borg cube can come out of fighting the entire federation fleet completely without damage then how much damage is a star fighter (or a fleet of them) going to do?...None...
A squadron of Jedi in Stealth X's FTW
The former is total and the later is per second....Get over it.
That's not what a watt works like. Watt is "power", a conversion of energy over time, not a "total"; that is energy. A watt is a watt, there is no unit of "watt per second" or "watt per hour"; that is a misconception.
200 trillion gigawatts for Star Wars vs 15 billion gigawatts for Star Trek. Star Wars wins.
What are you on about "get mobbed"...Can SW civilians all of a sudden just march off a planet's surface and into space?
Actually, many civilians in Star Wars have access to civilian space vessels, many of which are more powerful than Star Trek military starships.
So why would the 500 ships of the Katana fleet change the balance of power in the galaxy?...Why would Han say that it would take over a 1000 star destroyers with more fire power than is possible to destroy Alderaan? (clearly indicative the empire, at it's strongest, doesn't have 1000 star destroyers?)
Source?
So i'm lying that a dedicated search team couldn't find Luke et all hiding on the ship?...I'm lying that R2 and C3P0 were basically able to wander around the death star unnoticed?
You do realise that the original trilogy trumps whatever your source is...The films are top tier canon and are taken above all other canon.
I already explained this by showing a source saying that the Death Star had crap internal security by Star Wars standards. You claimed that this contradicted the movies, but it actually agrees with the movies.
Might want to check the 1st paragraph and the Jedi StealthX on wookipedia.
As I've already stated...The shadow bombs are just a proton torpedo guided by the force.
And my point is that the entire reason why they are designed that way is so that sensors cannot detect them, since the Stealth X itself isn't emitting energy to launch the shadow bombs; the Jedi is using the Force. Therefore, they would be virtually untrackable.
Well there's hundreds of them seen on screen in voyager and they continued to pour through the rifts from their own universe.
This is not a definitive figure that is anywhere near Star Wars numbers.
Can a few star fighters obliterate a planet in seconds?...No...But a few equally sized species 8472 can...Clearly superior firepower.
The sun crusher is about the size of a starfighter.
Is there any weapon in SW with the destructive power of the Borg multi kinetic neutronic mine than can destroy world across 4 light years?...
No, but I've already explained how such a weapon would not do much more than a solar system busting weapon in this case.
Is there any weapon in SW than can wipe entire civilisations from ever existing?
I've debunked this. The time ship erased itself from history in that it never existed at all.
Originally posted by -Pr-
you can't change the conditions of a thread 25 pages in.
In that specific part of the thread we were referring to ground combat. You and I had a miniature debate. When you failed to explain your position of Star Trek phasers somehow harming Star Wars AT-ATs, you suddenly change the parameters.