Who can beat Zoom?

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
you realize zoom used the concept of time to explain their position in relative time and space the tick of a second.. 😇

by that argument alone facepalm ur statement on SS is mote. since all time is relative regardless of situation.
if zoom and wally are confined within a tick of a second how long would it be for him to count all the stars that surfer observed. how much time would pass outside of zoom's relative space in time?clapping

zoom clearly used the phrase: "we are locked between the ticks of a second" to describe the fact that time itself had stopped for them.

why else would wally say: "i'm standing still in time" [implying time had stopped]? why else would zoom say: "we are immortal" [implying time had no hold over them]?

[/context]

I admit although it does say clearly they are locked in time, locked between ticks of a second has been used in literature to sometimes denote moving slowly, so I could see some confusion there if one were to glance at it.

true. although there were a few other statements made which pretty much spell it out.

more proof can been seen when the speed wally stole from the others begins wearing off. meaning: once wally starts moving in time again [however minuscule] he begins loosing his grip on the battle.

Originally posted by Galan007
i find this to be quite a baseless statement.

here's a quote from your own scan: "light years traversed in mere seconds." as fast as that may be, the word "seconds" is still a measurement of time. thus we can say beyond reason that time was a factor for surfer in the instance you mentioned.

why is that important enough to bring up? because it was only when wally became amped to such a level that time literally stopped around him, that he was able to momentarily compete with zoom:
http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/3919/zoom1o.jpg
http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/4093/zoom2.jpg
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in a nutshell: while i will admit that surfer processing that much information is impressive, it was still a feat centered around the parameters of time [ie. a specified amount of time was given to depict how fast surfer was moving.] however, to compete with zoom - time must stop completely.

that is one of the many reasons i maintain that zoom is FAR superior to surfer, speed wise - and one of the many reasons i maintain surfer would not be able to react fast enough to counter a zoom-blitz.

When Wally and Zoom begin fighting all over the world, however, he mentions that his fight with Zoom had gone on for less than a second.
http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/8030/13qo5.jpg
Hence he uses "less than a second" as a frame of reference to indicate how long (length of time) their fight had been going on and why his fellow heroes couldnt help him. In other words time was actually moving at this point but they were moving so fast that no one else on the world could help flash.

Originally posted by Naija boy
When Wally and Zoom begin fighting all over the world, however, he mentions that his fight with Zoom had gone on for less than a second.
http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/8030/13qo5.jpg
Hence he uses "less than a second" as a frame of reference to indicate how long (length of time) their fight had been going on and why his fellow heroes couldnt help him. In other words time was actually moving at this point but they were moving so fast that no one else on the world could help flash.

Also, the second is used to describe their entire fight from the start to the point where Zoom says they are immortal and finally where he states it's been a second.

Originally posted by Naija boy
When Wally and Zoom begin fighting all over the world, however, he mentions that his fight with Zoom had gone on for less than a second.
http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/8030/13qo5.jpg
Hence he uses "less than a second" as a frame of reference to indicate how long (length of time) their fight had been going on and why his fellow heroes couldnt help him. In other words time was actually moving at this point but they were moving so fast that no one else on the world could help flash.

if you look at the second panel of the scan you posted, wally also says: "i can already feel the speed i stole from jesse being used up. i'm slowing down."

meaning: by that time in the battle, wally's amp was running out - he had began moving in time again. that's while you'll notice zoom beginning to regain the edge. compare that to when wally initially received the amp [ie. when time was completely frozen around he and zoom] and you'll find they were near equals.

What's more odd than anything is that Jessy, Bart and Jay's speed let Wally become fast enough to reach the speed max required to match Zoom. The speed of those three should not make the gap from not being able to see Zoom to being able to fight him evenly.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
What's more odd than anything is that Jessy, Bart and Jay's speed let Wally become fast enough to reach the speed max required to match Zoom. The speed of those three should not make the gap from not being able to see Zoom to being able to fight him evenly.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
They should have given him the power to tap even more into the speed force as Galan stated

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Sounds like a load to me. Wally should already have -far- greater control/connection with the speed force than they do. He gained speed from them, never once did I see it stated that it allowed him to tap into the speed force even more.

