Originally posted by ODGTo be fair you have to go really high up the scale to get a feat better than withstanding the Godblast, so naturally finding Juggs w/o FF tanking an attack close to it, the same, or higher is gonna be rough.
^ Impressive but not exactly comparable to his forcefield tanking a godblast without any damage and only being pushed backwards some.
I think the point Carver was trying to get across was even sans shield he has some very good durability feats and that the Thor showing sans FF is a lowish showing or imo Thor depowered Cain more than than just taking his shield.
Originally posted by NewjakI disagree. In those particular comics, Juggernaut's invulnerability came from his FF--- ie. with his FF, Juggy was invulnerable. Without his FF, Juggy was vulnerable. It was only in later comics that writers realized how haxxed the FF was, and never really spoke of it again(iirc, the most recent reference made to Juggy having a FF was back in 2001. Aside from that, the last FF reference was likely made in the early 90s.) They just gave him pure physical durability instead.
imo Thor depowered Cain more than than just taking his shield.
From my point of view, the the magical-negation cone Thor created only removed Juggernaut's FF...
-Thor-
"No longer art thou protected by thy impenetrable force-field! No longer is the Juggernaut truly unstoppable!"
-Juggernaut-
"You might'a taken away my invulnerability, but I'm still as strong as ever!":
After Thor's null-cone wears off, Juggernaut exclaims: "My force-field's back! It's back!":
This further implies that FF manifestation was the only power he momentarily lost.
Originally posted by Galan007I would argue that Juggs may or may not have known if he was truly at full strength or not. It's not like he has a built in meter.
I disagree. In those particular comics, Juggernaut's invulnerability came from his FF--- ie. with his FF, Juggy was invulnerable. Without his FF, Juggy was vulnerable. It was only in later comics that writers realized how haxxed the FF was, and never really spoke of it again(iirc, the most recent reference made to Juggy having a FF was back in 2001, and before that the last FF reference was likely made in 1991.) They just gave him pure physical durability instead.From my point of view, the the magical-negation cone Thor created only removed Juggernaut's FF...
-Thor-
"No longer art thou protected by thy impenetrable force-field! No longer is the Juggernaut truly unstoppable!"-Juggernaut-
"You might'a taken away my invulnerability, but I'm still as strong as ever!":After Thor's null-cone wears off, Juggernaut exclaims: "My force-field's back! It's back!":
This further implies that FF manifestation was the only power he momentarily lost.
Even when he first appeared for WWH Hulk he thought he was back at full power only to get clobbered. afterwards he realized he still wasn't at full power.
Samething when he shared power with Black Tom. He didn't realize how weak he had become because of it until his power got tested.
I mostly think different writer chose to showcase Juggs' durability differently. Of course he still has his best feat with shield on, and when used correctly the shield is completely haxxed.
Originally posted by NewjakMore writers than not haven't referenced his FF. Heck, I could be wrong, but I think Juggy's FF has only been seen or mentioned like 4-5 times on panel, in his entire character history. Considering he's appeared in a few hundred comics, I wouldn't say his FF has a very good average.
I would argue that Juggs may or may not have known if he was truly at full strength or not. It's not like he has a built in meter.Even when he first appeared for WWH Hulk he thought he was back at full power only to get clobbered. afterwards he realized he still wasn't at full power.
Samething when he shared power with Black Tom. He didn't realize how weak he had become because of it until his power got tested.
I mostly think different writer chose to showcase Juggs' durability differently. Of course he still has his best feat with shield on, and when used correctly the shield is completely haxxed.
Personally, I view Juggy's FF in a similar light as the 'uber' magics he demonstrated against Nightmare: yes, it is an ability he's demonstrated on panel, but should such a rarely seen power be considered in character? No way, imo.
Originally posted by Galan007I agree it's a seldom used power, and I'm not arguing it's standard on him at all times, but I definitely don't think his durability dramatically drops like it was shown in that Thor comic simply cause he doesn't have his FF on.
More writers than not haven't referenced his FF. Heck, I could be wrong, but I think Juggy's FF has only been seen or mentioned like 4-5 times on panel, in his entire character history. Considering he's appeared in a few hundred comics, I wouldn't say his FF has a very good average.Personally, I view Juggy's FF in a similar light as the 'uber' magics he demonstrated against Nightmare: yes, it is an ability he's demonstrated on panel, but should such a rarely seen power be considered in character? No way, imo.
Originally posted by NewjakI don't either. Like I mentioned above, I think writers simply stopped using the FF because they realized how haxxed it was, and gave Juggs physical durability/invulnerability instead.
I agree it's a seldom used power, and I'm not arguing it's standard on him at all times, but I definitely don't think his durability dramatically drops like it was shown in that Thor comic simply cause he doesn't have his FF on.
