Star Wars vs Star Trek, Lord of the Rings and Battlestar Galactica

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Yes, I am a fan of Star Wars and Star Trek seems to be pretty good as well, but why haven't you responded to my rebuttals to your argument yet? I'm not trying to pressure you, but what is it with a lot of people posting in this thread several times that they think that one side would win while occasionally responding to an argument, yet, despite posting in this forum at a somewhat frequent rate, don't respond to rebuttals to their arguments?

Although Star Trek is a good series, it isn't on the same advancement in universe wise in terms of technology as Star Wars, which is fine since the former is supposed to take place mostly a few hundred years from now. The latter, while "a long time ago in the Galaxy far far away", involves civilizations that had been space traveling for hundreds of thousands of years. I think that you Star Trek supporters don't understand that. Star Wars is far ahead of Star Trek technologically speaking in most categories. It's like comparing the modern day USA to the British Empire circa the 18th century.

Well, actually, a better analogy might be comparing modern day World with some enhancements to the FF12 cvilizations (not including gods and such). Although the FF12 civilizations have some advantages, the modern day World would still win in a war (if the two sides are within striking capabilities) quite easily. [/B]

I mainly don't reply straight away because this thread is moving to fast to keep up with absolutely everything. Also the fact that a lot of arguments of mine have been overlooked...

But fine, I'll play it your way...

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Yet one member almost died in that transpoter transwarp feat.

The debris was from a blown up ship. The debris hit the Enterprise whose shields were up. And yet it damaged the Enterprise.

Thanks for proving my point. Those figures are FAR lower than Star Wars Acclamator's figures, even though an Acclamator is outdated in Star Wars terms by LOTF and the Galaxy class is in Star Trek very modern and up to date.

Except in this case the "plot device" is valid because it happens consistently, not simply once, and not due to sheer luck.

But like I've said, if you want a true representation of what the Borg are meant to be watch Wolf 359 and First Contact.

Coruscant would have to be small enough for humans to safely live on it though. My point is that Star Wars is far more developed and ahead of Star Trek.

Not canon according to official Star Trek sources.

On the other hand, Star Wars EU is canon according to official Star Wars sources.

Yet it happened and wasn't some freak exception.

My point is that you can't claim that every species 8472 ship is a planet buster because of one ship.

I claimed that Undine ships were so powerful because the dimension which they come from is unlike anything anyone within the Milky Way Galaxy has ever faced.

So by that logic, how would the borg know where they're going without these transwarp hubs?

Name one "far fetched" ship that I've mentioned. You do realize that an Acclamator is outdated by LOTF in Star Wars, right?

Source?

Star Wars doesn't used phased energy weapons (and they do have projectile weapons, although they don't use them that much), so thanks for proving my point.

Thanks for proving my point then.

"interstellar debris" - was the remains of a starship (and far less mass than that asteroid), and it damaged the Enterprise.

That asteroid was a giant asteroid and hit what structurally would be the weakest part of the star destroyer (IDK why they put the command bridge there) whose shields were probably down.

Problem is, unless a strictly canonical source is cited to back up that a SD's shields were down in any circumstance then it's only speculation.

Originally posted by CadoAngelus

First time it had been done - within that reality (i.e. it had been achieved in the Prime Reality) - and it seems that they were in a hurry.

"within that reality" - that's not what matters though. The future Spock was not doing it for the first time.

I've kinda lost track of what ship it was...was it the bird-of prey from Generations or have i just completely forgotten what this part's about?

In a battle against the dominion the Enterprise was badly damaged by the debris of another ship.

A turbolaser would be FAR more powerful than the flying debris.

Seriously. A star destroyer could take on 100 Enterprises and win. I'm not kidding. 2.4 million megaton weapons at thousands of miles and almost 100 starfighters vs 1160 megaton weapons at 5 miles? ROFL.

If i'm honest, i'm not 100% sure that your source is unbiased.

Which, no offense, is an argument out of desperation on your part given that I was referring to the site's numerical figures; even if the site is biased, the numbers are from canon sources; I don't see how the site can be "biased" with its canon numbers.

