Originally posted by Galan007
again: you really need to look at context.in the second scan, do you actually see zoom trying to fend off wally in any way? nope. by that time, zoom was not fighting back. he was actually egging wally on to kill him [doing so would have completed the 'lesson'.] so if your whole argument for surfer is based on that one instance, then you should try to come up with another game plan.
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fact: even when wally was amped with the powers of bart and jay, he could still barely perceive zoom as a blur.fact: when wally was amped to the point where time stopped around him, he was finally able to combat zoom. however, we know for a fact [based on previously established showings] that without an amp, wally was no match for zoom in any way [don't know why you're still trying to argue differently.
fact: we know zoom was not trying to actively combat wally after his [wally's] aforementioned final amp wore off.
You really need to stop selectively picking and choosing parts of my post to respond to all while continuously and blatantly ignoring the main point.
Further you are the one ignoring the context. In the scan that Wally mentions that his amp is wearing off, we see that Zoom is still actively fighting him. In the next scan Wally talks about going in to a dead sprint and and concentrating on linda etc. At this point he is still keeping pace with Zoom fairly well and it is prior to Zoom egging him on. He then headbutts Zoom, and gains the upper hand and it is at this point that Zoom begins to egg him on to kill him without defending or attempting to fight back. Hence Zoom stopped defending himself only some time after Wallys amp had begun wearing off NOT as soon as it began. Therefore Wally indeed did show to reasonably perceive/offensively engage Zoom after his amp had begun to wear off. Whats hilarious is that this is yet again a passing detail that is NOT at all the main point of my argument which ive repeated numerous times and which uve ignored on each occasion. Once again:
Wally was able to perceive and react to Zoom fairly well during their fight around the world in which time was moving. The speed and perceptions he attained at that point are < than those i showed from surfer.
fact: when wally was amped to the point where time stopped around him, he was finally able to combat zoom. however, we know for a fact [based on previously established showings] that without an amp, wally was no match for zoom in any way [don't know why you're still trying to argue differently.
I beg of you to stop the strawman argumentation. I never talked about Wally being a match for Zoom without an amp. My main point has always been in regards to Wallys perception of Zoom while time was moving the subsequent implications. I mentioned on a sidenote Wally perceiving/reacting to Zoom after the statement he made talking about his slowing down and hence while his amp was wearing off (which means he still had it but it was reducing) but never talked about him matching Zoom without any amp at all
Originally posted by Naija boyyou missed my entire point, it seems.
You really need to stop selectively picking and choosing parts of my post to respond to all while continuously and blatantly ignoring the main point.Further you are the one ignoring the context. In the scan that Wally mentions that his amp is wearing off, we see that Zoom is still actively fighting him. In the next scan Wally talks about going in to a dead sprint and and concentrating on linda etc. At this point he is still keeping pace with Zoom fairly well and it is prior to Zoom egging him on. He then headbutts Zoom, and gains the upper hand and it is at this point that Zoom begins to egg him on to kill him without defending or attempting to fight back. Hence Zoom stopped defending himself only some time after Wallys amp had begun wearing off NOT as soon as it began. Therefore Wally indeed did show to reasonably perceive/offensively engage Zoom after his amp had begun to wear off. Whats hilarious is that this is yet again a passing detail that is NOT at all the main point of my argument which ive repeated numerous times and which uve ignored on each occasion. Once again:
Wally was able to perceive and react to Zoom fairly well during their fight around the world in which time was moving. The speed and perceptions he attained at that point are < than those i showed from surfer.
a.) based on previously established showings, we know that without being mega-amped, wally was absolutely no match for zoom. fact.
b.) based on previously established showings in that particular arc, we know time was literally frozen around zoom. thus the only way for wally to match his speed/perceive him was by being freshly mega-amped, to the point where time was frozen around him as well. fact. [and i won't even mention the fact that zoom became much more adept with his temporal abilities after that arc - thereby becoming even faster.]
c.) conclusion: if we know wally had to be amped to the aforementioned level just to compete with zoom, how can you argue that once wally began slowing below said level, he would have still been able to hang with zoom in any way/shape/form? such a notion contradicts every single happening that had been previously established during that arc. imo, the only logical conclusion is that zoom was not 'trying' as hard as he formerly was, because he wanted to lose. he wanted wally to kill him/complete the 'training'.
in a nutshell: i believe your entire "if wally can track zoom, surfer can too + defend himself" argument is completely moot, based on what we know zoom was capable of beforehand [and what he's been capable of since.]
Originally posted by Galan007
you missed my entire point, it seems.
I didnt miss anything, rather u falsely attributed to me arguments i never even made.
based on previously established showings, we know that without being mega-amped, wally was absolutely no match for zoom. fact.
This is true but has no bearing on my argument.
b.) based on previously established showings in that particular arc, we know time was literally frozen around zoom. thus the only way for wally to match his speed/perceive him was by being freshly mega-amped, to the point where time was frozen around him as well. fact. [and i won't even mention the fact that zoom became much more adept with his temporal abilities after that arc - thereby becoming even faster.]
This is false. Indeed at the point where time froze around him, Wally was able to perceive Zoom but as was clearly shown on panel he was also able to do so as time began to move again
conclusion: if we know wally had to be amped to the aforementioned level just to compete with zoom, how can you argue that once wally began slowing below said level, he would have still been able to hang with zoom in any way/shape/form? such a notion contradicts every single happening that had been previously established during that arc. imo, the only logical conclusion is that zoom was not 'trying' as hard as he formerly was, because he wanted to lose. he wanted wally to kill him/complete the 'training'.