Originally posted by Newjak
I would argue that Juggs may or may not have known if he was truly at full strength or not. It's not like he has a built in meter.Even when he first appeared for WWH Hulk he thought he was back at full power only to get clobbered. afterwards he realized he still wasn't at full power.
Samething when he shared power with Black Tom. He didn't realize how weak he had become because of it until his power got tested.
I mostly think different writer chose to showcase Juggs' durability differently. Of course he still has his best feat with shield on, and when used correctly the shield is completely haxxed.
When a writer has a character explain that they still possess a power or something of that nature, it's a safe assumption that he's conveying what he wants. Without any contradictory evidence, that's just wishful thinking.
Originally posted by Newjak
To be fair you have to go really high up the scale to get a feat better than withstanding the Godblast, so naturally finding Juggs w/o FF tanking an attack close to it, the same, or higher is gonna be rough.I think the point Carver was trying to get across was even sans shield he has some very good durability feats and that the Thor showing sans FF is a lowish showing or imo Thor depowered Cain more than than just taking his shield.
But that's the point, you can't. Juggernaut without his force field is more or less as durable as any Top Tier, with it, he's nigh unstoppable.
No, Juggernaut being hurt by a flaming torch, Spider-Woman and Storm, getting punked by Nimrod, scratched by Feral, getting depowered by Beast removing his helmet, embarrassed by Onslaught etc. are low and/or embarrassing showings.
Juggernaut being rocked and knocked down by a barrage of blows from Thor is pretty much inline with what we know. What did you expect, for him to shrug it off? Exactly what would support that? The one time he gave any indication of that was during his tie-in with Thor in the Eighth day Saga, but the writer made it explicitly clear that his power was amped by many degrees.
Mind you, I don't think that made any sense as throughout the rest of that event, he was back at his classic levels, but whatever.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.OlympusNot every writer's interpretation of a character is taken as the gospel of said character.
When a writer has a character explain that they still possess a power or something of that nature, it's a safe assumption that he's conveying what he wants. Without any contradictory evidence, that's just wishful thinking.
Just because the writer said that it only removed his forcefield doesn't mean based on rest of the character's history we have to assume his FF was the only thing keeping Thor from pounding him into dust.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
But that's the point, you can't. Juggernaut without his force field is more or less as durable as any Top Tier, with it, he's nigh unstoppable.No, Juggernaut being hurt by a flaming torch, Spider-Woman and Storm, getting punked by Nimrod, scratched by Feral, getting depowered by Beast removing his helmet, embarrassed by Onslaught etc. are low and/or embarrassing showings.
Juggernaut being rocked and knocked down by a barrage of blows from Thor is pretty much inline with what we know. What did you expect, for him to shrug it off? Exactly what would support that? The one time he gave any indication of that was during his tie-in with Thor in the Eighth day Saga, but the writer made it explicitly clear that his power was amped by many degrees.
Mind you, I don't think that made any sense as throughout the rest of that event, he was back at his classic levels, but whatever.
I can't what exactly, you lost me with that statement?
First off most of the examples you listed did no damage to Cain at all or have direct showings contradicting it. Most of them get taken away by the fact Cain still reacts as human to them.
Also Cain sans FF has some very good showings.
Juggernaut has traded blows with different versions of Hulk without damage, Took on Nightmare no damage.
He also took a slash from Wolverine without incident something neither Thor or Hulk or other 'Top Tiers' can claim.
The exemplars' attacks that didn't put Cain down until his helmet got knocked and then Tp took down. Even Thor and Hercules had trouble and eventually went down to the combined attacks of Exemplars.
Acting like Cain's unstoppability and classic durability only stemmed from his FF is neglecting the character's other good feats.
While his best feat of durability was standing up to a godblast with the FF and his low end feats were without that would only indicate such a massive drop in durability if that was only what happened. Cain still has some good high end showings to indicate that statement isn't true.
Mentioned above Juggs has had his fair share of high caliber durability feats even without the attack and not every writer depicted Cain's full durability relying on the FF.
Originally posted by Newjak
Not every writer's interpretation of a character is taken as the gospel of said character.Just because the writer said that it only removed his forcefield doesn't mean based on rest of the character's history we have to assume his FF was the only thing keeping Thor from pounding him into dust.
That's true, but what was written wasn't really contradictory of anything. Juggernaut's can be hurt by Top Tier force without his force field and his invulnerability was attested to his force field from the earliest of days:
http://i47.tinypic.com/35c4m5f.jpg
http://i47.tinypic.com/29uxfus.jpg
http://i49.tinypic.com/14wytdl.jpg
Originally posted by Newjak
I can't what exactly, you lost me with that statement?First off most of the examples you listed did no damage to Cain at all or have direct showings contradicting it. Most of them get taken away by the fact Cain still reacts as human to them.
Also Cain sans FF has some very good showings.