The TNG series was more lax on the fate of the Federation because it was living up to TOS, but at the same time trying to create a sense of darkness about the Galaxy in the future from TOS. But in order to prove that the Federation had evolved over the course of 200years they made it seem that a Galaxy class vessel could fend of a single borg cube - albeit that the cube was likely a scout vessel, and albeit that Voyager and Deep Space 9 also encountered the Borg.

They made it that way, and in this case it is that way. I don't understand why you don't think it's valid.

But like I've said, if you want a true representation of what the Borg are meant to be watch Wolf 359 and First Contact.

Why is it a "true" representation? Because it supports your side?

Tatooine was capable of sustaining humanoid life and yet it's deemed a dead planet. The conditions to which the human race of SW seem to be able to adapt to is broad. In favour of what you've said: yes, a planet would need to be in the perfect location to sustain human - and humanoid - life. In favour of SW: humans are adaptable and the size and location of the planet in relation to real life is largely irrelevant. Corusant is undoubtedly a considerably bigger planet then Earth.

Tatooine still has oxygen and water (albeit the latter in small quantities) and supplies could be brought from off world. However, Coruscant couldn't be too big in that humans live there, and they would have to be able to live safely on the surface without getting crushed by gravity.

Is this one book non-canon or are we all agreed that EU is regarded as non-canon?

Star Wars EU: Canon (according to official Star Wars sources)
Star Trek EU: non canon (according to official Star Trek sources)

Not all SW EU is considered canon. In fact quite a large chunk of SW EU is considered non-canon. Examples: Luke vs. Darth Maul Hologram, the Third Battle of Yavin 4, the Star Wars Holiday Special (sorry to bring it up), the Infinities series, Dark Side ending to Jedi Knight: Dark Force II etc etc

Yeah, because most of those are "what if" stories.

Like I said, but I'll elaborate. The idea of all Star Trek spin-offs is to make the Federation seem superior to whoever or whatever they're fighting. Whether it be Cardassian, Klingon, Dominion or Borg...

Yet they make it that way, and consistently. Whether or not its simply to keep things balanced is not a reason to discount it; otherwise I could say that Jedi aren't invincible because that would make them too powerful, and by your logic that we should discount their mortality as a plot device.

I didn't claim that. In fact I think you were the one that claimed that because Undine ships are so powerful that you would consider all SW ships to be equally as powerful as the Sun Crusher...

I was using Jaden101's logic against him to show how its wrong.

I claimed that Undine ships were so powerful because the dimension which they come from is unlike anything anyone within the Milky Way Galaxy has ever faced.

And where is the evidence for this? And you do realize that Star Wars is "a long time ago in a galaxy far far away"?

If I'm honest, I'm not sure of the use of the Borg Transwarp hubs...but here's a source that might: Borg Transwarp Hub

Well, it clearly has some important function.

It's hard to keep a track of the thread like I said...furthermore it's bloody hard to a track of everything in SW and keep your sanity so I honestly can't elaborate. I stand by that Kevin Uxbridge is still a viable source considering he's not omnipotent.

You made the claim that I used a "far-fetched" ship and then admit that you don't have an example where I did?

TNG Episode - Where No Man Has Gone Before
End of the Universe

That was caused by a mistake.

A blaster is something a Borg could adapt too. Energy weapons are adaptable. If Luke Skywalker walked around with a Revolver he might have a chance, otherwise it's reasonable to think that SW would have a seriously hard time waging war on the Borg.

1. You said "phased" energy weapons.
2. Star Wars does indeed have firearms; they call them "slugthrowers". Although not used as much as blasters, they do have access to them.

Hang on...what? How did that prove your point? What I was hinting at was that whereas - for example - the Rebellion War took place over 25 years, the Dominion War took place over 3. Millions in ST compared to trillions - as you cited - by SW is hardly that much difference, if the Dominion War were to go on 25 years it might have similar figures.

The YV war (which is the war I was referring to with the hundreds of trillion casualty figure) lasted 4 years, only one more year than this dominion war, and yet it caused over 200 trillion more casualties.

The purpose of the Deflectors is to repel space debris, not large chunks of metal. A faux pas on SW's behalf if it takes a single fighter to fly through their "wind shield" and completely disable a massive star destroyer.

That was AFTER their shields went down when and an A wing flew into it.

