Commander E-178
Restricted
I have yet to read the entire thread but there are somethings I must go over now:
Originally posted by jaden101
Hmm..."stardestroyer.net"...I wonder if there's any bias in there at all?
Hmm… I wonder if you could actually refute what it says rather than dodging it by talking about how it much be biased. Every site of this type is going to have some bias, everyone has some bias; such as yourself.
Originally posted by jaden101
Not to mention with this 1st few sentences they limit it to "empire vs federation"...Given thaat the empire run their entire galaxy compared with the federations's non war making tiny fraction of their galaxy it's a bit pointless.If you want to include ST's more aggressive species...the Borg and the Dominion/Jem Hadar then it's far more balanced.
Hardly balances it out given the vastly superior firepower and FTL speeds of Star Wars (I will go into more detail in later posts).
We take it from there. The Borg have far greater numbers....Stated as "billions of vessels containing trillions of drones" which is just the central nexus and doesn't include borg vessels outwith that small area. So potentiall hundreds of trillions of drones and hundreds of billions of ships.
And here is the real quote from “Unity“:
CHAKOTAY: Even if we do somehow negotiate an exchange, how long will they keep up their end of the bargain? It could take months to cross Borg territory. We'd be facing thousands of systems, millions of vessels.
JANEWAY: But only one Collective, and we've got them over a barrel. We don't need to give them a single bit of information, not until we're safe. We just need the courage to see this through to the end.
CHAKOTAY: There are other kinds of courage. Like the courage to accept that there are some situations beyond your control. Not every problem has an immediate solution.
JANEWAY: You're suggesting we turn around.
Now provide episode name and full quote for your claim to prove this one wrong.
Compare that with what's known about SW. Han says that it would take a thousand stardestroyers to cause the same damage that the death star caused. Implying that the empire doesn't have a thousand star destroyers. Take the events after epVI whereby in the Thrawn trilogy, just 500 old republic cruisers of the Katana fleet would swing the balance of power in the galaxy.
Who was clearly using Hyperbole. Or should we also take his claim that the Empire couldn’t mass scatter Alderaan as true? Also Specter of the Past (or Vision of the future forget which one) have now (Grand) Admiral Pellaon (sp?) remembering how the Empire at its height had 25,000 Imperial Star Destroyers. That is not counting the millions of smaller support vessels. The fact you think we should take Han at face value falls apart when we look at this logically:
1. Tarkin states the Empire has a million star systems. How can the Empire have maintained control, protected shipping from pirates and rebels etc.etc.etc. with less than a thousand ships?
2. The very existence of the Death Star blows the idea out of the water. If they have the industrial capacity to build two moon size battle stations in secret (20 years for the first Death Star and 4 years to 6 months to complete sixty percent of the Death Star 2) without it being found out they have the industrial capacity to build a fleet of millions. There is also the starship traffic above Coruscant and that is just the civilian vessels which by your claims would vastly outnumber the military.
3. And example of why we should not always take dialogue at face value: : / / w w w . y o u t u b e . c o m / w a t c h ?v = 3 J U 6 r G A Q 6 x A
54 Isotons (whatever the hell an Isoton is) is enough to destroy a small planet? And yet:
VOY's Living Witness where we get this dialogue on one of Voyagers photon torpedos:
QUARREN: The ensuing conflict was brief but brutal. Two million Kyrians slaughtered within days. The warship Voyager continued on its way, leaving the Kyrian dynasty in ruins. The Vaskan leaders proceeded to occupy our lands, forcing my people into subservience. It took centuries for us to undo the damage that Captain Janeway had done, and the Kyrian struggle for equality is far from over. This simulation and this museum are a testament to that struggle. I hope you found your experience here worthwhile. If you'd like to learn more about Voyager and its role in the history of our planet I suggest you explore the rest of this exhibit. Thank you for your time. Please, feel free to test the simulators. I wouldn't touch that if I were you. One of the Voyager's torpedoes. Twenty five isoton yield. It could destroy an entire city within seconds. It's been inactive for centuries but you never know. I'm only teasing, but, please, be careful. If we damage any of these relics they can never be replaced. The history of our people should be respected.