Juggernaut has traded blows with different versions of Hulk without damage, Took on Nightmare no damage.
He also took a slash from Wolverine without incident something neither Thor or Hulk or other 'Top Tiers' can claim.
The exemplars' attacks that didn't put Cain down until his helmet got knocked and then Tp took down. Even Thor and Hercules had trouble and eventually went down to the combined attacks of Exemplars.
Acting like Cain's unstoppability and classic durability only stemmed from his FF is neglecting the character's other good feats.
While his best feat of durability was standing up to a godblast with the FF and his low end feats were without that would only indicate such a massive drop in durability if that was only what happened. Cain still has some good high end showings to indicate that statement isn't true.
Mentioned above Juggs has had his fair share of high caliber durability feats even without the attack and not every writer depicted Cain's full durability relying on the FF.
Provide equal feats without his force field.
Every single instance I mentioned had Cain clearly hurt. Some of them explicitly stating so. Yes, he does have human reactions. It's only human to scream in pain when you're hurt:
http://i47.tinypic.com/2qu3l8x.jpg
http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/6898/xmen21714b.jpg
http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/3061/jug8thdayp30.jpg
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/67610/1397352-uncanny_x_men_194___17_super.jpg
http://i45.tinypic.com/mjvaci.jpg
http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/2757/1918857xmenlegacy219zon.jpg
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/5/54474/1063806-spider_man_016_18_super.jpg
^Those are the only scans that I got but everyone is well aware of the Onslaught fight. He was also stunned by a wind tunnel fan, beaten to a pulp by Captain Universe etc.
He has showings without his force field that you'd expect a Top Tier to have, at least on a good day. Nothing more.
I guess trading blows back and forth with the Hulk evenly is a good showing, but that's still what you'd expect from a high end class 100. What do you mean no damage by the way? As Hulk has winded, hurt and rocked Cain more than once with his attacks as you'd expect peers to do.
While Cain did have his best versatility/mystical power feat against Nightmare, he was hurt by him:
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/5893/nightmarejuggernaut2.jpg
None of this still compares to his showings with his force field. Also, Wolverine's claws use to bounce off of Hulk's skin before the healing factor retcon.
He took two blasts from the Exemplars and didn't get knocked out. Again, you keep listing showings equivalent to something practically every Top Tier has.
Are you trying to convince me that Cain has Herald level durability without his force field? If so, you don't need to, I believe Cain does. But none of this will convince me he has anything close to the durability that he possesses with his force field because simply put, the evidence isn't there.
Anyways, I've done this argument more than enough times to be sick of it.
To summarize, I think it's quite clear, if for no other reason than the law of average, that Cain has Herald level durability without his force field with some low showings, and some better than others (Something that hasn't been mentioned yet was him tanking Cyclop's eye blasts, which I thought to be impressive). With it, he's on a whole other level, and is for most intents and purposes, invulnerable.
You can choose to disagree, but I think there's more than enough evidence to support it. That's about all I have to say on this matter.
I remember when Colossus got the powers of the Juggernaut and some people got worked up into frenzy about Kuurth hurting him. Although I think breaking his bones is a bit extreme, it's not really contradictory to anything other than that. Gillen is a good writer, he did his research.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.OlympusI don't have the scans on me
Provide equal feats without his force field.Every single instance I mentioned had Cain clearly hurt. Some of them explicitly stating so. Yes, he does have human reactions. It's only human to scream in pain when you're hurt:
http://i47.tinypic.com/2qu3l8x.jpg
http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/6898/xmen21714b.jpg
http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/3061/jug8thdayp30.jpg
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/67610/1397352-uncanny_x_men_194___17_super.jpg
http://i45.tinypic.com/mjvaci.jpg
http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/2757/1918857xmenlegacy219zon.jpg
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/5/54474/1063806-spider_man_016_18_super.jpg^Those are the only scans that I got but everyone is well aware of the Onslaught fight. He was also stunned by a wind tunnel fan, beaten to a pulp by Captain Universe etc.
He has showings without his force field that you'd expect a Top Tier to have, at least on a good day. Nothing more.
I guess trading blows back and forth with the Hulk evenly is a good showing, but that's still what you'd expect from a high end class 100. What do you mean no damage by the way? As Hulk has winded, hurt and rocked Cain more than once with his attacks as you'd expect peers to do.
While Cain did have his best versatility/mystical power feat against Nightmare, he was hurt by him:
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/5893/nightmarejuggernaut2.jpgNone of this still compares to his showings with his force field. Also, Wolverine's claws use to bounce off of Hulk's skin before the healing factor retcon.
He took two blasts from the Exemplars and didn't get knocked out. Again, you keep listing showings equivalent to something practically every Top Tier has.
Are you trying to convince me that Cain has Herald level durability without his force field? If so, you don't need to, I believe Cain does. But none of this will convince me he has anything close to the durability that he possesses with his force field because simply put, the evidence isn't there.