Probably? So speculation. What is also probable is that they were suicidal and turned the shields off to end their twisted existence.

Problem is, unless a strictly canonical source is cited to back up that a SD's shields were down in any circumstance then it's only speculation.

Yet its shields being up and that happening would not make sense since it contradicts numerous other canon sources.

Industrial capabilities: Star Wars involves civilizations that have been space traveling for tens of thousands of years. Millions of developed planets, 100 quadrillion civilians, galaxy spanning trade corporations.

Numbers: Star Wars has 100 quadrillion civilians. Even if only 1 in 100 were fit for duty, that's 1 quadrillion soldiers right there. In comparison, the dominion in their height had about 30,000 ships including fighters. The Empire had 25,000 star destroyers and over 70 starfighters per star destroyer, meaning over 100,000 total ships. Then add in frigates, transport ships and such and you'd get a number over 200,000. Combined with the other major Star Wars civilizations you'd get a number in the millions.

Strategic and Tactical prowess: Revan, Thrawn, Ackbar, Stazi, etc.

Space combat: A dominion ship's weapons did less damage to the Enterprise than flying debris did. A star destroyer was capable of easily vaporizing an asteroid in one hit. Star destroyers also fought at thousands of miles, whereas starships fought at under 10 kilometers, less range than many Star Wars HANDHELD weapons 😉 Also, there's the reactor core power diffference: 200 trillion gigawatts vs 15 billion gigawatts, and the weapon force difference; 2.4 million megatons vs 1160 megatons.

A well prepared Pellaeon class star destroyer with enough ammo and supplies could solo the entire Federation fleet in a battle. I'm not kidding.

Land combat: AT-ATs, advanced armor and weapons, Jedi, actually having combined arms tactics.

Originally posted by BruceSkywalker
i can use my own plastic lightsabers against them 😄

The kind with the candy in the handle?

Is Hew still going on about his 200 trillion gigawatts crap?

Originally posted by The Nuul
Is Hew still going on about his 200 trillion gigawatts crap?

It's not "crap" since you still haven't even attempted to prove how it's wrong.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Really? You ignore my entire argument and simply say "You lost: The End"?

Desperation on your part.

I've countered all of your point numerous times. You just repeated yourself like some retarded parrot. I can't be held responsible for your lack of understanding or my points. I've dumbed them down so even a child could understand but you, apparently, still don't.

Oh...And do me a favour. Stop trolling me in a thread I'm not even debating in or you'll be getting reported.

Are you talking about the full quote that Han said in ANH?

Yes.

Are you talking about the full quote that Han said in ANH?

So it's going to be in the middle of a massive battle with its shields down?

No, you've merely done a relatively good job of proving the Star Trek figures to be sketchy, but not the Star Wars figures.

Yet i've proven that one set of your quoted SW figures and completely different for your other set of SW figures for the same weapons. So...What's actually sketchy?

The borg are unfamiliar with Force powers.

O RLY?

Not simply the Federation; even the borg are only about 1/10th of the Galaxy. Star Wars clearly has more developed planets.

You said SW has millions of world...I proved that just the Borg have millions of worlds and the Borg only have developed planets and only take up 1/10 of the galaxy. Thus there is another 9/10 of the galaxy of planets which are over and above the number of SW planets.

The same point could be applied in reverse.

How could that point be applied to the Borg or the Dominion who's sole purposes are assimilation of other worlds and war respectively?

Please elaborate.

Not repeating myself again.

Yes, I understand that, but you're still dodging the point.

How am I dodging the point. You asked if all the Borg planets were advanced...Of course they are. They were advanced BEFORE the Borg even assimilated them because if they weren't they wouldn't have assimilated them in the 1st place.

Star Wars: 200 trilion gigawatts Star Trek: 15 billion
gigawatts Yes, I've stated this multiple times

Believe me. I'm well aware you've repeated it like a gibbering troll. Unfortunately for you I only had to counter it once. I've done it. It's fact. Either change your argument or move on.

Ad hominem

Doo dooo doodoo doooo...*muppets tune*

And yet you still haven't shown that all of the species 8472 ships are that powerful, which they aren't.

They aren't? Show me which species 8472 ships were different to the ones i've mentioned then. This will be interesting.