So should we take something that is said in the heat of a moment and therefore highly prone to hyperbole or take the one that doesn’t have a reason to be exaggerated and falls in line with standard Trek firepower?
Han said the Empire could not destroy an entire planet and was wrong: Check. Claimed that the Death Star could not have been artificial station built by the Empire: Check. Why should we trust him when he is wrong on two other accounts in that same scene?
Given that each Borg cube is large and more powerful than a standard stardestroyer...Then you have an empire that is outnumbered and outgunned by huge degrees.
Which you will now prove. Because until then no. The Star Wars Episode II Incredible Cross-Section book rates the Ventor class Star Destroyers peak power output at 3,6 × 1024 W or about 800 Teratons per second. Borg Cubes are at the best in the single digit Teraton range.
The Jem Hadar have similar numbers and are a far more aggressive race. Artificially bred solely for war. They have personal cloaking builit into their biology. They require no sleep, no rest, no food...They can fight continuously. They can also be artificially made to fighting level in 3 days.
And yet their vastly incompetent as seen in the Siege AR-558. They couldn’t remove the Feds who defenses after five or so months were less than a modern force could do today in several hours and the Jem Hadar simply charged at their position endlessly - why not use chemical warfare to take the Feds out? Or why don't any of them use the wide beam setting? The Empire is nowhere near the most competent sci fi ground force but their far above Star Trek. All it takes is taking out the drug they need and they die within the week.
ST has ablative armour technology which disapates energy based weapons rendering them useless. SW relies solely on energy based weapons.
No Limits Fallacy. Show the amount of firepower this armor can withstand.
In terms of weaponry, I showed, by canon sources, how a single photon torpedo is some 20+ times more powerful than the most powerful nuclear weapon ever detonated on earth...the "tsar bomba". SW vessels have nothing as powerful.
Could you please point me to these sources? Because until then: BS. See below.
Rise : Inability to vaporize an abnormal asteroid. Photon Torpedo yields calced from these, assumed to be roughly a couple hundred megatons, high end.
Pegasus : Requires the entire loadout of a Federation Galaxy class ship (nearly 300) to destroy a 10 kilometer hollow asteroid per Riker.
First Contact : Inability for the Borg Sphere to destroy the Phoenix. Borg weapons are notably superior to their UFP counterparts, and if they had anything approaching Gigaton level weapons, then even if that sphere had less than one thousandth the offensive firepower of its main ship, the Phoenix and everyone around it should have still be a large smoldering expanse of radioactive waste with no more than several volleys from the micro-torpedoes fired.
The Dauphin : Riker states that a Terrawatt source is more power than the Enterprise D is capable of producing (However, we do later see evidence of this being not entirely correct. And is yet another reason why in most cases visuals should overrule dialogue).
Who Watches The Watchers : A phaser bank can be run byu a 4.2 Gigawatt reactor.
BOBW : LaForge states that the combined output of all the Enterprise's onboard weaponry is not as great as that of its warp core. Given that because of dangers presented by natural phenomena to the Enterprise (asteroid fields, smashing into dirt, etc, etc) that it can't be anywhere near the ability to take TT level weaponry to the chin and laugh it off (as would be required to not be getting anally violated by the Klingons and the Cardies).
Genesis : New and Improved Photon Torpedoes (tm) used by Worf prove to be barely capable of shattering asteroids not much bigger than themselves. This would indicate that they are incapable of breaking the megaton range (but I'm not an ass, and won't use that). Quote for this below:
Originally Posted by Worf
Our next test will involve the new photon torpedoes. The explosive yield has been increased by [B]eleven percent ... and I have enhanced the targeting systems for increased accuracy.
Insurrection : Two Son'A ships, who together can outfight the Enterprise-E, and take quantum torps without flinching, are destroyed by the chemical incendiary explosion that results from the detonation of 'Metrion Gas.' Chemical reactions of that nature are, compared to nuclear fission/fusion and M/AM reactions, absolutely pathetic. This would again indicate shielding and hull defenses that do not exceed the triple digit kiloton range.
Cont. next post.