But
*Had Molten Metal poured on him by Deadpool he smiled
*Had a gas truck driven into him by Spider-Man he didn't even acknowledge he was on fire
*Cannonball did a full blast slam into Cain he didn't even feel it or move. Not even Glads can make that claim.
*Storm once shot Cain with a bolt of lightning. He simply launched it back at her.
And I say Cain still reacts to a human because his mind still process' stimuli but we've seen many times where if cain is simply angry enough, or doesn't care enough things he has yelled at before don't tickle him.
When has Hulk hurt Cain? The only time I can think of that you could argue is Professor Hulk hitting him and possibly War Hulk although Cain has shown no damage.
Captain Universe? Cain was beating him in their rematch. We later learn from Luke Cage Universe's powers may have interfered with Cain's. It was never 100% proven though and could have just been Cyttorak removing his power or a combination of the two.
Show me scans of hulk's skin tanking wolverine's claws and even still it's a good feat.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.OlympusFair enough you do have valid points I will give you that.
Anyways, I've done this argument more than enough times to be sick of it.To summarize, I think it's quite clear, if for no other reason than the law of average, that Cain has Herald level durability without his force field with some low showings, and some better than others (Something that hasn't been mentioned yet was him tanking Cyclop's eye blasts, which I thought to be impressive). With it, he's on a whole other level, and is for most intents and purposes, invulnerable.
You can choose to disagree, but I think there's more than enough evidence to support it. That's about all I have to say on this matter.
I remember when Colossus got the powers of the Juggernaut and some people got worked up into frenzy about Kuurth hurting him. Although I think breaking his bones is a bit extreme, it's not really contradictory to anything other than that. Gillen is a good writer, he did his research.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympuswolverine was the one that was retconned. that was his very first appearance, he was even using an australian accent (wording and in the x-men cartoon pilot he's voiced by an aussie). he wasn't even a mutant back then.
None of this still compares to his showings with his force field. Also, Wolverine's claws use to bounce off of Hulk's skin before the healing factor retcon.
in the retelling it was consistent with that 1st appearance but it wasn't hulk that was the factor.
Originally posted by Newjak
I don't have the scans on meBut
*Had Molten Metal poured on him by Deadpool he smiled
*Had a gas truck driven into him by Spider-Man he didn't even acknowledge he was on fire
*Cannonball did a full blast slam into Cain he didn't even feel it or move. Not even Glads can make that claim.
*Storm once shot Cain with a bolt of lightning. He simply launched it back at her.And I say Cain still reacts to a human because his mind still process' stimuli but we've seen many times where if cain is simply angry enough, or doesn't care enough things he has yelled at before don't tickle him.
When has Hulk hurt Cain? The only time I can think of that you could argue is Professor Hulk hitting him and possibly War Hulk although Cain has shown no damage.
Captain Universe? Cain was beating him in their rematch. We later learn from Luke Cage Universe's powers may have interfered with Cain's. It was never 100% proven though and could have just been Cyttorak removing his power or a combination of the two.
Show me scans of hulk's skin tanking wolverine's claws and even still it's a good feat.
Okay, one last post 🙂.
The first two aren't even worth noting. The fact that you bring them up says a bit about your position imo.
The Cannonball feat may very well be his best, forgot about that one. That is something that I don't see a herald accomplishing so casually most of the time. Do you scans of the Storm incident? How did he launch her lightning bolt back at her? If this is when he had his force field (Sometimes it could deflect attacks), it doesn't really count does it?
Every scan I posted made it very clear that Cain was in pain/trouble. If it says Cain screams in pain, he screams because he's hurt.
How many times have they fought? Professor Hulk dropped Cain with a gut shot, War Hulk was clearly beating the shitting out of him, Green Scar was rocking him with his hits and vise versa.
He was still beaten back and blue, and was put in a minor coma or some such. Although yes, Cain was getting his revenge in the rematch, but I'd expect him to win in a hand to hand fight. Do you have scans by any chance? I've posted too many low showings, I don't want some idiot to run with those scans and start low balling him, need to balance the scales.
Do you have scans? I remember it being clearly stated that Juggernaut was depowered by Cytorrak because of the good he did with Captain Universe's powers. You need to be more clear and precise about statements like that, if I hadn't actually read the issue, it would have been very confusing information.
Hulk has also been able to temporarily turn Wolverine's claws:
http://www.mynetimages.com/viewimage/5e6f93dafd
http://www.mynetimages.com/viewimage/e87df00ce2
http://www.mynetimages.com/viewimage/7890c6122d
http://www.mynetimages.com/viewimage/40c845433c
Even Death Wolverine was only able to cut him because Hulk ran into his claws with a lot of force IIRC.
Okay, I'm done with this. This time I mean it. Well I hope I do, lol.