Yet the same logic could be used against you.

Well you see it can't really because i've shown the power of species 8472 is equal because they only have 2 types of ships. On the other hand you'd have to prove that all SW ships were exactly the same as the sun crusher. Which obviously they aren't.

On the contrary, Q would often claim that he was omnipotent.

Quotes from episodes?

In the Battle of Endor star destroyers were fighting in the range of thousands of kilometers.

I've actually proven you wrong with on screen evidence from the films and i've also given you examples of Borg weapons being fired at warp 9 and travelling for several seconds meaning that they canonically can travel hundreds of millions of miles.

So it doesn't matter what you state and keep repeating. I've proven you wrong. Without a shadow of a doubt.

Then why don't they always use that in a battle?

Because they don't need to travel at warp in every battle.

Earth was still around.

How is that losing? The Borg were still around and took a loss of 1(of 4)transwarp hubs and a few vessels and the Borg queen (who had been killed before and came back anyway). Hardly lost is it?

And couldn't adapt to it.

Are you actually that stupid?...I've explained to you how they adapt. The Borg lost a drone to a phaser...The next drone that was sent was immune to phasers. So...What do think would have happened if Picard tried to use the Tommy gun trick a second time?

That isn't the point. I wasn't talking about assimilating the species, I was talking about them not being able to adapt to their weapons.

You do realise that the species and their tech are biologically the same don't you. That's why they're called "bio ships". They are made from the same DNA as the species.

So not having knowledge on one ship in Star Trek is a lack of knowledge to you? WTF?

You've shown your ignorance of almost everything i've brought up. Even absolute basics of ST knowledge and you simply didn't know about.

You don't have knowledge on every ship in Star Wars.

I've never claimed to. What's odd is that I apparently have more knowledge not just about ST than you do but SW as well.

Star Wars wins, and whether or not that ship had a crew or not doesn't change this.

So the old and weakest enterprise takes a direct hit from a planet destroying weapon with the same power as the death star and survives and a Mon Calamari cruiser takes a direct hit from the death star and is completely obliterated yet you're saying SW wins.

Odd...Very odd. The on screen evidence proves.

Hundreds of trillions vs 4 billion Thanks for proving my point.

And how long did the Vong war last?

"There isn't information about every planet in the galaxy" - which further proves my point.

The only thing it further proves is your ignorance seeing as you claimed there was info on every planet when I've proven there isn't.

Actually, the borg did damage species 8472 by a bit. Star Wars could easily do that as well in this case as well, yet far more damage.

Proof?

And yet few, if any are as powerful.

Proven that wrong many times as well.

Industrial capabilities: Star Wars involves civilizations that have been space traveling for tens of thousands of years. Millions of developed planets, 100 quadrillion civilians, galaxy spanning trade corporations.

The Dyson's sphere. 1 single piece of tech from 1 single species that completely dwarfs the entire Empire's industrial might.

Numbers: Star Wars has 100 quadrillion civilians. Even if only 1 in 100 were fit for duty, that's 1 quadrillion soldiers right there. In comparison, the dominion in their height had about 30,000 ships including fighters. The Empire had 25,000 star destroyers and over 70 starfighters per star destroyer, meaning over 100,000 total ships. Then add in frigates, transport ships and such and you'd get a number over 200,000. Combined with the other major Star Wars civilizations you'd get a number in the millions.

And one ST species has millions of ships.

Strategic and Tactical prowess: Revan, Thrawn, Ackbar, Stazi, etc.

The Borg collective's mind working as 1 completely wipes the floor with them.

Seriously. A star destroyer could take on 100 Enterprises and win. I'm not kidding. 2.4 million megaton weapons at thousands of miles and almost 100 starfighters vs 1160 megaton weapons at 5 miles? ROFL.

Quite clearly proves you wrong doesn't it.

And that's the old enterprise.

Continuing to perpetuate lies isn't going to win you this debate. So once again. You've lost and lost badly.

Now shuffle off back to the SW forums and continue to troll me you sad little cretin.

Originally posted by jaden101

Yet i've proven that one set of your quoted SW figures and completely different for your other set of SW figures for the same weapons. So...What's actually sketchy?

Are you really this dense?

