Originally posted by Naija boyi said that based on zoom's established character, it is perfectly logical to assume by that time in the story he was not fighting to his max. why? because we already know [based on previously established showings] that without an amp [hell, even with an amp], wally was absolutely no match for zoom.
I actually explained ur core fallacious claim in my previous post. but ill mention it once again, ur claim that Zoom was deliberately slowing down/not trying as hard as he was previously prior to the point in which this was actually indicated on panel.
fact: wally amped with the speed of bart AND jay <<< zoom.
fact: time around wally stopped via jesse's connection to speed force [ie. wally + jesse (albeit momentarily) = zoom.] once that connection/amp from jesse wore off, and time was no longer halted around wally, do you honestly believe he was still faster than he had previously been while amped with the speed of bart and jay?
let me put it in even simpler terms: do you believe wally with an almost diminished amp from jesse is > wally + bart + jay? if so, i would REALLY love to see your evidence supporting that.
---
that said: using zoom's established character + previously established showings + the final battle in general [zoom egging wally on and such] - there is NO reason to assume zoom was fighting anywhere near his max.
Originally posted by Galan007
i said that based on zoom's established character, it is perfectly logical to assume by that time in the story he was not fighting to his max. why? because we already know [based on previously established showings] that without an amp [hell, even with an amp], wally was absolutely no match for zoom.
I know what u said and it is fallacious reasoning as i will explain once again. Wally being absolutely no match for Zoom without an amp or at any point prior to the Jesse amp is not a basis to assume Zoom was fighting below max prior to when he actually started egging wally on. Details below.
fact: wally amped with the speed of bart AND jay <<< zoom.
fact: time around wally stopped via jesse's connection to speed force [ie. wally + jesse (albeit momentarily) = zoom.] once that connection/amp from jesse wore off, and time was no longer halted around wally, do you honestly believe he was still faster than he had previously been while amped with the speed of bart and jay?
The speed that Wally took from Jesse was being used up. Hence it was an ongoing process and Wallys speed was gradually reducing. However, we know for a fact that the WAlly + jesse is FAR FAR greater than Wally + Jay and Bart as while amped with Jay and Barts speed, Wally was able to barely perceive Zoom, but while being amped by Jesse he was =to Zoom. Hence even though Wally was slowing down,for much of the time he would still have been at a much greater speed than he was at while amped by Jay and Bart due to the huge difference in the quality of the amps.
let me put it in even simpler terms: do you believe wally with an almost diminished amp from jesse is > wally + bart + jay? if so, i would REALLY love to see your evidence supporting that
False. During the fight around the world, the amp was not almost diminshed prior to Wally mentioning it had begun diminishing. Infact the level to which Wallys amp had diminished during that period was never even mentioned at all so that is baseless and unsupported. What the comic clearly portrays is that Wally +Jesse is far above Wally + Jay and Bart and subseqeuntly even if Jesses amp had begun diminishing, Wally would still be considerably faster than at any point prior to him gaining the Jesse amp.
that said: using zoom's established character + previously established showings + the final battle in general [zoom egging wally on and such] - there is NO reason to assume zoom was fighting anywhere near his max.
Aside the fact that he had been continuously fighting to his max previously and nothing was mentioned or indicated on panel about him deliberately slowing down prior to when Wally headlocked him. U r engaging in the causal oversimplification fallacy in an attempt to rationalize what appeared on panel in order to favour ur argument and hence assuming a mandatory single cause which was NOT mentioned on panel, when there are far more apparent alternative causes.
Originally posted by Naija boy*sighs*
I know what u said and it is fallacious reasoning as i will explain once again. Wally being absolutely no match for Zoom without an amp or at any point prior to the Jesse amp is not a basis to assume Zoom was fighting below max prior to when he actually started egging wally on. Details below.Indeed. this is not relevant however because we know that WAlly amped with the speed of Jesse is apparently greater than Wally amped with the speed of both bart and Jay.
The speed that Wally took from Jesse was being used up. Hence it was an ongoing process and Wallys speed was gradually reducing. However, we know for a fact that the WAlly + jesse is FAR FAR greater than Wally + Jay and Bart as while amped with Jay and Barts speed, Wally was able to barely perceive Zoom, but while being amped by Jesse he was =to Zoom. Hence even though Wally was slowing down,for much of the time he would still have been at a much greater speed than he was at while amped by Jay and Bart due to the huge difference in the quality of the amps.
False. During the fight around the world, the amp was not almost diminshed prior to Wally mentioning it had begun diminishing. Infact the level to which Wallys amp had diminished during that period was never even mentioned at all so that is baseless and unsupported. What the comic clearly portrays is that Wally +Jesse is far above Wally + Jay and Bart and subseqeuntly even if Jesses amp had begun diminishing, Wally would still be considerably faster than at any point prior to him gaining the Jesse amp.
Aside the fact that he had been continuously fighting to his max previously and nothing was mentioned or indicated on panel about him deliberately slowing down prior to when Wally headlocked him. U r engaging in the causal oversimplification fallacy in an attempt to rationalize what appeared on panel in order to favour ur argument and hence assuming a mandatory single cause which was NOT mentioned on panel, when there are far more apparent alternative causes.
-wally-
"i can already feel the speed i stole from jesse being used up... i'm slowing down."
it was made quite clear that wally had to have a full amp from jesse to contend with zoom, because without that full amp time was not completely stopped, and wally was left all but helpless. so how in the heck can you maintain that wally could have still been on near-equal footing with zoom, despite him specifically stating that he was "slowing down" because jesse's amp was being "used up"? again: that notion is enormously contradicted by previously established showings.
for instance: it was established that the delorean had to reach 88mph to travel through time. what you're essentially trying to argue is that the delorean could had still traveled through time, moving at only 87mph... despite the story telling us otherwise. doesn't work that way.
additionally: for you to also believe that wally with a diminished amp from jesse alone is > wally + bart + jay, is completely unsupported, and therefore utterly baseless.
imo, the only logical assumption is that zoom was somewhat holding back by that point, because wally's final lesson was nearly at hand. that certainly fits the story as well as the characters involved MUCH better than your interpretation of said events.