Who can beat Zoom?

Originally posted by Naija boy
Ur conclusion is incomplete. Yes it is only when Wally was amped that he could match Zoom. Yes when the amp began wearing off he lost the apparent "edge" (he was no longer as fast) he might have had. However to reiterate it once more, the bottom line is that during the period that he was slowing down and in which time was moving (regardless of the relationship between the two) Wally was able to perceive and react to Zoom reasonably well (though Zoom was faster). This speed level and consequently perception speed level at which he was able to perceive Zoom was < that displayed by surfer in my example.

Therefore surfer doesnt need to operate at levels in which time stops around him (whatever those are) in order to perceive or mentally react to Zoom. Wally showed that.

as for the surfer scan you keep clinging to: can you please show me a single scan depicting him reacting [either offensively or defensively] to an opponent on zoom's speed-level in battle? because i seem to remember the runner [a speedster] toying with surfer like a weak feeb - a showing which certainly contradicts your entire argument.

So Galan, what is your ultimate verdict on Surfer vs Zoom CIS on and off?

CIS on - meaning zoom isn't out to kill surfer? there's a good chance he might slip up there and allow surfer to win.

CIS off - meaning zoom is essentially bloodlusted/out to kill? imo, he'd be blitzing surfer with >>> flash speed, along with superman level+ punches before surfer had nearly enough time to react.

So CIS off is a stomp before Surfer can get away and use his planet busting tactics right?

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
So CIS off is a stomp before Surfer can get away and use his planet busting tactics right?

facepalm

Originally posted by Zeuodin
He'd be knocked out before he even thought about it.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I would ask how many punches it would take, but I'm imagining it would be too fast to even matter. So in your words a curbstomp for Surfer in those conditions?

Ok, I was clarifying, so Surfer can not only react, but he can't see the Onslaught at all either. That seems like a little bit more than a slight Sun Amp.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Ok, I was clarifying, so Surfer can not only react, but he can't see the Onslaught at all either. That seems like a little bit more than a slight Sun Amp.

I see what you mean, I was just saying that seems like it is much more than a slightly amped Superman. So in your opinion not even on Surfer's best day could he go extremely fast and get away? I find it interesting that many say CIS favors Surfer, and other say it favors Zoom.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I see what you mean, I was just saying that seems like it is much more than a slightly amped Superman. So in your opinion not even on Surfer's best day could he go extremely fast and get away? I find it interesting that many say CIS favors Surfer, and other say it favors Zoom.

That sounds like a possibility since neither of them will use their lethal abilities in a CIS type environment, although I believe Surfer has some indirect approaches he could use.

Originally posted by Galan007
you seem to be of the opinion that wally was able to react to zoom in an offensive/defensive way, without a full amp. he wasn't. hell, even when wally was amped with the powers of jay and bart, he could still barely perceive zoom as a blur - let alone react to him. again: it was only when wally was amped to the point where time around him actually stopped, that he could respond accordingly to zoom's movements. once that amp began wearing off... well you get the gist.

as for the surfer scan you keep clinging to: can you please show me a single scan depicting him reacting [either offensively or defensively] to an opponent on zoom's speed-level in battle? because i seem to remember the runner [a speedster] toying with surfer like a weak feeb - a showing which certainly contradicts your entire argument.

I am not at all referring to any point prior to Wally getting amped. However u still are not at all addressing the point i made. Wally was able to perceive and react to Zoom fairly well during their fight around the world in which time was moving. The speed and perceptions he attained at that point are < than those i showed from surfer. Hence it wasnt only when time stopped around him that he was able to react to Zoom because he was shown perceiving and reacting to Zoom while time was moving . Heck even after he admitted to slowing down and the amp had started wearing off, he still was able to perceive and react to Zoom fairly well as seen below

Here he makes the slowing down statement which tells us the amp is wearing off
http://img232.imageshack.us/i/13qo5.jpg/
In the next scan he is still fighting and certainly perceiving Zoom pretty well
http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/2010/14vv4.jpg
All this mind u was done as time was moving again.

Further, in regards to the Runner incident, Runner was messing with surfer state of mind during that fight and it is not even an analogous situation as Surfers problems in that fight came from physical reaction (btw, surfer has shown to fight at lightspeed+ but thats not the point) rather than mental speed or perception which is what is relevant here. Additionally Surfer HAS shown to use his immense mental and perception speed in battle before, like when he mentally tracked an electrical signal when fighting Motherboard 49.7 or when he calculated the landing position of a teleporter he was fighting (near instant travel) mid teleportation i.e after he had already teleported but before he reached his location. Hence applying his mental and perception speed is not a problem and would be even less so with CIS off.

Zoom goes back in time and pushes norrin down a flight of steps when he was human 😖hifty:

But... that would only strengthen him. 😖hifty:

Zoom can't travel back in time. He can only accelerate, or slow down time in his timeline

Now on that I must have misread something, because from what I saw Zoom had the ability to not be there. I thought when Flash was fighting him when Linda had the miscarriage they were going through different timelines at that point. It wouldn't hurt to reread that though if I had mistaken that.

Originally posted by Naija boy
I am not at all referring to any point prior to Wally getting amped. However u still are not at all addressing the point i made. Wally was able to perceive and react to Zoom fairly well during their fight around the world in which time was moving. The speed and perceptions he attained at that point are < than those i showed from surfer. Hence it wasnt only when time stopped around him that he was able to react to Zoom because he was shown perceiving and reacting to Zoom while time was moving . Heck even after he admitted to slowing down and the amp had started wearing off, he still was able to perceive and react to Zoom fairly well as seen below

Here he makes the slowing down statement which tells us the amp is wearing off
http://img232.imageshack.us/i/13qo5.jpg/
In the next scan he is still fighting and certainly perceiving Zoom pretty well
http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/2010/14vv4.jpg
All this mind u was done as time was moving again.

in the second scan, do you actually see zoom trying to fend off wally in any way? nope. by that time, zoom was not fighting back. he was actually egging wally on to kill him [doing so would have completed the 'lesson'.] so if your whole argument for surfer is based on that one instance, then you should try to come up with another game plan.
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fact: even when wally was amped with the powers of bart and jay, he could still barely perceive zoom as a blur.

fact: when wally was amped to the point where time stopped around him, he was finally able to combat zoom. however, we know for a fact [based on previously established showings] that without an amp, wally was no match for zoom in any way [don't know why you're still trying to argue differently.]

fact: we know zoom was not trying to actively combat wally after his [wally's] aforementioned final amp wore off.

Why the hell do you even bother to hammer this point in when Wally, even in his normal state, being unable to perceive him puts him far above Surfer ?