Also, Wally wasn't as fast as Zoom even then(imo). He was just able to see him.

Originally posted by Galan007
i figured you would mention this.

if you look at the second panel of the scan you posted, wally also says: "i can already feel the speed i stole from jesse being used up. i'm slowing down."

meaning: by that time in the battle, wally's amp was running out - he had began moving in time again. that's while you'll notice zoom beginning to regain the edge. compare that to when wally initially received the amp [ie. when time was completely frozen around he and zoom] and you'll find they were near equals.

Indeed wally does mention that he is slowing down. However, he only mentions this after already indicating that time was indeed passing. Hence even using your argument, when exactly time began passing is ambiguous.

However, that is ultimately irrelevant. What is relevant however is the fact that during a period in which time was moving (the whole duration of their fight around the world), Wally was able to reasonably perceive and react to Zoom (Zoom was still faster). Hence even assuming that to equal Zoom in speed, time has to stop, we know it is still possible to perceive and react to him fairly well without time stopping. Given the details we know of flashes battle with Zoom, even at best estimations they werent moving faster than Surfer in the scan i showed to demonstrate his perception speed. Hence the reason i think that Surfer would be able to set up the FF before being koed.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
never once did I see it stated that it allowed him to tap into the speed force even more.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Indeed wally does mention that he is slowing down. However, he only mentions this after already indicating that time was indeed passing. Hence even using your argument, when exactly time began passing is ambiguous.

However, that is ultimately irrelevant. What is relevant however is the fact that during a period in which time was moving (the whole duration of their fight around the world), Wally was able to reasonably perceive and react to Zoom (Zoom was still faster). Hence even assuming that to equal Zoom in speed, time has to stop, we know it is still possible to perceive and react to him fairly well without time stopping. Given the details we know of flashes battle with Zoom, even at best estimations they werent moving faster than Surfer in the scan i showed to demonstrate his perception speed. Hence the reason i think that Surfer would be able to set up the FF before being koed.

i also think you may be forgetting that the "whole duration of their fight" also included an adjustment period, in which wally was becoming acclimated to his newly received boost. then, with time stopped around them, they battled for a few pages - and finally, wally makes a statement that he was slowing down/it has been less than a second. context.

it all comes down to what i've reiterated several times: when wally was amped and time stopped, he could perceive/match zoom. when the amp began wearing off, and time was no longer frozen around wally, he lost any 'edge' he may have had.

so unless surfer can operate at such levels that time stops around him, i cannot see him doing... anything at all, before zoom blitzes him.

I was going to comment on this thread but it's already 6 pages deep 🙁

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
you got me with the real life science of energy matter and nothing moving faster then light. 😬

but if you want to argue science i have to point out that time and speed is relative... nothing can move faster then light true but from SS perspective he could appear to be reacting and creating something at speeds faster then light to the outside observer even though SS is only creating something at or near light speed.

😖mart:

soooo zoom may not be able to react as fast seeing that it could and would be possible for silver surfer to perceive the universe around him frozen in time due to his speed and processing power.

if u call me out on this and try to argue it false we will have problems and i will link science lectures and animated scenarios explaining the concept to you.
crazy

I don't believe the speed of light is the maximum speed in comics or real life. I don't accept the theory of relativity so FTL talk is all game with me. I wasn't saying that energy MUST travel at most light speed. I'm just saying that it USUALLY does so it is reasonable that it does in this case. I can most certainly accept that Surfer transferring energy FTL. But I will need proof of it and not speculation.

So the current argument is whether or not Zoom can operate at the point where time is completely stopped?

Originally posted by kgkg
I was going to comment on this thread but it's already 6 pages deep 🙁

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
So the current argument is whether or not Zoom can operate at the point where time is completely stopped? You kinda did comment. 😛 Tell us what is on your mind. 🙂

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
So the current argument is whether or not Zoom can operate at the point where time is completely stopped?

the question at hand is whether or not surfer is able to react fast enough to defend against zoom.

I'm just making sure that's what is being discussed, unless we are just discussing Flash's speed.

Originally posted by Galan007
the question at hand is whether or not surfer is able to react fast enough to defend against zoom.

SS is NOT beating Zoom