This conclusion is pretty baseless. We know that Wally had to be amped to the level in which time froze in order to become as fast as Zoom. However just because he is gradually slowing down to a speed below that which matches Zoom in no way means that he should consequently be unable to hang with/react/perceive Zoom in any way shape or form. Just because u are slightly faster than me at one point does not mean i wont be able to perceive you or engage u in combat. Even while being slower than Zoom at that point, as long as the speed gap between them had not returned to the level it was completely prior to the final mega-amp, then there is no basis on which to assume that Zoom was deliberately slowing down or "not trying as hard as he previously was" prior to the point that such was actually indicated on panel. i.e (when Zoom began egging him on, and this occured only after Wally had him in a headlock). That is causal oversimplification and is fallacious logic
in a nutshell: i believe your entire "if wally can track zoom, surfer can too + defend himself" argument is completely moot, based on what we know zoom was capable of beforehand [and what he's been capable of since
The premises on which u based this conclusion are fallacious. Nothing Zoom did beforehand invalidates what was clearly shown on panel. Ur making assumptions/rationalizations with nothing supporting them and are using them to infer information not portrayed on panel.
Originally posted by Naija boy*sighs* as far as i'm concerned, you have made no logical points where this part of the debate is concerned. despite that, you call my points "fallacious" and "unsupported"? srsly? every single one of my posts has been backed by on panel facts/feats. not one of my statements can be deemed 'illogical', because they've all been based on previously established showings. just because you are getting upset that your preconceived notions regarding the outcome of of a surfer/zoom match aren't going anywhere [with myself or others] doesn't mean you have to start acting as though i am pulling these factoids out of my arse.
I didnt miss anything, rather u falsely attributed to me arguments i never even made.This is true but has no bearing on my argument.
This is false. Indeed at the point where time froze around him, Wally was able to perceive Zoom but as was clearly shown on panel he was also able to do so as time began to move again
This conclusion is pretty baseless. We know that Wally had to be amped to the level in which time froze in order to become as fast as Zoom. However just because he is gradually slowing down to a speed below that which matches Zoom in no way means that he should consequently be unable to hang with/react/perceive Zoom in any way shape or form. Just because u are slightly faster than me at one point does not mean i wont be able to perceive you or engage u in combat. Even while being slower than Zoom at that point, as long as the speed gap between them had not returned to the level it was completely prior to the final mega-amp, then there is no basis on which to assume that Zoom was deliberately slowing down or "not trying as hard as he previously was" prior to the point that such was actually indicated on panel. i.e (when Zoom began egging him on, and this occured only after Wally had him in a headlock). That is causal oversimplification and is fallacious logic
The premises on which u based this conclusion are fallacious. Nothing Zoom did beforehand invalidates what was clearly shown on panel. Ur making assumptions/rationalizations with nothing supporting them and are using them to infer information not portrayed on panel.
that said, i will not be continuing my debate with you reagrding this subject. it has become entirely too circular.
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however: if you would still like to claim that any of my points pertaining to zoom were "fallacious" and/or "unsupported", i would be more than happy to *additionally* prove anything i mentioned throughout this thread.
🙂
*sighs* as far as i'm concerned, you have made no logical points where this part of the debate is concerned. despite that, you call my points "fallacious" and "unsupported"? srsly? every single one of my posts has been backed by on panel facts/feats. not one of my statements can be deemed 'illogical', because they've all been based on previously established showings. just because you are getting upset that your preconceived notions regarding the outcome of of a surfer/zoom match aren't going anywhere [with myself or others] doesn't mean you have to start acting as though i am pulling these factoids out of my arse.
lol,U completely failed to address and blatantly ignored the main point of my argument and augmented that by using strawman arguments and attributing false claims to me. Hence u didnt even come close to showing how any of my points werent "logical". Also unlike you instead of making blanket claims I actually explained how and why the points in ur previous posts were "fallacious" (causal oversimplification fallacy as well as strawman argumentation) and unsupported. U atempted to attribute a mandatory single cause to flash reasonably perceiving/reacting Zoom as time was moving when no such cause was mentioned on panel and when there were far more apparent alternative causes available. That is fallacious reasoning and beginning such arguments with the term "fact" does not change that in the slightest. Further its laughable that u think that projecting ur own emotions of anger on to me or attempts to gather support by referring to an imaginary group of "others" in any way advances ur argument. Actually addressing the points made rather than ignoring them would be much more effective. 🙂
however: if you would still like to claim that any of my points pertaining to zoom were "fallacious" and/or "unsupported", i would be more than happy to *additionally* prove anything i mentioned throughout this thread.
....Better late than never i guess. Would u like a list?lol
Originally posted by Naija boyi didn't ignore anything you said - quite the contrary, in fact. had you not been so blinded by your preconceived notions, you may have noted my reasoning for bringing up the instances i did [others saw it, i figured you would have too.]
Actually addressing the points made rather than ignoring them would be much more effective. 🙂...Better late than never i guess. Would u like a list?lol
i would certainly love to hear what my list of "unsupported claims" entails.
Originally posted by Galan007
i didn't ignore anything you said - quite the contrary, in fact. had you not been so blinded by your preconceived notions, you may have noted my reasoning for bringing up the instances i did [others saw it, i figured you would have too.
U certainly did and even began falsely attributing claims to me. I noted ur reasoning as well as pointed out the flaw in it. In ur recalcitrance however u refused to address these points that were made.
i would certainly love to hear what my list of "unsupported claims" entails.