I've explained numerous times (as in probably over 5 times in a row) that my original figures were for the light turbolasers and the 2.4 million megaton figure was for the heavy turbolasers.

So stop dodging the point. 2.4 million megatons vs 1160 megatons. Where is your counter for that?

Where is your counter for the 200 trillion gigawatt vs 15 billion gigawatt argument other than some made up nonsense about "watts total" and "watts per second" (showing that you don't see to understand basic science)?

Originally posted by jaden101

There's a reason why Kirk walked with that 'oh yeah, I'm so ****ing awesome' swagger.

Originally posted by jaden101
Yes.

Originally posted by Robtard
There's a reason why Kirk walked with that 'oh yeah, I'm so ****ing awesome' swagger.

Explain this then:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrancN6_yYA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrancN6_yYA

The above video shows that Star Trek ships have a range lower than that of many Star Wars hand held weapons. This "warp strafing" that Jaden101 brags about is invalid since he doesn't understand the difference between effective range and maximum range.

My 2.4 million megaton vs 1160 megaton figure still stands. As I've explained, the 2.4 million megaton figure is from a canon source, and Jaden101's blabbing about it contradicting other sources is because he mixed up light turbolasers and heavy turbolasers.

My flying debris statement still stands. The asteroid argument doesn't counter it since an asteroid that size is FAR more deadly than a small amount of flying debris.

Star Wars is technologically superior to Star Trek by thousands of orders of magnitude. Numerically its superior by thousands of orders of magnitude. Admit it.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The canon figure's actually 25,000 ISDs.

Considering Star Wars: IV was the first film, we're to either assume that the 25k figure was retconned after the fact, or that Han Solo is a boob who didn't know shit he was talking about.

Poor Solo, he's still lovable though.

Originally posted by Robtard
The kind with the candy in the handle?

oh no, those are too crappy looking...

the ones that they constantly show on tv 😄

Originally posted by Robtard
Considering Star Wars: IV was the first film, we're to either assume that the 25k figure was retconned after the fact, or that Han Solo is a boob who didn't know shit he was talking about.

Poor Solo, he's still lovable though.

Also, how would Star Trek even know where the Star Wars planets are? The Federation had been around for hundreds of years and still hadn't even completely mapped out the Alpha quadrant.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The boob part is correct. In-story character thoughts are secondary to omniscient authors of chronologies or encyclopedias.

He's still ****ing lovable, you're not taking that away!

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrancN6_yYA

The above video shows that Star Trek ships have a range lower than that of many Star Wars [b]hand held weapons. This "warp strafing" that Jaden101 brags about is invalid since he doesn't understand the difference between effective range and maximum range.

My 2.4 million megaton vs 1160 megaton figure still stands. As I've explained, the 2.4 million megaton figure is from a canon source, and Jaden101's blabbing about it contradicting other sources is because he mixed up light turbolasers and heavy turbolasers.

My flying debris statement still stands. The asteroid argument doesn't counter it since an asteroid that size is FAR more deadly than a small amount of flying debris.

Star Wars is technologically superior to Star Trek by thousands of orders of magnitude. Numerically its superior by thousands of orders of magnitude. Admit it. [/B]

where in that video does it state that they're at their maximum range?

Originally posted by -Pr-
where in that video does it state that they're at their maximum range?

I didn't claim that. I am claiming that they were at their effective range, and note that they had to get in that close even though they had a huge target (a borg cube), showing their inaccuracy compared to Star Wars.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
I didn't claim that. I am claiming that they were at their effective range, and note that they had to get in that close even though they had a huge target (a borg cube), showing their inaccuracy compared to Star Wars.

eh, no. that's not true at all. they got that close because it's easier to dodge borg weapons the closer they get.

your "argument" is invalidated by this:

YouTube video

this:

YouTube video

this:

YouTube video

look at what Kira says to Sisko when he says to wait until they get to 500m. It's an unusually small distance for Star Trek.

then there's this (fast forward to 3:15):

YouTube video

then there's the fact that Star Trek ships usually fight at relatively huge distances while at warp, their weapons travelling effectively over thousands of metres.

The effective range is star trek ships is well over a kilometre. Any statement to the contrary is actually trolling, considering the amount of evidence supporting the amount of large distances.